zardoz edblysard I love the 50k plus claims of pay..wish it was true, but the fact is unless you are an overtime hound or work a road job that hogs out every day, or you live on the extra board, 50k is a hard earned amount. Most of us don’t get away from home terminal pay, air pay, short hand pay, unprotected man pay, none of the arbitraries the pre 85 guys get. Ed, FYI: I was one of the pre-'85 guys. When I left the C&NW in '93, the basic day for engineer on a 2-man (foreman and helper) yard engine was $178. 178x5=890x52=46280. And that was back in '93. I don't know what rails are getting now.
edblysard I love the 50k plus claims of pay..wish it was true, but the fact is unless you are an overtime hound or work a road job that hogs out every day, or you live on the extra board, 50k is a hard earned amount. Most of us don’t get away from home terminal pay, air pay, short hand pay, unprotected man pay, none of the arbitraries the pre 85 guys get.
I was one of the pre-'85 guys. When I left the C&NW in '93, the basic day for engineer on a 2-man (foreman and helper) yard engine was $178. 178x5=890x52=46280. And that was back in '93. I don't know what rails are getting now.
A couple of months ago I caught the Boone (former CNW territory) yard engine off the engineer's extra board. The job only had a foreman, no helper. $210.38 straight time, $10.75 short crew and $5.00 for being licensed.
I'm not sure, but the straight time may be the UP rate. Former CNW engineers may make a bit more than that.
Jeff
blownout cylinder edblysardOr, $53,668.56 a year before taxes, union dues, 401 K, medical insurance co pay and job insurance.and life insurance. I'm going to throw in a question---what is a good rough estimate of the average percentage of deductions --taxes and all else. If I'm anywhere near correct I'd be suspecting about 40%?
edblysardOr, $53,668.56 a year before taxes, union dues, 401 K, medical insurance co pay and job insurance.and life insurance.
I'm going to throw in a question---what is a good rough estimate of the average percentage of deductions --taxes and all else. If I'm anywhere near correct I'd be suspecting about 40%?
I paid 32% last year I dont think it changed for this year, Ask again at tax time when all of OBAMAS stimulas money is due to be returned.
Mr. Benton
Been there done that, Dont want to do that again.Ive seen people quit the railroad saying Im going to be a trucker I laugh at them in 6 months they are begging for the railroad job back. thing is railroads usually wont hire you back. The most common thing both jobs have in common is common sense and both need lots of it.
The RR indusrty is so much like the OTR Trucking field it is Scary. Except there we have next to no Unions. Here is what is expected of a Driver in that Industry. Get up from where you found a place to park the night before and took your 10 hour Mandated break. Go eat if possible. Then Do a Pre Trip Inspection on your Rig. Your Clock for the day is running. Then get rolling head towards your destiation get there Wait to Unload waisting time. Get unloaded head for reload point get there wait to reload. Reload then head out. Now pray you can get out of the CIty and find a parking space BEFORE YOUR 14 hour clock is up.
Next day start over. Heading west towards CA drive 11 hours tell dispatcher that after emptying out in CA will need reset to get fresh 70. Stop after dealing with traffic weather and anything else that happens. Fuel and shut down in Big Springs NE. Next day get up again and make it to Wendover NV for last stop before Stockton the next day. Get up grab fuel and PRAY LIKE HELL Donner is not requiring chains and Truckee is being nice to drivers. Make delivery and find a hole to climb into for 34 hours to rebuild hours.
Now what I listed is a normal trip for OTR drivers that run solo between Chicago and the west Coast. With our HOS regulations and lack of parking we really have fun trying to get a space sometimes to sleep. Yet the States constantly refuse us to idle to sleep or close down rest areas that force us to drive tired. On the training standards after 6 weeks of school and as few as 4 weeks of Comapny TRAINING you get 21 yr old people that I would not trust with a Potato gun hauling anything that will fit on a truck.
