I became aggravated when I read statements that implied something negative. While everyone is due their own opinion, spouting off something in which they had no idea about angers me.
We live in a day and age where it is no longer hard to research what ever subject you care to, and educate yourself. So in my eyes, there is no reason to make such inflammatory statements.
And understand, there are both fans, and rails who comment here. I am a local Secretary/Treasurer, and support my fellow employees, of any union, not just the one I serve.
Norris It was not intended to lump everyone into one category, and im sorry if that is how it looked. And for those who dont know Crandell and Myself dont see eye to eye and infact have been PM messaging ( ok fighting) for sometime. I haft to hand it to him as it was a tough call I am confident that he would like to see some threads go on but as Norris said i think that one was going down hill fast and nobody even grab the air or apply dynamic brakes.
Something that came to mind was many years ago as a young hot headed kid i defyed authority figure and a union telling me what to do didnt set right with me. I came from a union family and for some reason i couldnt pay dues and be happy, also that is why i became a owner operator years ago. and did well but decided to settle down and whe i did become a railroader i also became a member of the BLE then later becoming BLET a teamster before that . so i been on both sides.
we have a good thing going here guys please keep it simple and no name calling . thanks
wabash1 I was reading the post and in reading it i saw where some of the old head railroaders on here was sticking up for the brothers and sisters on the CN up in canada, But then a few forum members Started saying things that would be against the good of the railroaders such as hiring scabs and why did the CN cave in. Now I know why it was locked and I dont know if Crandell jumped the gun or headed a problem off at the pass. Anyways you look at it he made a tough decission. And i wasnt even in that fight. But this is not a post on dragging up who right or wrong. What i want to know is why the members of this forum who ask railroaders question on your hobby why are you BITTING THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU? Crandell I know this might get heated also and there is enough tension here so if it looks like a free for all starts again just lock it down and i wont ask anything about it again
I was reading the post and in reading it i saw where some of the old head railroaders on here was sticking up for the brothers and sisters on the CN up in canada, But then a few forum members Started saying things that would be against the good of the railroaders such as hiring scabs and why did the CN cave in. Now I know why it was locked and I dont know if Crandell jumped the gun or headed a problem off at the pass. Anyways you look at it he made a tough decission. And i wasnt even in that fight. But this is not a post on dragging up who right or wrong. What i want to know is why the members of this forum who ask railroaders question on your hobby why are you BITTING THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU?
Crandell I know this might get heated also and there is enough tension here so if it looks like a free for all starts again just lock it down and i wont ask anything about it again
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Wabash:You are certainly going beyond the call of duty in order to keep this civil Thanks. I have always appreciated your view of the industry and your ability to answer questions we ask.
I have never quite understood the radicals that push the anti labor or the anti business movements. There is a tendancy those movements swing a bit too far (each direction). Years ago I was not attacked, but it came very close to it by Teamsters strikers. It didnt sit too well with me. Today, I would simply avoid any confrontation. It is not worth the risk at this point in my life.
Quality of life for railroaders is a HUGE issue and should be addressed. Railroaders who have discussed this have opened my eyes. Tonight I am feeling really lousy from four days of waking up at 430am....I cannot image what it would be like bouncing around on a railroaders schedule.
I am not going to fan any flames here and hope this does keep civil. The main point for anyone's employment is to receive fair compensation, hopefully for a job you enjoy and find fulfilling while remaining safe.
To all you railroaders out there, thanks for all the time you have spent answer my unending questions.
Ed
I'll opine that it's not a matter of not understanding how railroads work, it's a matter of not understanding how the whole labor/management dichotomy works. In the mid-1940's, fully a third of US workers were union members. It's now down to around 1 in 8.
There was a time that most people could count several union members in their circle of friends. They understood the usually uneasy peace between the two sides (and perhaps the pitched battles, too).
Today it's as likely as not that a person doesn't know anyone in a union, or at very least not one of the more militant unions (as opposed to those whose chief function seems to be to collect your dues). As such a term like "scab" doesn't carry the emotional power that it does for a union member. Crossing a picket line is like crossing the street, not a grave violation of principle.
Suggesting that management hire replacement workers reflects that naivete', unless someone is being trollish.
So, while some have their dander up about the thread being locked, I'd suggest it's better than getting one's dander up because someone is baiting you. And we all know how that works here on the forum...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I think some of the anti-labor feelings come about from people who have seen their wages and benefits eroded over time. They see a strike against a company by employees who they perceive to have it made, good wages and benefits. They don't realize what the job entails. What it takes to make those good wages and benefits. Nor do they realize that concessions have also been made before by those striking workers.
What really gets me is that some of these people have no sympathy for a striking blue collar worker, but support a strike by sports/entertainment people.
Jeff
Bucyrus Also, I don’t sense the anti-labor thing that you mention is going on in our country. I sense a major anti-business thing though.
