MP173 Balt:Perhaps what I am attempting to visualize is what role do dynamic brakes apply in train handling? Is it best not to use air if possible???using the dynamics to stay away from air brake applications? Perhaps better, is there a Dynamic Braking for Dummies section out there for me to read? Fascinating stuff. Ed
Balt:Perhaps what I am attempting to visualize is what role do dynamic brakes apply in train handling? Is it best not to use air if possible???using the dynamics to stay away from air brake applications?
Perhaps better, is there a Dynamic Braking for Dummies section out there for me to read?
Fascinating stuff.
Ed
When it comes to handling trains on grades both the air brakes and dynamic brakes are used. On my carrier, if a train does not have enough engines to have sufficient Dynamic Braking Power for the train to descend the grades, it will wait at the summit until Helper engines and crew can get in position to Help the train DOWN the grade. In today's railroading Helpers don't only help trains up grades but also DOWN grades.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Good questions, Ed, - the balance or combination or 'trade-off' between air and dynamic brakes - 'cause I don't know of any quick and easy answers. In theory, the necessary braking effort on many grades could be adequately supplied by either all dynamics, all air brakes, or many combinations of the two. But in practice, my general understanding is as follows - and subject to correction and supplementation by the 'working rails' here:
Some of the answers will specifically depend on - and vary greatly with - the number and type of units, number of powered axles, dynamic braking features and capability, and the number of cars / 'Operable Brakes' and 'TPOB' = 'Tons Per Operable Brake'. That said -
It seems there is a preference to avoid using the air - and hence to primarily rely on the dynamic brakes - as much as possible. There seem to be a couple reason for that - better slack control, faster 'releases', less risk of triggering an undersired emergency application or 'dynamiter' with a faulty or too-sensitive triple valve, etc. The dynamic brakes can reliably slow a train down to around 12 to 16 MPH, and sometimes slower if they are 'extended range' - after/ below which the air is needed to achieve a complete stop. But to hold a train at a dead stop on a grade requires the air - the dynamics are effective only when the lcomotives are moving, and that's not what's wanted in that particular situation.
Yes, both air and dynamics would likely be needed for the 2.0 % grade.
But for the 0.5 % grade, likely the dynamics alone would be enough.
Here are some excerpts from the NS ETT and Rules applicable to the Horseshoe Curve area. To help you understand this better, please know that Cresson is a little further west from UN/ AR, which is just beyond the top of the grade; Benny is near the top; and MP PT 238.0 is near or at SLOPE at the bottom, just outside of Altoona You'll also see that Rule L-210. Dynamic Brake, subsections (c), (d), and (e), address some questoins that you had earlier about checking and assuring that the dynamics are fully operable, or not:
http://blet73.org/Pittsburgh_Division_Timetable.pdf
PITTSBURGH LINE - 9. DISTRICT INSTRUCTIONS
A. SUPPLEMENTARY INSTRUCTIONS IN HANDLING EASTWARD TRAINS FROM CRESSON TO ALTOONA
Rear-end dynamic braking will be used when available.
If the brake pipe pressure on the controlling engine drops to 70 lbs. for any reason, the train must be stopped and secured. Train must not proceed until brake pipe pressure has been restored.
Eastward freight trains on Pittsburgh Line between UN/AR and MP PT 238.0, stopping for any reason, will properly secure train with hand brakes, prior to releasing automatic air brake.
All eastward freight trains, except those consisting exclusively of solid loaded bulk commodity cars, when operating between Benny and Slope, must not exceed 6th throttle position in dynamic braking on head end of train.
Running releases of the automatic train brakes are prohibited on eastward freight trains between UN/AR and MP PT 238.0, except when retainers are set in high pressure position.
3. Between UN/AR and Slope, maximum tonnage per axle of dynamic brake is 800 tons.
If the tonnage of the train is greater than the dynamic braking force of the units involved (hauler and helper), less than 4 axles of dynamic braking on hauler, or the dynamic brake or pressure-maintaining feature, or both, fail, instructions governing trains with non-equipped engines will govern.