Luckily on the Nasty Stuff Exploisivves and Most of the real nasty chemicals most comapnyies want at least 3-4 years drive time before they will let you haul it. Can you imagine a driver with 1 month hauling Explosives I have seen it with my own eyes. People do this everyday and for 30-40K a year and the Goverment tells people that have not worked in years come drive a truck it requires no skill. THE HELL IT DOES NOT. What are you going to do when a 16year old cuts you off and your hauling an unbaffled tanker of Hydrochloric Acid called do not make a sudden move if you do Your comapny will be eating ONE HELL OF A CLEAN UP BILL.
Pretty close.
23 17 46 11
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Wabash1, you made it easy, and I thank you for your approach to the topic. I learned some things myself, and maybe we'll both continue to learn, if not in this thread, then in others.
I am happy this has worked for you. I am very certain that the other participants are just has happy and pleased for you.
-Crandell
I think it's been an informative and civil discussion that has no reason to be locked. I feel a bit better educated on working conditions and wages and appreciative of the hard work you guys do. Thanks!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
the truth is you cant hurt them, but you can get there attention by getting into their pocket book and then they sit right up and fight, sometimes we can win but mostly we break even. until we have solidarity nobody will win.
It only seems to me that the guys who started trouble on the othr thread dont want to be heard this time, Im not baiting here But i can only say that you guys was baiting some very good men into a fight maybe hoping it was going to be me. sorry to disappoint you guys ,
Crandell I thank you for allowing me to try and get a discussion and some view points out in the open, and was really wanting to know on both sides of the boarder and also both sides of the labor union or non-union and canadian and US. Im sure that it would have went smooth, but the non-union side didnt want to talk this time. So I am saying if the members on here want it left open so be it, I myself will back away and let it go I might reply if warrented otherwise in my opinion you can lock it down and we can say we tried.and move on.
On my railroad, a Class 3, Switching/terminal road...
Switch Engine Foreman, (me)....$25.4118 hour...8 hour day is $203.29.
Switchman helper...$24.3772 hour...8 hour day is $195.017
No clue on engineer pay, but a little better than ours.
Standard 11 day half, (pay period) $2236.19 or $4472.38 a month..(this is an average) there are 10 day halfs.
Or, $53,668.56 a year before taxes, union dues, 401 K, medical insurance co pay and job insurance.and life insurance.
I've looked at those numbers myself--and the contracts---
SHEEESH!!! How do you guys do all that? The contracts seem fairly standard so I'm not sure why there is alot of hooting from the management side in these affairs to begin with. The differences a lot of the time are not that huge.. It seems a little silly in that the arbs usually end up 'siding'( if that is even the word to be using here), with the unions which leads to my question of why not just go and work towards the dang thing instead of allowing this whole schmozzel to devolve to the arbitration boards in the first place.
I'd also agree with Schlimm--the pay could stand some boosting---
I'm a non-railroader, retired professor, though we were unionized. Given the responsibilities train crews have, the pay scale surely does not seem excessive, if anything on the low side, and not keeping pace with inflation.
the basic day on a road switcher here is 208.00 a day so its made a 30.00 dollar increase in 16 years and most of that was in 2001 after you do the differance on cost of living and taxes we have not made that be a jump in pay
Ed I agree but remember with all you said I was one who told the UTU that if the new hire is at 80% pay only charge him 80% dues and if he gets fired only fire hiim 80%. they thought i was being funny I wasnt.
Ok weve heard from railroaders and as you see we have mentioned some things you non-railroaders didnt know. Now its your turn and yes it may get testy but try not to slam or bait anyone in giving your opinion, be honest and give reasons why and then us railroaders will answer in a calm and cool style.
To be very truthful I have been in these talks before and my dog wont fight this I do want to know what the new way of thinking is of non-union or union haters are. And everyone remeber that this is a disscussion and that if we talk instead of yell we might be able to learn how the other side thinks and maybe change a opinion or 2. Now where did i lay my bottle of wild turkey (hic) hey Ed my mirror arrived who Cracked it?
edblysard [snip] (please excuse the spelling errors, my desktop fried it's power supply, and I am working off a netbook...tiny little keyboard and screen, old fat arthritic fingers and no near vision to speak of, plus I can't find spell check on this thing and no way am I asking my 16 year old daughter where its at or how to use it...she has laughted at me enough already) [snip]
Now there's an honest man ! I know exactly what you mean . . .