Also, I don’t sense the anti-labor thing that you mention is going on in our country. I sense a major anti-business thing though.
That could be just as anti-labour as anything I'd suspect. The thing about the anti-business issue is that there have been incidents that reinforce a negative approach to the problem. Zugman's point about there being a perception with railfans--I'd say a lot more than just them though-- of no difference between labour and management seems to ring more in terms of what happens when talks between the two sides break down and devolve to finger pointing and all that dysfunctional thinking. Then you get the thing of "a pox on both their houses!"---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
zugmann I think the truth is that many railfans couldn't care less about the human side of railroading. They only care about the locmotives, paint schemes, and bragging rights of getting photos accepted at railpictures.net. Why? I don't know. I think it is the whole anti-labor thing we have going on in this country. Office workers deserve $50K a year to watch youtube and sit in an air conditioned/heated office, but heaven forbid someone that spends 30+ years in the elements at all times of day and night be able to support a family....
I think the truth is that many railfans couldn't care less about the human side of railroading. They only care about the locmotives, paint schemes, and bragging rights of getting photos accepted at railpictures.net.
Why? I don't know. I think it is the whole anti-labor thing we have going on in this country. Office workers deserve $50K a year to watch youtube and sit in an air conditioned/heated office, but heaven forbid someone that spends 30+ years in the elements at all times of day and night be able to support a family....
Zugmann,
In general, I don’t think railfans are uncaring about railroaders. In fact, I think it is pretty much just the opposite, but it’s just that they see no distinction between labor and management. Both are part of the organization that railfans admire, so it may be hard to rally them onto your side in your disagreement with management, should one occur.
Oh well---I seen threads completely disappear on the MR forum---or posts getting edited of content--
Must be one of those weeks for general crabbiness--
No it was not a good call. While at the end the thread was starting to go down the wrong path, I think a shot across the bow 1st would have been better than locking the thread. If the thread had stayed going down the wrong path, then get the padlock out. This forum has gotten almost as bad as railroad.net in the quick locking of threads.
An "expensive model collector"
Ok now I have went back and read all the posted stuff on the strike and it is as i exspected. The issue dont seam to be Money but more on the quality of life or lack of it., and it seems that its goiing to be the union and its poitical board against the company and every bleeding heart they can find to support them and feel sorry for them, including the public, and dont forget this is the same people you feel sorry for when someone runs a crossing and they hit them and live with the scares of the deaths for life and the same carrier who get sued for millions from some executor of the will.
I Now want to ask the question alittle differant so there is a dirrection to go instead of a free for all.
1) Why is it so hard for the members who didnt like the strike to accept the fact that the union members want a better quality of life. now remeber this has been being talked over for 14 months it just didnt get brought up last week. and could it be that we stand united to ask for this and not get bullied.
2) I use to hate unions also but ive been a memebr of the blet for years and has been the best union ive been in so far. and we do get things accomplished but we also pay for it. is it the fact that we pay to get these things done is it that we make good money because of the unions?
3) the carrier would love for us to be out there 24/7 365 at 7.50 per hour. we have a much hire rate of pay and only slightly less hours, if we fight for better hours this wont take away from your train watching so why is this a problem for the non-union guys to accept.
I think if we approach this in a question type like this we can fit the labor and feeling with a touch of the politics that will rise in a very fair disscusion and I Swear... not to fight or offend anyone as its your opinion i do seek. so i cant get mad if you cut me down. and please keep it cival. ( that from me????) yes even i have my days. And yes propoganda can be introduced from both sides,
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am very aware of the fact that not everyone will agree and is why I ask for a reasonable discussion, I am also aware that a few opinions will rub some very wrong. but i ask no name calling and just the facts. I will be the first to say i didnt read all of what the union wanted or what the carrier countered with. But if it got them back at the table then great things have a ways of working out. But remeber that its only a offer and until its voted on its only words on paper.
I know that here in the US hiring replacements ( scabs ) would not work and is really a scare tactic. and the prez can issue a back to work order, ( not sure if that can happen in canada) but what good would it do. it is flue season and most would call in sick anyways just to help continue the strike. So the best thing to do is sit down and talk,
And Im still wondering why the foamers hate the fact that the union men and women are fighting for something to help the way of life we live? I see more of the desk clerk at the motel and my conductor than i see my wife and kids.
I thought it was going on pretty nicely until somebody took a hardline approach to the thing. Then I saw invectives---in a way I was not surprised about the locking up. BTW there was another CN thing about TCRC and it got shut down--apparently for the same reason---
Reasoned debate ---yes
Hoohaw---uh uh
There are two sides to the conflict. It is not surprising that every forum member is not on the same side. As far as locking threads goes, I don’t see why a debate about labor versus management should be off limits as long as nobody gets personally insulted or flamed.
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