If the tonnage exceeds 800 tons per axle dynamic braking, one (1) retaining valve must be used for each 100 tons in excess thereof, or Conductor and Engineer will be governed by instructions of Division Superintendent.
When retaining valves are required, a minimum of no less than 10 retaining valves will be set beginning from head end, in high pressure position on loaded cars and in low pressure position on empty cars.
4. Average tons per operative brake must not exceed 140 tons.
Retaining valves will be placed in high pressure position on 50% of cars in train beginning from head end.
From the NS-1 - RULES FOR EQUIPMENT OPERATION AND HANDLING - EFFECTIVE: OCTOBER 1, 2007, pages 52 - 54 [60 - 62 of 143 of the 'PDF' version] at - - http://blet73.org/NS-1_Rules.pdf
L-210. DYNAMIC BRAKE
(a) Use of Dynamic Brake
The dynamic brake amperage must be increased gradually, allowing slack to bunch safely against the locomotive.
The dynamic brake must not be released in severe undulating (rip-rap) terrain or on a heavy descending grade. It can be released with train on level grade or at bottom of grade with the locomotive on ascending grade. When releasing dynamic brake, time must be allowed for slack to adjust before applying power.
If necessary, automatic air brake may be used with dynamic brake applied. After each air brake application, the independent brake handle must be depressed frequently and held at least 4 seconds for each unit in the consist and until brake pipe exhaust ceases, in order to keep locomotive brakes released. When making a running release of train air brakes, the dynamic brake must be kept fully applied with maximum amperage until air brakes have released throughout the train.
1.
When making a planned stop with other than solid loaded bulk commodity trains and using more than the equivalent of 14-axles of EXTENDED RANGE dynamic brake (as referenced in the NS Locomotive series table), the dynamic brake must be reduced to 400 AMPS or less (40,000 lbs. braking effort or less on “AC” units) when applying the train air brake.
2.
EXCEPTIONS:
(2) The equivalent of 24-axles of dynamic braking may be used for designated trains handling only loaded 100 ton cars equipped with high tensile (Grade E) knuckles and couplers.
If the locomotive consist is made up of
• review the completed Form ME-112 that has been left in the cab of the controlling locomotive
• leave the form in the cab of the controlling locomotive in the consist
• discard any previously completed forms
• locomotive initial and number
• name of the discovering railroad
• location and date where the condition was discovered
• signature of the person discovering the condition
• controlling the dynamic brake effort in the trailing locomotives in the consist that are so equipped
• displaying to the locomotive Engineer the deceleration rate of the train or the total train dynamic brake retarding force
- Paul North.
Paul:Thanks for the info.
1. Why the 10 second delay before beginning the use of dynamic brakes? Is that simply a conversion time to go from traction motor to generator? (hope the correct terms were used)
2. Why the restriction of amps thru turnouts?
3. Are locomotives other than gensets, using the energy generated by DB? Obviously the energy is disapated thru heat, which tends to indicate no energy is stored or used....but is it all disapated (wasted)?
ed
Right, if the transition from power to db is to fast, the various circuits/components could be damaged.
Draft forces could cause a derailment. Think about the force at the very front axle of a train when in db controlling 15,000+ tons. Usually these types of restrictions come into play within slow orders, turnouts, sharp corners, yard tracks or when pushing (shoving) trains.
No. The generators disapate their energy via heat through what I call toasters )Well very big and powerfull toasters). The energy created is not used at this time.
MP173Paul:Thanks for the info. <snipped>3. Are locomotives other than gensets, using the energy generated by DB? Obviously the energy is disapated thru heat, which tends to indicate no energy is stored or used....but is it all disapated (wasted)? ed
Modern electric locomotives such as NJ Transit's ALP46 locomotives and Amtrak's HHP-8 can feed it back into the Cantenary where other trains can make use of it.
Thanks for the responces. I also found (somewhere) that DB provides a range of 50%-70% of braking, according to EMD.
Red X's for the masses.
JMP -
I'm not able to see the images you posted. I was down there late this afternoon today. Really lucky none of the homes in Glencoe were hit. What a sight seeing all the cars mangled about and coal everywhere!