More seriously, ed, your points are well said and understood. Thank you. Mainly, once the new hire is past his(her) probationary period, he's got 100 % of a huge responsibility, but for only 75% of the pay - whereas for that same responsibility and with your years of experience, you're getting 100 % of the pay. I could see some justification for paying you more if your experience enables to you get the work done faster or better in some way - such as using some of the 'tricks of the trade' to sort out a yard faster - but I have the sense that a lot of the time constraints are beyond your control anyway.
And I suppose that these last couple days you've had 'solidarity in the snow' with your brothers up north ?
Speaking of which, at some point I'd like to see this thread get back to discussing the specifics of the CN - CTAC dispute, such as the pay raise vs. the monthly mileage cap increase, arbitrating the whole contract vs. just the pay increase component, etc. There were a couple of very involved and vocal members participating in the threads that were 'locked' - I wonder if they're willing to jump back in here with the other specifics and their view on them ?
Thanks again, ed.
- Paul North.
The culture difference I understand. Thanks for the enlightenment. That's what's great about this forum - opportunities to learn.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Yeah, but in the military, your housing and food is basicly covered, along with your medical.
And you were paid more as your rank and job responsibilities increased.
An in the real world, your pay increases as your job skill improves, and as your responsibilities increase and you move up the job ladder, holding ever increasing and more skill needed jobs.
But, what if after 90 days, you were expected to perform the exact same duties, and assume the exact same responisibilites as a 30 year vet?
Your a fireman, so what if, fresh out of rookie traing, you were expected to act as captain of your station, make all the decisions, and assume full responsibility for the rest of the crew and your equipment?
And here there are no refreshier courses, no job classes, no form of formal continuing job education.
I dont think a guy who is expected to perform the exact same job as I do, at the exact same level and under the exact same conditions should be paid one penny less than I am.
So, if there was a rank system in place, maybe things would be different, but after 90 days, that kid is doing the same job as I am, and for all intents and purposes holds the same "rank" as I a have, he pays the same amount in medical insurance, the same tier 1 and tier 2 taxes, the same union dues, carries the same job title and performs the same job as I do, so...
I understand where your coming from, Larry, but there is a difference inside the industry as opposed to the outside world.
We have 2 ranks as it were...conductor, or engineer, although some local contracts still allow for brakemen, and some Class 3 roads, such as mine, have formen and helper titles, but beyond that, we are all expected to do the exact same job under the same conditions.
My offical title is Switch Engine Foreman, we dont have the title of conductor here,but, because I may have to go to one of UPs yards to get a train, I have to be conversant and trained in UPs safety rules and regs, BNSFs also, so I have to know both of their rule books.
The kid fresh over his derail may get a yard to yard transfer run off the extra board...now he barely knows how to stay alive here on our property, and he is headed for UPs Englewood to yard and pull a transfer back...explain to me why he should not be paid the same as I am...
In the military, your job responsibilities are determined by the Uniform Code of Military Performance...the longer you are in, and the higher in rank you advance, the higher the pay grade.
In the real world, your hired as a rookie, given work that matches your skill level, and as you learn the business and apply yourself, you advance in job titles and responsibility, so your pay or wage increases.
You don't expect a new squid to have anywhere near the knowledge a CPO has, and you dont pay him the same because of that.
But out here, after 90 days, your handed a train sheet, pushed out the door, and the entire train is your responsibility, from the EOT to the locomotive handbrake, your the guy in charge.
Same goes for engineers...you pass your engineer certification, and on day one, you are expected to be able to safely handle and control a empty stack train or a loaded grain train, or a switch cut with zero air brakes.
There is no offical break in or learning curve beyond the inital training...once your marked up the whole thing your ball of wax, and you better get it right the first time or your fired...or some one gets hurt or killed.
