Phoebe VetThis anomalous cold weather is actually evidence of global warming, not against it.
BTW---most climatologists are referring to this as Global Climate Change.
IIRC the 1970's featured a whole slew of things about the upcoming ice age---brought on by man--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
henry6 If what I saw on TV, and remember from when the Chunnel was unveiled, there are parallel "walking" tunnels, well lit and ventliated, which were used. However, the concept of dragging your luggage up to 13 miles, as was inferred by the pictures, is unimagainable.
If what I saw on TV, and remember from when the Chunnel was unveiled, there are parallel "walking" tunnels, well lit and ventliated, which were used. However, the concept of dragging your luggage up to 13 miles, as was inferred by the pictures, is unimagainable.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
All Eurostar service has been suspended until the root cause of the failures has been found and fixed.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091220/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_train_breakdowns
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
ButchKnouse Ironic, isn't it, that this happens during the Global Warming Conference?
Ironic, isn't it, that this happens during the Global Warming Conference?
Is that humor, or another person who doesn't understand the difference between global climate and local weather?
Global warming causes excessive melting of the polar ice caps, which dumps cold fresh water into the ocean, disrupting the Gulf Stream. The Gulf Stream helps move warm water north from the equatorial region. Thus you get colder local weather in the mid latitudes.
This anomalous cold weather is actually evidence of global warming, not against it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
This is starting to sound like an administrative nightmare. (See Northwest airlink at Rochester, MN). Not only did the trains halt in the tunnel for 6 hours, but they had no way to evacuate and reembark in an orderly manner. Eurostar was trying to get passengers out of the trains but couldn't get the relief trains moving either. Then once they got trains out of the chunnel, they didn't have anywhere to put the passengers (buses for 400 show up at a 700 passenger train). I can appreciate the chaos this would cause, but keeping passengers trapped in a hot, dark train is not the answer. They have to have some plan to move evacuees.
Passenger systems have to have enough backup so that the tunnels don't go dark and the ventilation quit. What about a battery powered relief locomotive? Sweep in, grab the train. get out. $50 bucks says you can't move these trains without power to the computer, etc. Mr Westinghouse would roll over in his grave.
Man made things fail. Though I am surprised that in 15 years of operation this problem hasn't shown up before now. The temperature listed, while certanily cool, are not really extreme...at least not when compared to the operating enviornments in the US.
77 F sounds terribly warm for a tunnel, unless there is machienry contained within the tunnel complex that is constantly generating heat. I would have expected a normal temperature or 55-58 F.
All it takes is one train's electrical to gather water, short out and blow the whole system. It could be that only one locomotive got hit but knocked out the entire electic system. Or even if the frost liquified on several at once overloading the lines...its definitely electrical. But it's never happend before...so let's see what evolves. As was noted by several above any talk of electifying any rail lines, especially in tunnels, in America hangs in the balance. I could go on with more sarcastic comments on those who cast political dispersions on everything, but I won't.
blue streak 1Sulzermeister Reported on Beeb that Tunnel internal temperature is around 25°C. If so that is about 77 degrees F. It is possible that there are solid state components that are exposed to the outside temp and if going into that temp may frost up almost immediately. do not take this as gospel.
Sulzermeister Reported on Beeb that Tunnel internal temperature is around 25°C.
Reported on Beeb that Tunnel internal temperature is around 25°C.
If so that is about 77 degrees F. It is possible that there are solid state components that are exposed to the outside temp and if going into that temp may frost up almost immediately. do not take this as gospel.
The Butler I was told once, all you need is seven degrees Fahrenheit difference between air and surface for condensation to form.
I was told once, all you need is seven degrees Fahrenheit difference between air and surface for condensation to form.
Warm air can hold more moisture that cold air. Cooling air below it's dew point will cause it to release water. In order to know what that temperature is, you have to know the humidity and thus the dew point of the warmer air.
Are we sure the electrical problem was on the train and not the supply?