I would also like to give a very big THANK YOU to the RJ Corman employee who helped me out when I got stuck in Glencoe as well to a man and his wife who helped me when I got stuck (again) on the way out of Glencoe.
Paul D.North in yur post you made Ive got questions on what you posted.
1) on your post you say employee time table and then i read alittle further it seems you state that rule L 210 and rule L 240 are timetable rules. is this correct ?
2) you posted a part of the timetable that says all eastward trains except solid bulk commoditie trains operated from benny and sloop must not exceed notch 6 in dynamic, what if your engines is 3 dash-9s and are flat dynamic?
3) who gives you the paper work on condition of engines and what if out of 3 engines you only have 1 engine with operational dynamic brakes.
Hey there, wabash1 -
1) No - not from the ETT. I had a little heading in there that you might have missed. L-210 and L-240 are -
"From the NS-1 - RULES FOR EQUIPMENT OPERATION AND HANDLING - EFFECTIVE: OCTOBER 1, 2007, pages 52 - 54 [60 - 62 of 143 of the 'PDF' version] at - - http://blet73.org/NS-1_Rules.pdf ".
2) [Displays-Lack-Of-Knowledge-Dept.] What do you mean by "flat dynamic" ? And what's the significance of the Dash-9's ? I recall we had a discussion about this kind of thing back in mid-August 2009 when I observed what appeared to be a rear helper pushing a double-stack EB past Horseshoe Curve, for which I still owe you a better answer, which I don't have yet.
3) There's a 'turnover form' for NS - ME-112, I think it is - that is supposed to be there at the start of each shift. If the DB is inoperative, a ME-109 tag is supposed to be filled-out and attached. I was going to post that part eventually - no, I already did = see L-210 (c), (d), and (e), quoted above.
Well, first at least you then know that you have only 1 in working condition. If that's not up to the task at hand, then it's time for a 'Good Faith Challenge' - which is a whole 'nother topic. Perhaps that's what this CSX crew should have done ?
Paul_D_North_Jr Hey there, wabash1 - 1) No - not from the ETT. I had a little heading in there that you might have missed. L-210 and L-240 are - "From the NS-1 - RULES FOR EQUIPMENT OPERATION AND HANDLING - EFFECTIVE: OCTOBER 1, 2007, pages 52 - 54 [60 - 62 of 143 of the 'PDF' version] at - - http://blet73.org/NS-1_Rules.pdf ". 2) [Displays-Lack-Of-Knowledge-Dept.] What do you mean by "flat dynamic" ? And what's the significance of the Dash-9's ? I recall we had a discussion about this kind of thing back in mid-August 2009 when I observed what appeared to be a rear helper pushing a double-stack EB past Horseshoe Curve, for which I still owe you a better answer, which I don't have yet. 3) There's a 'turnover form' for NS - ME-112, I think it is - that is supposed to be there at the start of each shift. If the DB is inoperative, a ME-109 tag is supposed to be filled-out and attached. I was going to post that part eventually - no, I already did = see L-210 (c), (d), and (e), quoted above. Well, first at least you then know that you have only 1 in working condition. If that's not up to the task at hand, then it's time for a 'Good Faith Challenge' - which is a whole 'nother topic. Perhaps that's what this CSX crew should have done ? - Paul North.
All dash-9 locomotives and i would say all sd70s ive ran and 60s dash 8s all have what is called flat dynamic in which all of the dynamic is in by notch 4. you only have from 1 to 4. a standard or tapered dynamic goes to notch 8 these can be mixed in your consist but is highly unlikly anymore most railroads match power types
Engineers are supposed to be informed at beggining of tour of duty of what the consist is, Now i can only speak for around here but other terminals are likely the same that when the conductor gets the paperwork they gaurd this like its a million bucks, there is a tonnage profile that is the engineers but the conductors will tell you they need it to yard the train, and wont let you have it. there is other forms that the engineer is to have but never sees, like the mechanical condition of said units. this is what engineers have wrote the units up for. as far as a me -112 good luck finding this and good luck on finding anyone who even cares if the units are running. the clerks dont care and wont go to the trouble to get the info.