(please excuse the spelling errors, my desktop fried it's power supply, and I am working off a netbook...tiny little keyboard and screen, old fat arthritic fingers and no near vision to speak of, plus I can't find spell check on this thing and no way am I asking my 16 year old daughter where its at or how to use it...she has laughted at me enough already)
I have a little more to add to this, but work calls, so I will be back later.
and yes, there is a pay scale difference between union shops, open shops, Class 3, 2 and 1 roads, but the job responsibilities on each are different.
Ed - Not to be contrarian, but the method of pay you mention is very common.
The only difference is that most people hire on at some base pay level and then get raises.
For sake of argument, let's assume that your full pay is $10.
That means a new hire gets $7.50, with bumps as described.
The rest of us would get hired for our non-railroad job at $7.50.
After 90 days, a 6.67% raise takes us up to $8.00.
At the end of the first year we get a 6.25% raise - now we're up to $8.50.
Succeeding years we get raises at 5%, until we reach $10.00, after which we might get cost of living increases.
Nothing out of the ordinary there. That's essentially how I got paid in the military, and how I got paid as a government employee. In fact, that's how I got paid as a laborer at a large concession stand right after high school.
It all depends on how you approach it.
Ed well said and if i can add to it, As stated for Ed to make big money he has to go on the road or make 12 hrs every night. Now I make 70k sometimes more but i have a trade off. I see more of my conductor and the motel clerk than i do my wife, Is the money worth the time away from home, not really but my bills at this time dictate what i work, Then you have trainmasters that want to fire you or write you up to justify thier jobs. How about the fact that i cant have a luch period on a thru frieght or a local. you are on duty 12 hrs and no lunch. things are getting better and we fight everyday to make things better that is why we pay the dues and if it wasnt for the men we elected to fight for us or jobs or job conditions would be worse
Going to jump in here for just a bit, we have had a similar discussion before.
Both unions and management need the antagonistic attitude of the other to justify their respective positions.
Middle management wants it, because it allows them to treat the union guys as something akin to a third column, sorta.
And it allows the union guys to treat everything management wants or expects with suspicion and distrust.
Both sides feed their fears and egos, and those of their peers, off the battle, both sides use this to justify their respective combative positions.
Think of trainmasters, roadmasters and such as NCOs, and Division Supers, VPs and such upward as commissioned officers.
As long as the non-coms get the work done under budget, the brass could really care less how it happens.
Upper management intentionally distances itself from all of this, in order to be able to claim they had no idea any abuses were happening.
This is especially true when the officers did not work their way up from the ranks, but were hired from outside the industry because they then tend to insulate themselves from the nuts bolts and grease of the job.
Think plausible deniability.
And there is always the claim, like the one already mentioned, that we,(T&E employees) are paid a great wage as compensation for the hardships.
Here are some things that might alter you perception of a fair wage system.
After taking into account inflation, our wages have increased about $3.00 an hour since 1985.
The national minimum wage has increased more in the same amount of time.
When I hired on, there was a tier system to pay…new hires worked at 75% pay for a 90 day probationary period(called a derail period, where they could be turned or fired for any reason professional or otherwise.
After the 90 days were up, we were paid 80% of full pay, after the first year, we go to 85%, and it increased by 5% yearly till you got to 100% full pay.
Know of any other major industry that treats employees like that?
You had to put in 5 years to get full pay.
The UTU fought this for years, and it was just recently that the national contract was modified to allow new hires to go to 100% full pay after the 90 probation.
No one hired after the 1985 contract are entitled to any of the perks or arbitraries everyone seems to think we get.
I love the 50k plus claims of pay..wish it was true, but the fact is unless you are an overtime hound or work a road job that hogs out every day, or you live on the extra board, 50k is a hard earned amount.
Most of us don’t get away from home terminal pay, air pay, short hand pay, unprotected man pay, none of the arbitraries the pre 85 guys get.
And keep in mind that all of the Class 1 roads each have 1000 plus guys off on furlough, which means that the guys that are still here have to pick up the slack and do the extra work those guys would have…and with the new safety rule on hours of service, most of us don’t hog out or earn the full 12 hours we are allowed, and trust me, even riding for 12 hours can be fatiguing.