James
samfp1943 petitnj Apparently the tunnel is cooled by sea water to keep down the heat from trains, air flow, lights and such. I doubt the humidity is that high as outside air is pumped in at either end to ventilate the system. Again, if the outside air were -30 C I would expect the cold train parts to frost up. But -1 C? And we don't seem to have these problems in our tunnels. The tunnels all have flowing water and warm air. Can you say over engineered? Apparently the trains quit early in their underwater travels. They pulled them out at either end. But really there is no excuse for a failure in these moderate conditions. WELL! Some grist for the mill.. This little breakdown ought to open a new thread on the vunerability of electric trains. Sure says a lot for equipment used in the past, and currently on the US systems; although we do not have operational tunnels of their length and transit. Wonder what gremlin attacked the Chunnel Operations? Thank goodness, no life was lost.
petitnj Apparently the tunnel is cooled by sea water to keep down the heat from trains, air flow, lights and such. I doubt the humidity is that high as outside air is pumped in at either end to ventilate the system. Again, if the outside air were -30 C I would expect the cold train parts to frost up. But -1 C? And we don't seem to have these problems in our tunnels. The tunnels all have flowing water and warm air. Can you say over engineered? Apparently the trains quit early in their underwater travels. They pulled them out at either end. But really there is no excuse for a failure in these moderate conditions.
Apparently the tunnel is cooled by sea water to keep down the heat from trains, air flow, lights and such. I doubt the humidity is that high as outside air is pumped in at either end to ventilate the system. Again, if the outside air were -30 C I would expect the cold train parts to frost up. But -1 C? And we don't seem to have these problems in our tunnels. The tunnels all have flowing water and warm air.
Can you say over engineered?
Apparently the trains quit early in their underwater travels. They pulled them out at either end.
But really there is no excuse for a failure in these moderate conditions.
WELL! Some grist for the mill.. This little breakdown ought to open a new thread on the vunerability of electric trains. Sure says a lot for equipment used in the past, and currently on the US systems; although we do not have operational tunnels of their length and transit. Wonder what gremlin attacked the Chunnel Operations?
Thank goodness, no life was lost.
Your right...we should stop all talk of any additional electrification in the United States because of course highways, airports, and railroads using diesel motive power are never,ever effected by bad weather..
I realize now that all the documentation of the Milwaukee Road's Western electrification is all a hoax perpetrated by the Green movement..
Andrew Harper
Bo'ness, West Lothian, Scotland.
petitnjBut really there is no excuse for a failure in these moderate conditions.
petitnj What caused the trains to fail? "Changes in the atmosphere caused electrics to fail" I have a sneaking suspicion that it is more than that. Most likely the ground fault indicator tripped on something as moisture built up and the computer shut it down. Nice design. Anyone want to run that equipment across the Rockies? Temp in UK is -3 to +1 C and Temp in northern France is -4 to +1 C. These are not conditions that should cause these systems to fail.
What caused the trains to fail? "Changes in the atmosphere caused electrics to fail" I have a sneaking suspicion that it is more than that. Most likely the ground fault indicator tripped on something as moisture built up and the computer shut it down. Nice design. Anyone want to run that equipment across the Rockies?
Temp in UK is -3 to +1 C and Temp in northern France is -4 to +1 C. These are not conditions that should cause these systems to fail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8421875.stm
More than 2,000 people spent hours trapped inside the Channel Tunnel after five Eurostar trains broke down due to cold weather. The trains failed as they left the cold air in northern France and entered the warmer tunnel. Some passengers were evacuated via service tunnels to car trains, while others were kept on their trains. Many have faced gruelling 15-hour journeys. Eurostar has cancelled all its services for Saturday. Meanwhile, more snow and freezing temperatures are expected for parts of Scotland and south-east and eastern England. Heavy snowfall caused travel chaos, forced schools to close and cut off power supplies in parts of the UK on Friday.
Electrics failure
Although one Eurostar train is still stuck in the tunnel, there are no passengers on board. John Keefe from Eurotunnel, the operator of the Channel Tunnel, said the situation was "absolutely extraordinary and unprecedented". "There's never actually been an evacuation of a Eurostar train in the 15 years that the tunnel has been opened and last night we evacuated two whole trains to get people off."
Four trains have been moved from the tunnel but an empty one remains stuck.
The five trains were coming from Brussels and Paris, and Eurostar said the change in the atmospheric conditions caused a problem with their electrics.
Eurostar said some passengers were already back in England.
Director of communications Mary Walsh said the company was "extremely sorry" for the delays and refunds would be available for all those affected.
"We will also be looking at compensation," she added.
Many people are at terminals at either end of the tunnel, waiting to make the crossing or to be transferred to other stations in England.
Lee Godfree, a passenger evacuated from one of the stranded trains, said he and his family had arrived in Folkestone at 0500 GMT, having left Disneyland Paris at 1837 GMT.
He said their journey had been a "complete nightmare".
"We were without power. We ran out of water, we ran out of food and there was very, very poor communication from the staff," he told the BBC.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.