"A very poor decision was to use a Eurotunnel rescue locomotive set to tow a failed Eurostar all the way to London. This took half of Eurotunnel's rescue locomotive capability away from where it was most needed. This was the on-call rapid response set."
I guess what Eurostar should have learned is that it should have as many relief locomotives on either end of the Chunnel as there are trains inside of the Chunnel. It would be in Eurostar's best interest to get these relief locomotives in place ASAP. I watching videos on Europe's trains I have often noticed what I think is a relief locomotive or two in strategic positions in the major terminals.
...getting this thred back on topic..
In the 'Times' newspaper a day or so after the event there was a piece by Nigel Harris, editor of Rail Magazine (which is published fortnightly). He said a similar failure occured in 2003 but on that occasion the driver managed to restart the failed train (possibly by using just one of the two "locomotives") and arrival at London was two hours late - nothing like as bad as this times.
For as many as 5 trains to fail all at once suggests that there has been a change to the maintenance regime. I shall be very interest to see what the final analysis shows.
Finally, to all those who think electric trains are unreliable I would say this: Every January, for the last 5 years or so, the magazine "Modern Railways" publishes reliability league tables for all the types of passenger trains in use in Britain. The best diesel trains achieve about 20,000 miles per casualty whereas the best electrics deliver 70,000+ miles for casualty (where a "casualty" is defined as a delay of 5 minutes or more.
Phoebe VetYou can believe the majority of world scientists or you can believe the ones hired by the oil and coal industries. It's up to you, but remember that the cigarette companies didn't have any trouble hiring "experts" to claim that nicotine isn't addictive and putting tar and soot in your lungs doesn't hurt you
The ones that I talk with are NOT tied to a political agenda. They do not think the current talks are going to solve anything as they have become $$$ makers for less than scrupulous individuals. I think that this whole debate regarding big bad man and his entire role in Global Climate Change completely ignores the 4 BILLION year history of this earth. We had a 15,000 year period of relative global climatic stability and we are just beginning to see some kind of change. The early middle ages --mainly the 13th-17th centuries were the little ice age.
Question---what caused the last ice age to suddenly end in a few hundred years? Man?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
An incredible number of people in this country think changing what they call something changes the thing itself. Suspects have been renamed persons of interest, prisoners have been renamed detainees, torture has been renamed enhanced interrogation, etc.
The fact is that the global climate has been warming since the industrial revolution, and no matter what Glenn, Rush, and Sean tell you it is still rising. The glaciers are melting, the polar ice caps are melting and polar bear numbers are dropping.
You can believe the majority of world scientists or you can believe the ones hired by the oil and coal industries. It's up to you, but remember that the cigarette companies didn't have any trouble hiring "experts" to claim that nicotine isn't addictive and putting tar and soot in your lungs doesn't hurt you.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe VetThis anomalous cold weather is actually evidence of global warming, not against it
Most of the climatologists that I correspond with are calling this Global Climate Change.
As it is I remember--as opposed to conveniently forget--that in the late 1970's and early 1980's we used to get a lot of blather about the coming Global Climate Cooling--or Ice Age. And as it was back then the pollution was a lot worse then than now----of course no one is going to mention that
RudyRockvilleMDPerhaps a good analogy for the cause of the failure of the Eurostar trains for me is, or was, my analog camcorder which had a moisture sensor circuit which shuts down the camera's operating functions, except for opening the tape compartment when the sensor detected excessive moisture. The moisture sensor shuts down the camera's functions to prevent the tape sticking to the rotating tape heads. But what boggles my mind is the Eurostar management's disorganized response to the break down of the trains in the tunnel especially allowing so many trains to enter the tunnel and taking so long to rescue the passengers.
Perhaps a good analogy for the cause of the failure of the Eurostar trains for me is, or was, my analog camcorder which had a moisture sensor circuit which shuts down the camera's operating functions, except for opening the tape compartment when the sensor detected excessive moisture. The moisture sensor shuts down the camera's functions to prevent the tape sticking to the rotating tape heads.