If you want to see what our contract says, and what we really get paid for standing out in the crud, google the UTU national labor contract, or the BLET national contract, and simply read it/
The hurtful thing about management/labor issues and strikes, "replacement" workers, etc. is that so many manufacturing and service jobs have been "outsourced" to India, China, Viet Nam... Perhaps the climate isn't anti-business or anti-labor so much as it's "anti-people."
zugmann I think the truth is that many railfans couldn't care less about the human side of railroading. They only care about the locmotives, paint schemes, and bragging rights of getting photos accepted at railpictures.net. Why? I don't know. I think it is the whole anti-labor thing we have going on in this country. Office workers deserve $50K a year to watch youtube and sit in an air conditioned/heated office, but heaven forbid someone that spends 30+ years in the elements at all times of day and night be able to support a family....
Why? I don't know. I think it is the whole anti-labor thing we have going on in this country. Office workers deserve $50K a year to watch youtube and sit in an air conditioned/heated office, but heaven forbid someone that spends 30+ years in the elements at all times of day and night be able to support a family....
Uh-oh, I think I got a problem here. I couldn't tell you which paint scheme is called what on any of the majors [except for CP's 'beaver' emblem and CN's 'NA' version - what the heck is a CSX 'Bright Future' anyway ?], it's a darn good thing for me that NS paints the loco model designations on the sides of the cabs, and RP.net won't accept my photos - so I might not be a railfan after all ???
wabash1 said - "3) the carrier would love for us to be out there 24/7 365 at 7.50 per hour. we have a much hire rate of pay and only slightly less hours, . . ."
I happen to think that's the biggest personnel problem facing the industry, and that it can be addressed a lot better than it is, such as with CN's 'scheduled railroad' approach, or certain call 'windows' each day to keep the circadian rhythyms more or less in sync, etc. But I'm not on the inside enough to have enough facts and knowledge to make that case, and there are too many here who seem claim that it'll never work because of random factors such as weather, grade crossing accidents, derailments, delays of inbound trains and connections, trackwork, etc., etc., as if 1 exception would wreck the entire system, so I haven't yet been terribly vocal about it. But I do concur with MP173/ ed on my respect for those who have to do it - and I think that all management should have to do it for 2 weeks or a month each year, just like annual training in the military reserves - then we'll see how fast and how much it can get changed !
The $7.50 per hour thing - that would last only a couple months, I believe. Then the unreliability and lack of capability of most of the people who are willing to work for that would come to the surface, operations would fall apart in may ways, and then the management would start looking for an 'out' or to put the previous set-up back in place. Even the anti-labor Trains columnist from the 1960's and 1980's John G. Kneiling felt that the 'train drivers' should be earning in the $25 per hour range then - which would be $75 to $100 an hour today. I've personally seen that happen when a non-union low-wage operation replaced a union-scale crew. The actual labor dollars to complete the projects to the same level of quality was about the same - it just took about twice as many man-hours, and hence twice as long overall, with the less capable and less motivated low-wage crew. But as a result, their equipment charges were almost twice as high, so net, it was more expensive. Sometimes 'you do get what you pay for' - or not. This is not to say that all unions and union shops are 'nirvana' and models of productivity - there needs to be some connection to the real world and competitiveness. For commodity labor in bulk, where lots of supervision and tech support can be there with the workforce all the time such as on a factory floor, maybe that low-wage 'business model' works. But for the 'on-call' 24 x 360 or so, independently operating without immediate local supervision, resourceful and creative people needed for the best productivity in the high-tech and complex world of today's mainline operations, it seems to me that the carriers would be better off with more highly qualified and motivated people who have the ability to take the initiative and action, rather than waiting to be told by some manager exactly what to do. It would be an interesting actual experiment to run in the real world, that's for sure . . .
Paul_D_North_JrThough I have difficulty believing that wabash1 really started this thread - what, were you kidnapped by aliens, man ?
