Do you think they ever will?
probably not...but would be cool to see a modern wide cab in Southern tuxedo or in Chessie livery..
What business purpose does it serve?
Does it make the railroad more profitable?
Does it increase productivity?
Does it increase the fuel efficiency and uptime of the locomotive?
Does it help the paying customers of the railroad?
Since the answer is a big NO to all these questions, why waste the money on special paint for a piece of industrial machinery.
GP40-2Why? What business purpose does it serve? Does it make the railroad more profitable? Does it increase productivity? Does it increase the fuel efficiency and uptime of the locomotive? Does it help the paying customers of the railroad? Since the answer is a big NO to all these questions, why waste the money on special paint for a piece of industrial machinery.
So, tell us why UP did it.
UP did it because they wanted to keep royalty rights to the paint schemes on all of those fallen flags they reprieved with their heritage units.
It wasn't because their brass is sentimental.
Ulrichprobably not...but would be cool to see a modern wide cab in Southern tuxedo or in Chessie livery..
Southern is an NS predecessor...not CSX...
Besides licensing rights, special schemes are a powerful marketing tool when used correctly - and not just for railfans.
Oh yes, of course... but CSX also has a rich history to draw from..L&N, Atlantic Coastine..Seaboard Coast Line, Seaboard Air Line...the Chessie family..
eolafanGP40-2Why? What business purpose does it serve? Does it make the railroad more profitable? Does it increase productivity? Does it increase the fuel efficiency and uptime of the locomotive? Does it help the paying customers of the railroad? Since the answer is a big NO to all these questions, why waste the money on special paint for a piece of industrial machinery.If you are correct, then BNSF and all the other railroads might just as well paint ALL of their equipment flat black like Penn Central did...and it sure worked well for them, didn't it?
LOL
So how did the PC paint scheme in any way determine their financial problems? It's not like if they decided to paint their locomotives gold, the out come would have been any different.
GP40-2 Either way, both UP and CSX management have no sentimental attachment to their predecessor railroads.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I hope not. Painting a locomotive is not going to generate any revenue. The time and cost spent would be a waste and certainly would not sit well with 1000's of workers on OIFR.
SFbrkmnI hope not. Painting a locomotive is not going to generate any revenue. The time and cost spent would be a waste and certainly would not sit well with 1000's of workers on OIFR.
GP40-2So how did the PC paint scheme in any way determine their financial problems? It's not like if they decided to paint their locomotives gold, the out come would have been any different.
Well, in retrospect (and perhaps at the time - I wasn't there), PC is the epitome of a failure that most people hate...other railroads that went bankrupt but had nice looking paint schemes are thought of fondly, take the NYO&W for example. And you can't seriously believe that the paint doesn't make a huge difference with public relations! Does it create revenue? No. Does it help the railroad's image? Yes. If you're still going to want to see a monetary gain, I guess it might help in lawsuits if the jury had a somewhat positive image of the railroad...
Also, the 2006 (?) article about shortline railroads mentioned that a railroad's paint scheme helps attract customers. Apparently the Morristown & Erie gained a refinery in part because the owner drove past the M&E's bright red Alcos every morning on his way to work.
Just some food for thought...
TrainManTyGP40-2So how did the PC paint scheme in any way determine their financial problems? It's not like if they decided to paint their locomotives gold, the out come would have been any different. Well, in retrospect (and perhaps at the time - I wasn't there), PC is the epitome of a failure that most people hate...other railroads that went bankrupt but had nice looking paint schemes are thought of fondly, take the NYO&W for example. And you can't seriously believe that the paint doesn't make a huge difference with public relations! Does it create revenue? No. Does it help the railroad's image? Yes. If you're still going to want to see a monetary gain, I guess it might help in lawsuits if the jury had a somewhat positive image of the railroad...Also, the 2006 (?) article about shortline railroads mentioned that a railroad's paint scheme helps attract customers. Apparently the Morristown & Erie gained a refinery in part because the owner drove past the M&E's bright red Alcos every morning on his way to work.Just some food for thought...