But what boggles my mind is the Eurostar management's disorganized response to the break down of the trains in the tunnel especially allowing so many trains to enter the tunnel and taking so long to rescue the passengers.
A big problem is the divided responsibility, Eurotunnel controls the dispatching and Eurostar operates the trains. They are totally different companies. A very poor decision was to use a Eurotunnel rescue locomotive set to tow a failed Eurostar all the way to London. This took half of Eurotunnel's rescue locomotive capability away from where it was most needed. This was the on-call rapid response set.
A common misconception among many people is that Eurostar runs most of the trains that use the Channel Tunnel. Actually Eurotunnel Shuttle trains make-up nearly 60% of the trains running through the tunnel, Eurostar about 33%, and regular freight trains the remainder.
I saw a newspaper article that says “Unusually powdery snow got past the snow screens on the power cars.” “This in turn, caused th snow to melt in the Channel Tunnel, causing the electric motors to short out.”
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Paul_D_North_Jr GG1 4827 at South Amboy, NJ showing original design's traction motor cooling air intake location - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=282251 Apparently these intakes were only at the diagonally opposite corners of the locomotives. Relocated intake location photo: [Will be posted a little later, when Internet access and download speed improves - PDN] http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=268293 Note that the new intakes - up by the pantograph - appear to be on both ends. Also, note the patches in the sheet metal work where the old intakes used to be, at the closest corner. William D. Middleton in his book When the Steam Railroads Electrified wrote that the Feb. 1958 fine snow/ ice problem was cured not only by relocating the intakes as illustrated above, but by using a different insulation for the traction motor windings - an new epoxy-resin type. Ref: pp. 337-338. Also, I was mistaken in my earlier post - the 'French linen' filters were the original design, not the 'fix', again per Middleton. He also said that a few years earlier - in the Spring of July 1947 - 3 freight trains were stopped by traction motor shorting near Port Deposit, Maryland on the 'Port Road' line along the east bank of the Susquehanna River. However, that incident was caused not by snow - but by swarms of 'mayflies' !
GG1 4827 at South Amboy, NJ showing original design's traction motor cooling air intake location - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=282251 Apparently these intakes were only at the diagonally opposite corners of the locomotives.
Relocated intake location photo: [Will be posted a little later, when Internet access and download speed improves - PDN] http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=268293 Note that the new intakes - up by the pantograph - appear to be on both ends. Also, note the patches in the sheet metal work where the old intakes used to be, at the closest corner.
William D. Middleton in his book When the Steam Railroads Electrified wrote that the Feb. 1958 fine snow/ ice problem was cured not only by relocating the intakes as illustrated above, but by using a different insulation for the traction motor windings - an new epoxy-resin type. Ref: pp. 337-338. Also, I was mistaken in my earlier post - the 'French linen' filters were the original design, not the 'fix', again per Middleton.
He also said that a few years earlier - in the Spring of July 1947 - 3 freight trains were stopped by traction motor shorting near Port Deposit, Maryland on the 'Port Road' line along the east bank of the Susquehanna River. However, that incident was caused not by snow - but by swarms of 'mayflies' !
- Paul North.
Relocated intake location photo: [Will be posted a little later, when Internet access and download speed improves - PDN]
William D. Middleton in his book When the Steam Railroads Electrified wrote that the Feb. 1958 fine snow/ ice problem was cured not only by relocating the intakes as illustrated above, but by using a different insulation for the traction motor windings - an epoxy-resin type.
He also said that a few years earlier - in the Spring of 1947 - 3 freight trains were stopped by traction motor shorting near Port Deposit, Maryland on the 'Port Road' line along the east bank of the Susquehanna River. However, that incident was caused not by snow - but by swarms of 'mayflies' !
Paul_D_North_JrI'll never forget the sight and sound of 3 E-44's breaking and scraping freezing rain/ ice off the catenary with a westbound freight one Friday night. We could see the reflections of the flashes from the arcing off the low-hanging clouds for a couple miles before and after they passed us - it was like a combination of white fireworks and close lightning strikes.