Murray The comments made in the previous thread by a poster who desired that CN "break the union" were not at all helpful, and were in my humble opinion purposefully inflamatory.
I agree. Perhaps there was another or 'hidden' agenda there.
What would have been more useful is to ask simply ''Why ?'' he felt that way, or better yet, ''What of the union's bargaining demands in the current dispute led or justified him in feeling that way ?''. Perhaps then we could have moved beyond that rhetoric or anti-union bias into the merits of each side's positions in this dispute, etc. - or not, if that's all he wanted to say about it. But at least then we would have known that.
This so far appears to be a much more civilized discussion* of the dispute. For myself, 'I don't have a dog in this fight', and am willing to listen to/ read the viewpoints of both sides. Actually, I thought that the reported bargaining positions and tactics of both the union and CN seemed reasonable, and not all that far apart. I would welcome a discussion of the pros and cons of each, and what the approaches that were advanced to resolve it. For example - would the current Canadian government likely favor one side or the other if it had to legislate a solution ?
*Though I have difficulty believing that wabash1 really started this thread - what, were you kidnapped by aliens, man ? Nahh - I've always thought you have a wise aspect to your character.
One point we make at our company is that there are certain issues around safety----and our clients health--not to put ourselves and/or others in harms way. If you are sick --stay home is one---many of our clients have compromised immune systems--no sense in gong to work if you have a flu---they'll get worse and then what? Sick days are such that they're covered---that kind of thing-
zardozAll railroaders must have the willingness and ability to put up with sometimes terrible working conditions (ever try to read a switch list or hang on to a grab-iron in a driving rain when the temperature is 35F degrees and the wind is 40mph? Or try to walk the ballast in 3' of snow carrying a wrench, air hose, and/or knuckle? Or weld a switch frog in -40 degree wind chill? Or try to find a broken bond wire in 1 mile of track covered with 2' of snow?). Management would do well to realize the excellent assets they have in their dedicated employees
I've done construction jobs in weather somewhat similar to this---don't think that I'd want to do that in my general condition now!! That is what these guys go through a lot---up here--
I was an engineer for 20 years. I left the railroad in 1993 because of the lousy working conditions (hours, not environment). The jobs I've had since then have been in various lower levels of management.
I mention the above to illustrate that I feel I can fairly well see both sides of the controversy. Believe me when I say that I fully appreciate the railroader's side of the situation, and understand the management side as well.
However, the reality of today's situation is such that with 10%+ unemployment there are thousands of people willing to take on those working conditions to keep their family fed and housed. Many, if not most, of those 10% would be willing to give up holidays at home for the $50K+ yearly wages.
And so, considering the plight of so many unemployed, it is difficult to generate much sympathy for today's railroader. In many ways they ought to be thankful that they have any job. not to mention such a good paying job.
Of course on the flip side, management should, if just from the humanist perspective, make more of an effort to keep their current employees healthy and happy. It is well researched that good rest is essential for a properly functioning mind and body, and that a rested employee is a much safer employee. Few people are born good railroaders, most have to be extensively trained; from that perspective alone it is in the railroads best interest to try to keep their employees content.
All railroaders must have the willingness and ability to put up with sometimes terrible working conditions (ever try to read a switch list or hang on to a grab-iron in a driving rain when the temperature is 35F degrees and the wind is 40mph? Or try to walk the ballast in 3' of snow carrying a wrench, air hose, and/or knuckle? Or weld a switch frog in -40 degree wind chill? Or try to find a broken bond wire in 1 mile of track covered with 2' of snow?). Management would do well to realize the excellent assets they have in their dedicated employees.
The comments made in the previous thread by a poster who desired that CN "break the union" were not at all helpful, and were in my humble opinion purposefully inflamatory.
I kinda wondered about that because it seemed almost like a carry over from an earlier(?) thread about the CN thing----
I do agree with RRKen on that one--I also support the unions here as well----I'm not involved in RR but I've been involved in enough side stuff---dealing with injured people from accidents etc --- that I appreciate what these guys go through--
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