UP and CSX aren't struggling shortlines. They don't produce consumer products like Sony or Apple. Their customers really don't care what color their locomotives are painted. All they care about is that UP or CSX gets their freight to the right place at the right time at a fair price.
GP40-2If you order something that is shipped via UPS, do you really care if their trucks are brown or black or white? A few years ago, Fed Ex purchased a company called Roadway Package System (RPS) and renamed it FedEx Ground. Should FedEx have "heritage" trucks painted with the former RPS scheme? Do you really care? Or, are you more concerned that they just deliver your package on time?
UPS has spent large sums advertising about "Brown", even had ads where the UPS truck had hot rod type flames. I would say image is a fairly big thing with UPS. UPS even spent a large sum of money recreating its logo from the one with the package above the shield to the current "comb-over" logo. The package was removed because logistics is such a large part of what they do now.(The book "Uncommon Carriers" gives some great examples of their logistics focus).
I may not care what color the UPS truck is, but UPS sure does. It's all about corporate culture be it a railroad, delivery/logistics company, law firm, etc.
Jay
BTW--UP has always had a strong sense for their heritage, i.e. the heritage fleet and steam program. UP is the only North American railroad which has never fully dieselized considering that 844 has never been retired.
IIRC, CSX was asked by the L&N Historical Society to paint one of their wide cab diesels in an L&N type paint scheme for the L&N's 150th anniversary. They wouldn't do it.
NS does have a diesel in Southern green and gold. GP59 4610 was painted in a Southern paint scheme to commemorate Southern's 100th anniversary. As of May of last year, it is still wearing that paint scheme.
I did read in Trains that UP will be repaining all of their heritage diesels back into Armour Yellow the next time they need repainting.
garr UPS has spent large sums advertising about "Brown", even had ads where the UPS truck had hot rod type flames. I would say image is a fairly big thing with UPS. UPS even spent a large sum of money recreating its logo from the one with the package above the shield to the current "comb-over" logo. The package was removed because logistics is such a large part of what they do now.(The book "Uncommon Carriers" gives some great examples of their logistics focus). I may not care what color the UPS truck is, but UPS sure does. It's all about corporate culture be it a railroad, delivery/logistics company, law firm, etc.
While UPS does go to great lengths, and spend a lot of money, promoting their services and creating an identity for UPS, the market they compete in is different than the market that BNSF or any Class 1 carriers compete in.
Every day, probably hundreds of thousands of individuals make a choice between using UPS or another alternative as a shipper. When was the last time you had a choice to make between using UPS, FedEx, or USPS? Almost everyone in the United States is faced with this choice on occasion, and the vendors of those services are attempting to influence that decision. On the other hand, very few people are ever faced with the choice of which Class 1 railroad to use when shipping a specific product from point A to point B.
I'm sure there are sound reasons for the advertising that is done by Class 1's, but I think directly influencing individuals to ship with a specific railroad as opposed to a different railroad is well down that list.
Jim
Visit look4trains.com
htgguyWhile UPS does go to great lengths, and spend a lot of money, promoting their services and creating an identity for UPS, the market they compete in is different than the market that BNSF or any Class 1 carriers compete in. Every day, probably hundreds of thousands of individuals make a choice between using UPS or another alternative as a shipper. When was the last time you had a choice to make between using UPS, FedEx, or USPS? Almost everyone in the United States is faced with this choice on occasion, and the vendors of those services are attempting to influence that decision. On the other hand, very few people are ever faced with the choice of which Class 1 railroad to use when shipping a specific product from point A to point B. I'm sure there are sound reasons for the advertising that is done by Class 1's, but I think directly influencing individuals to ship with a specific railroad as opposed to a different railroad is well down that list. Jim
My response is to GP40-2's first question in the quote I highlighted.