Great imagery, Paul! I was never so lucky as to see that, growing up in suburban Chicago. But we had the 3rd rail CA&E and it sparked and popped in snow and ice storms.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
At my age I guess, time collapses in on itself along with the history. One century flows into the other and soon so do the decades!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
The frame cracks are pretty widely stated to have been a factor. Other sources indicate that the PCB in the GG1's transformer cooling oil was becoming more and more recognized as an environmental hazard, and hence a liability and costly and a hassle to handle and document, etc.
But as far as snow - not that I'm aware. From June 1977 to March 1978 we lived in Malvern, PA - at 322 East Broad St. - less than 150 ft. from the ex-PRR Main Line - then and now Amtrak's Keystone Corridor line - just out across the rowhouse's backyard and across the alley along the railroad was it. That was a year of many heavy snows and ice storms - I'll never forget the sight and sound of 3 E-44's breaking and scraping freezing rain/ ice off the catenary with a westbound freight one Friday night. We could see the reflections of the flashes from the arcing off the low-hanging clouds for a couple miles before and after they passed us - it was like a combination of white fireworks and close lightning strikes. We also saw the GG1's going by from time to time - even the repainted 4935. Then from March 1978 to August 1980 we lived in Paoli, only about 3 blocks south from the tracks and the station there. But I never saw or read anything about the GG1's being widely sidelined by snow conditions. Plus, NJT continued to run them through the mid-1980's, I believe. I don't think NJT would have done that if the GG1's were thought to be susceptible to that kind of problem again.
henry6But didn't Amtrak also have GG1 problems in the 70's?
But didn't Amtrak also have GG1 problems in the 70's?
Your memory is correct. from Wikipedia:
Although it is widely believed that the GG1s were retired due to a change in the electric power supply on the former PRR electrified zone, other concerns led to the retirement of the GG1s. This is proved by the fact that Conrail retired their GG1s in 1979, two years prior to ending electrified freight service with E33s and E44s. While the GG1's performance easily met the schedule demands of the Northeast Corridor in the late 1970s, the final nail in the GG1's coffin was an ever growing problem with frame cracks. After a service life of almost 50 years, availability of replacement parts for the locomotives became problematic as well.
From -
"A GENERAL CHRONOLOGY OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD COMPANY PREDECESSORS AND SUCCESSORS AND ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT" by Christopher T. Baer
Feb. 15, 1958 - Heavy snowstorms hit eastern PRR Philadelphia and New York Regions; 13 inches at Philadelphia highest since 1935; fine snow crystals infiltrate air intakes on electric locomotives, then melt, grounding out traction motors; GG1's disabled for first time; by Feb. 17 all freight and most passenger trains suspended; by morning of Feb. 18 only 5 of 139 electric locomotives working; this and following storms in Feb. and Mar. 1958 cost PRR $10 million; contribute to $8.8 million deficit for Feb. 1958; worst month's performance since Feb. 1951. (PR, MB)
Feb. 24, 1958 - Normal electric service resumes; air intakes of GG1's redesigned, marring classic Raymond Loewy lines; J.B. Dorrance later testifies to NJ PUC that PRR has solved snow problem on GG1's, when it in fact has not. (VPR)
Mar. 19, 1958 - Second heavy snow in eastern territory lasts three days; drops additional 11.4 inches on Philadelphia area; this time wet snow downs catenary and transmission lines. (MB, BlltnAlmnc)
Jamie -
Yes, that is one useful attribute of being able to remember all kinds of trivia. Actually, it wasn't all that hard - I've always been a fan of the GG1's, and every article or book of any length about them has mentioned that incident. Plus, it kind of a 'man-bites-dog' thing - the only time that it happened to a locomotive with such a great track record otherwise. I'll see if I can find a couple of 'before' and 'after' photos that illustrate the change.
For what it's worth, that was about 20 years after the GG1's were in widespread service - as compared to the 15 years or so for the Eurostar/ Chunnel operation. You would think that this would be a pretty mature science by now - all of the possible combinations of temperature, humidity, precipitation, and changes in same that would be encountered, in moving from a pretty much random outdoor environment to a more-or-less controlled and static indoor or closed environment. But as you note - nope, it isn't. Designers of future electric trains - take heed !