the 109 if left on tagged unit is of no use as it only states that someone tagged it not for what reason, so you can cut it back in and if the thing throws fire or sparks you know why. All engineer are to be given a copy of the non-compling engines when the come on duty ive never seen this ive ask about this nobody including train masters will give you a answer, so to make it easier for you railfans to understand look at it this way. Its like having your wife mad at you, your dont have a clue as to why she is mad and your real sure you didnt do it in any way, shape, or form . Now you are dead serious that you didnt do what she is accusing you of doing anyways, but after a few days when she tells you what you did there is no way of getting the evidance to prove your innocents so she wins. WELCOME TO RAILROADING
Dealing with the dynamic issue i would have the dispatcher call the road forman of engines and tell him whats wrong with the units if that is not a option then division road forman. the last person who will tell me to take the train down a hill with out proper power will be the train master. as they ussually dont have a clue to engine operations anyways.
Here's a link to some of the photos I got on Saturday and today.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=53980
bbrant Here's a link to some of the photos I got on Saturday and today. Hello Brian.....Thanks for sharing views of the wreck site. Hope all is well with you and family.
Hello Brian.....Thanks for sharing views of the wreck site. Hope all is well with you and family.
Quentin
Brian, thanks for the pictures. They bring things in to perspective.
What happens to all the coal? Does it get reloaded then sent somewhere to be "cleaned?"
James
The Butler Brian, thanks for the pictures. They bring things in to perspective. What happens to all the coal? Does it get reloaded then sent somewhere to be "cleaned?"
Not likely. I suspect that PA State environmental regulations will require that the coal and contaiminated dirt be removed to a landfill established to handle "dirty dirt".
The cost of cleaning and transportation could well exceed the price that might be paid in what is probably a very limited market for such coal. The original consignee of the train certainly wouldn't be interested as CSX will cover their loss and I doubt that any operators of coal fired power plants would risk the possible damage to their units.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
bbrant Here's a link to some of the photos I got on Saturday and today. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=53980
Brian, thanks for getting out there and taking these, and for sharing them !
The 'mobile home' in the 1st one looks like it wasn't occupied - all the snow around it seems untouched. With how close it is to the wreck, that's a good thing !
As former Trains librarian George H. Drury once said about passing a similar scene - most of those hopper cars are ''looking considerably used up'' !
This a rare opportunity for those of us who are not in the Mechanical Dept. or working for a carshop to see the undersides of hopper cars and take in all the details, unhindered by deep shadows, trucks, adjoining cars, track immediately below, etc.
But I like the last photo the best. That pile of wheels/axles, truck side frames, rails, and gosh-knows-what-all-else, looks just like some modern sculptures that I've seen. Kind of reminds me of an experienced model railroader's 'junk box' . . .
Thanks again.
Back in the day, we would have been out with our coal buckets picking up the salvage and burning it that night.
Things have changed in 40 years.
Did anyone else here burn coal in their house? We did change over to wood.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
MP173 Did anyone else here burn coal in their house? We did change over to wood.
.....Burn coal to heat our homes. Yes....It was totally normal in the small town I grew up in, in Pennsylvania, about 30 mi. from the wreck we're talking about...The home system, was coal fired, into a hot water boiler furnace, raditator system, to each room, hot water gravity circulated {2 story home}....Excellent heating system. Used to like to set on a radiator and soak up heat after being out sled riding, etc....By the way, many home systems I speak of were stoker fed and controlled with automatic thermostats. I speak of mostly back in the 40's.
Item: That home is still heated by the hot water {radiator system}, but has been chenged to an oil fired boiler, and a pump system to circulate the hot water to the raditators. And of course, thermostat controlled. Most are now in the same area....Changed over from coal to oil.
Hi Quentin! Glad I could share the pictures with you and everyone else on here. Just wished the sun had been out but that's a rarity around here as of late. What a site to see all the cars, parts and coal everywhere! Even more amazing to know that nobody was hurt.!