Believe me, I am well aware of the different marketing objectives between a RR and UPS or any other company promoting their services to the masses. At the same time, there is such a thing as corporate pride, whether one's market is the public or other businesses. Sometimes special paint schemes are done for the employees with the railfans being an indirect beneficiary.
Using the reasoning of some, why not send the new locos--and freight cars--out in primer with the FRA mandated markings for interchange service? In today's society we can let the taggers put the finishing coat on. Might be a sound strategy to improve the balance sheet.
garr...I may not care what color the UPS truck is, but UPS sure does. It's all about corporate culture be it a railroad, delivery/logistics company, law firm, etc.
...I may not care what color the UPS truck is, but UPS sure does. It's all about corporate culture be it a railroad, delivery/logistics company, law firm, etc.
GP40-2 ...That's why they spend millions of dollars painting their locomotives in the exact same CSX paint scheme....
...That's why they spend millions of dollars painting their locomotives in the exact same CSX paint scheme....
At least the CSX is the same size on the majority of their locos--still a little work on the common paint scheme.
I think that there are a number of communities across the country that can identify with a fallen flag railroad. Some of them still have an important shipper who used rails then and now. I like what NS has done with Altoona and makes both railfans and non railfans remember that Horseshoe Curve was once part of the Pennsylvania Railroad.Remembering the past is good business; just ask Pepsi and Mountain Dew and the 1960's cartons.
aricat...Remembering the past is good business; just ask Pepsi and Mountain Dew and the 1960's cartons.
...Remembering the past is good business; just ask Pepsi and Mountain Dew and the 1960's cartons.
Not just the cartons--the Throwbacks are sweetened with sugar instead of HFCS. Pepsi first introduced Throwback in '08 but was in packaging with modern graphics.
I wonder if Pepsi gets the sugar by rail? I would imagine the HFCS they use is hauled by rail somewhere in the transportation string.
Now if we could only get the ButterNut candy bar back.
TrainManTy Ulrichprobably not...but would be cool to see a modern wide cab in Southern tuxedo or in Chessie livery.. Southern is an NS predecessor...not CSX... Besides licensing rights, special schemes are a powerful marketing tool when used correctly - and not just for railfans.
Another tact might be to take a look at some components of advertising. Railroads could be essentially be placed in competition as a 'PARITY' product ( each essentially delivering the same type of product).
whole piece linked here: http://www.wsu.edu/~taflinge/addefine.html
A Definbiton of Advertising by Richard A. Taflinger
"...Parity products have the greatest difficulty differentiating one from another. They must rely on creating a trivial or even nonexistent difference in the bundle of values their target audience might find important to their purchase decision. However, if and once that difference is firmly established in the target audience's perception, a company can often rely on habit, brand loyalty and/or cognitive dissonance to get repeat business..."
Union Pacific has recognized it has a level of value in its rights to liscense its owned rights to its family of predecessor lines, which it seeks to protect by utilizing a 'Heritage Fleet' to build a publics perception of the company. Within its Corporate Culture there exists enough interest in its history and a culture of pride to want to promote its historical importance within its business sphere that it is willing to make the financial comitment to promote its history to an interested public.
Witness the Steam Locomotive Operations ( 844&3985). Anyone who has witnessed either locomotive at a display or in operation knows the public interest and excitement that is shown when these locomotives are out and about the UP's system.
Look at the Heritage Fleet web groups that specifically follow each locomotives whereabouts and dispatches. The UP Business Fleet, as well follows into these catagories of interest.
The very Armour Yellow paint scheme which is the longest continually used scheme in the industry,IIRC.
Andthe individual locomotive memorial repaints, the Desert Storm and the 2002 Olympic Scheme.
Within the Union pascific management there is apparently a culture that recognizes that within the railroad industry there is a level of parity, and they have elected to set themselves above the industry with these activities which set the Union Pacific apart and pay respect to their historical perspective and the immeasurable good will that those efforts have created.