One of the reasons that the air intakes for the traction motor blowers was moved was that the very fine powdered snow formed only at the height of the original location of the air intakes on the GG1's. Consequently, diesels and other electrics were not affected by this problem.
jchnhtfd Paul -- I am so glad that someone (besides me) seems to have read history... I don't recall the exact date, but it was about 50 years ago -- and every single GG1 quit. Only time that ever happened. They were refitted with filters for the fine snow (which, incidentally, IMHO, looked perfectly awful -- but they worked). For the doubting Thomases out there: you get fine snow into your cooling blowers, then run it onto warmer electronics or traction motors (in the case of the GG1, that's where it wound up) and it melts -- and it shorts out the equipment. Seen the same kind of thing happen to cars, trucks, busses, trains, airplanes... never seen it happen to a ship, come to think of it... all kinds of personal electronics, digital cameras, you name it.
Paul -- I am so glad that someone (besides me) seems to have read history... I don't recall the exact date, but it was about 50 years ago -- and every single GG1 quit. Only time that ever happened. They were refitted with filters for the fine snow (which, incidentally, IMHO, looked perfectly awful -- but they worked). For the doubting Thomases out there: you get fine snow into your cooling blowers, then run it onto warmer electronics or traction motors (in the case of the GG1, that's where it wound up) and it melts -- and it shorts out the equipment. Seen the same kind of thing happen to cars, trucks, busses, trains, airplanes... never seen it happen to a ship, come to think of it... all kinds of personal electronics, digital cameras, you name it.
And the finer mesh of the fabric used to prevent the ingress of the powdered snow required the larger and uglier air intakes to maintain the necessary airflow volume.
Useful diagram with more information on what happened with Eurostar;
Timesonline diagram
Looks like Eurotunnel Control Center used the crossovers to try and route later Eurostars around the failed early ones without understanding the nature of the problems, resulting in both bores being blocked.
Of course they fetched her first...she's a supermodel!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/eurostar/6845882/Claims-supermodel-Claudia-Schiffer-given-special-treatment-on-stranded-Eurostar-trains.html
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
This is the case of bad instrumentation.
The cause should have been found immediately, but we are on day three with no cause, except some speculation about condensation caused by "harsh winters in France."
These guys better get on the ball soon. This kind of problem should never be a mystery for more than a few hours for any respectable engineering operation. I'm embarrassed for them.
Paul_D_North_Jr MJChittick Following is an AP story on the shutdown of the Eurostar operations. Sound like the power cars may have injested too much loose, powdery snow! Uhhh . . . anybody else remember that something very similar sidelined almost the entire PRR GG1 fleet one February about 50 years ago - a unique set of atmospheric conditions created fine powdery snow or ice crystals that got into the blower ducts and then into the traction motors . . . zap ! If I recall correctly, the problem was fixed by relocating the blower intakes and adding filters - made of 'French linen', whatever that is, if I remember correctly. From http://www.fineartmodels.com/pages/product.asp?content_area=3&sub_area=10&product_area=49 : In 1958, extreme cold produced a snow so granular that it swirled through the GG1s’ air-intake filters, then melted and shorted out their traction motors. As many as 70 GG1s went out of service concurrently, causing the Pennsy’s worst-ever failure of passenger service. - Paul North.
MJChittick Following is an AP story on the shutdown of the Eurostar operations. Sound like the power cars may have injested too much loose, powdery snow!
Uhhh . . . anybody else remember that something very similar sidelined almost the entire PRR GG1 fleet one February about 50 years ago - a unique set of atmospheric conditions created fine powdery snow or ice crystals that got into the blower ducts and then into the traction motors . . . zap ! If I recall correctly, the problem was fixed by relocating the blower intakes and adding filters - made of 'French linen', whatever that is, if I remember correctly.