All is well with me and the family. Hope all is well with you and your family too.
Brian
James -
My supervisor has a cousin who is one of the truck drivers hauling the coal away. He said they were taking it to a local plant where it would need to be gone over with a magnet to remove pieces from the wreckage that are now mixed in with the coal. It will also need to be screened to remove any rocks and other pieces of debris. I'm unsure how it will be shipped out after that.
Seems to me like a lot of work to recover the coal but I guess there must still be room to make a profit if someone is willing to go through this process.
MP173 Back in the day, we would have been out with our coal buckets picking up the salvage and burning it that night. Things have changed in 40 years. Did anyone else here burn coal in their house? We did change over to wood. Ed
Ed -
I know of several people who still have, and use, the old coal furnaces to heat their homes. Here in Somerset there are still some older commercial buildings that still burn coal for heat as well as the schools in the Somerset Area School District. Not a whole lot left but there are still some places (not counting the outdoor burners) that use coal for heat.
We didnt have a furnace, but an old stove. After arriving home from school, I would take the coal buckets and fill each and then grab a few corn cobs for kindlin.
A few years later we replaced that stove with a wood stove that really put out the heat.
Most of the house was sorta cold, but I got used to it. To this day, I prefer a cold house in teh winter...unless I am cold or wet.
We lived in a house for several years that had a gravity (air) coal furnace. The cinders went on the driveway.
I was out on our line a couple of years ago putting up a "station" sign at a point where there used to be some industry and a siding. The sign went in about a quarter mile from the nearest crossing (fortunately), and on either the walk to or from where I planted the sign I found a small chunk of coal on the ballast. Since the last freight train ran in the 70's, and all the locomotives were oil burners (state law), I have no idea how long that chunk had been there. There's no other reason than the railroad for it to be where it was.
It's been a while since that line saw a good going over, track and roadbed-wise, too.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Seeing that scrap pile made me wonder. Does the railroad re-use the wheelsets after a major derailment, or are they considered damaged and scrapped. Is there a procedure for testing them or are they simply discarded?
Tom
COAST LINE FOREVER
It is better to dwell in the corner of a roof than to share a house with a contentious woman! (Solomon)
A contentious woman is like a constant dripping! (Solomon)
Interesting question and something I never thought of. My guess would be that if they're reusable they would be reused. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can answer.
We burned coal up until the early 1950's when the natural gas pipeline was extended into our part of the Midwest. To keep on topic (sort of), the coal was delivered in L&N "Old Reliable" hopper cars via the Milwaukee Road. My dad would also buy coal dust that had been shaped into bricks that were wrapped in heavy paper.
John Timm
bbrant MP173 Back in the day, we would have been out with our coal buckets picking up the salvage and burning it that night. Things have changed in 40 years. Did anyone else here burn coal in their house? We did change over to wood. Ed Ed - I know of several people who still have, and use, the old coal furnaces to heat their homes. Here in Somerset there are still some older commercial buildings that still burn coal for heat as well as the schools in the Somerset Area School District. Not a whole lot left but there are still some places (not counting the outdoor burners) that use coal for heat. Brian
Seems to me those wheel treads and rims should have some major discoloration due to heavy brakiing. Maybe it's the photos/shadows, etc I don't see it.
grampaw pettiboneSeeing that scrap pile made me wonder. Does the railroad re-use the wheelsets after a major derailment, or are they considered damaged and scrapped. Is there a procedure for testing them or are they simply discarded?
If a wheelset derails, it is for scrap.
It will seemingly be costly to recover the spilled coal at the CSX derailment, but seems they are at least trying to recover what they can.
Have no idea what it might be used for {or where}, when it has been "cleaned" and processed to remove rocks and metal from it. But I imagine CSX will recoup something for that effort.
On the use of coal in heating buildings: I'd say there are quite a few business buildings and some private homes using coal yet as heating fuel in different parts of the country.
Steam or hot water boiler / radiator systems produce good heat, and with stoker fed and of course draft / thermostat controled, the heating system can be pretty productive....and in some areas, with less cost for that fuel, is still a viable way of doing it.
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