Apparently, CSX and NS have taken a different perspective of this activity.
But some others in the industry have decided that public good will is a useful and worthwhile persuit..Recently a Iowa Interstate has fielded a Rock Island heritage paint scheme and INRD got some large locomotives repained in their all red scheme, and do not forget the KCS, and its adoption of the 'Southern Belle' scheme for locomotives, and new grain cars.
I guess 'paint don't pay the bills', but that good will is palpable
The way the economy is, railroads are investing wisely. Like stated before, it doesn’t serve a business purpose other that publicity, and not even that really. Maybe in a better economy, but not now I doubt.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
On the other hand, paint is paint.
The extra cost of a "heritage" unit would be in the design and non-standard masking and marking - both essentially one-time costs (touch-up notwithstanding).
Given that any number of people/organizations would be likely glad to design a heritage scheme honoring "their" railroad for free, that leaves ordering X gallons of the appropriate colors of paint and a few rolls of masking to make it so. And paint is paint. Granted, they wouldn't be able to simply tap one of the barrels of their existing colors, which might raise the cost of the materials a bit.
The world of lettering has been transformed by vinyl and the cutters therefor. The railroads use those methods now. It would be very easy to get the appropriate lettering prepared and applied.
Given tasteful schemes and perhaps some logistical support, getting a railroad to honor a predecessor might not be such a stretch, especially if you could catch a suitable unit headed for the paintshop in the first place.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BNSF did with every new locomotive and every repaint. Omaha orange and Pullman green (later changed to black) with yellow stripes separating them is a modernized Great Northern Empire Builder scheme. When they moved Hustle Muscle (former GN 400) from Minneapolis to Duluth, it fit right in.
Redore BNSF did with every new locomotive and every repaint. Omaha orange and Pullman green (later changed to black) with yellow stripes separating them is a modernized Great Northern Empire Builder scheme. When they moved Hustle Muscle (former GN 400) from Minneapolis to Duluth, it fit right in.
Good point. The BNSF calledtheir new paint scheme Heritage I, Heritage II, and now Heritage III. I liked the latest version better but that is probably not the most popular. The paint on some of their Heritage II units faded so quickly that they look as if they need repainting within a year or two. The old GN orange used to do the same.
I read the Union Pacific is doing a new GE unit for BSOA. Boy Scouts of America. This is more of a special paint job much like they did for the United Way and certainly not a Heritage unit. The scheme has not been viewed yet by the public, but it should be nice to see.
CZ
I would say that the CSX YN2 paint scheme is based on the L&N Gray and Yellow scheme with Blue added.
GP40-2The latest CSX paint scheme actually is heritage; it looks amazingly similar to the traditional C&O scheme.
There's an incident related to this paint scheme that gives some insight into the issue of whether or not CSXT appreciates its heritage.
In 1992, CSXT decided to name a locomotive for Grafton, West Virginia to recognize the 150th anniversary of B&O's arrival at the location that later became Grafton. The logical locomotive to be named was unit 500, one of the railroad's "heavy" AC4400CWs, because those locomotives operated regularly through Grafton and were referred to as "500s". However after 500 had been built, in April 2001, the railroad introduced its new paint scheme; and it did not want to name a locomotive that was in an outdated paint scheme. Fortunately, it was taking delivery of additional "heavy" AC4400CWs that were in the new paint scheme; and so it decided to name one of those units for Grafton. But then it realized that the new AC4400CWs were equipped with cab signals; and because Grafton was not in cab-signal territory, if a new unit were named for Grafton, people in Grafton would seldom, if ever, get to see the locomotive that was named for their city. So CSXT sent unit 500 to the paint shop, removed all of its 14-month-old paint, repainted it into the new paint scheme, and stenciled it as "Spirit of Grafton". It would have been much easier and less expensive for CSXT simply to have stenciled a new unit; but it was important to CSXT that people in Grafton see a lot of the locomotive that carries their city's name.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.