From http://www.fineartmodels.com/pages/product.asp?content_area=3&sub_area=10&product_area=49 :
In 1958, extreme cold produced a snow so granular that it swirled through the GG1s’ air-intake filters, then melted and shorted out their traction motors. As many as 70 GG1s went out of service concurrently, causing the Pennsy’s worst-ever failure of passenger service.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_JrUhhh . . . anybody else remember that something very similar sidelined almost the entire PRR GG1 fleet one February about 50 years ago
Paul....I don't have any memory or knowledge of that, but I do recall 1958 was a distructive Winter season. We in Somerset County had a total of 188" of snow.
Quentin
Following is an AP story on the shutdown of the Eurostar operations. Sound like the power cars may have injested too much loose, powdery snow!
LONDON – The only passenger rail link between Britain and the rest of Europe has been shut down indefinitely, Eurostar said Sunday, promising more travel misery for thousands of stranded passengers just before Christmas.
Services have been suspended since late Friday, when a series of glitches stranded five trains inside the Channel Tunnel and trapped more than 2,000 passengers for hours in stuffy and claustrophobic conditions. More than 55,000 passengers overall have been affected.
Some panicked passengers stayed underground for more than 15 hours without food or water, or any clear idea of what was going on — prompting outrage from travelers and a promise from Eurostar that no passenger train would enter the tunnel until the issue had been identified and fixed.
Eurostar runs services between England, France and Belgium. The company said Sunday it had traced the problem to "acute weather conditions in northern France," which has seen its worst winter weather in years.
Eurostar commercial director Nick Mercer said three test trains sent through the Channel Tunnel on Sunday ran successfully, but that it became clear that the especially bad weather meant that snow was being sucked into the trains in a way "that has never happened before."
"The engineers on board have recommended strongly that, in light of further snowfalls that are happening tonight, we make some modifications to the trains on snow shields to stop snow being ingested into the power car," he told the BBC.
A Eurostar statement said the fleet was already undergoing upgrades and that more tests were planned for Monday. But a spokeswoman said she could not guarantee that service would resume Tuesday.
A statement posted to the company's Web site urged passengers to delay their trips or seek refunds.
The stoppage has already meant that about 31,000 people in Britain, France and Belgium have had to cancel trips Saturday, and 26,000 more were expected to be affected Sunday. With a huge backlog of passengers still building, Eurostar is blocking any sales until after Christmas and Eurostar chief executive Richard Brown has warned that services may not be back to normal for days.
For those seeking alternative routes between Paris, Brussels and London, the winter weather was dealing out more bad news.
Nearly half of all flights out of Paris' Charles de Gaulle and Orly airports were cut Sunday through mid-afternoon, with more cancellations forecast for Monday. Belgium was also badly hit, with passengers in Brussels lining up for hours in an effort to rebook flights.
Tourist Paul Dunn, 46, who was stuck in Paris, said he was looking for alternatives but that information was hard to come by.
"We said: 'Can we get the train to (the French city of) Calais and the ferry?' They are saying: 'We don't know what you can do. You can try.'"
It is a measure of the popularity of the 15-year-old Eurostar service — which whisks passengers from London to Paris or Brussels in about two hours — that its closure has dominated news in Britain.
European parliamentarians on both sides of the Channel have criticized the train company as being irresponsible, while Britain's opposition Conservative Party said the issue was a matter of "huge concern."
Brown seemed to acknowledge that there were some problems, apologizing for the Friday's incident and the ensuing delays, but defended his staff.
"I'm not pretending it went well. I think it went quite a bit better than people say," he told the BBC.
The problems — and passengers' complaints about their treatment while trapped on board — could deal Eurostar "huge reputational damage," said Nigel Harris, the managing editor of Rail magazine.
"They have promoted themselves as the 'green,' stress-free alternative to flying and now they face a major technical issue that they need to get on top of," he said.
Mike
The English "railway Herald" had a picture of two diesels that pulled the broken down train that entered the tunnel from the Brit side and it pulled the train all the way to ST. Pancres with the PANs down. Appears to be some kind of electrical failure on the train.
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