Sawtooth500Living in Chicago, there are plenty of great railroading spots that unfortunately are located in seedy neighborhoods, and when I go to some of these places I am definitely on edge regarding my surroundings. Now how about the experiences of a train crew? Say they are doing some switching and it's in a seedy neighborhood - the conductor could be by himself, hundreds of feet from the engine coupling/uncoupling cars. My question is are the local hoodlums usually just content with spraying the train with graffiti or do they ever harass the train crews too?
its like anything else go looking for trouble and it will find you. Ive never been bothered but i know others who have. most generally i get offers from prostitues more than others trying to rob or fight.
Like Wabash, generally, I would just get come ons from prostitues. I've never been actively harassed, but I know people that were attacked on the job.
I did, however, work in a location where gun fire was frequent. I don't know if they were actively shooting at me or not, but either way it's extremely unnerving to hear gunshots on the other side of a boxcar. It's the only place I worked where we were told to not use our lanterns at night.
Nick
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If a train crew member, like say a switch person, feels like he or she is unsafe on the job, can he or she carry a firearm or other weapon with him or her wile working?
I imagine that there are rules about that since 9/11 occurred.
Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
I seriously doubt if firearms would be allowed by crew, but I wonder if a crewman would be allowed to carry a good professonal type pepper spray cannister.......? That should be of some help in mentioned circumstances.
Quentin
would you take a can of pepper sprey to a gun fight? The truth is even before 911 the possession of firearms on railroad property is against the rules BUT!!!! rules are ment to be broken and they are not allowed in our grips and if my gun is in my grip and closed they wont know any better, its like the tape recorder i have going that they know nothing of, until its my word against thiers and the tape wins.... just remeber we are in dangerous areas it does not mean i cant defend myself and my guns i take to work are throw aways meaning not registered to me
wabash1would you take a can of pepper sprey to a gun fight?
......Of course not....! I didn't mean to imply to use it up against a looming gun....But that it might help in circumstances if a couple misbehavers are close with intention to harrass the employee doing his {switching}, job.
I carried a .38 snubbie in my ground pounding days- never had to use it in self defense but it was comforting to know it was in my pocket.
Most carriers rules do not permit normal employees to carry firearms. The possession of knives and clubs can be considered normal tools necessary for performance of routine duties.
A trainman may need the knife to cut away a air hose or use the club to assist in gaining leverage on a hand brake.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
bubbajustin If a train crew member, like say a switch person, feels like he or she is unsafe on the job, can he or she carry a firearm or other weapon with him or her wile working? I imagine that there are rules about that since 9/11 occurred. Justin
No, NO, NO!!! We can't bring weapons to work. I remember working about 20 feet from the Mexican border. The Border Patrol escorted us in to our work are and then watched over us. We were informed that there had recently been a firefight between the Border Patrol and some folks on the other side of the fence. Lemme tell you, it was reassuring to know that should we come under fire the Border Partol was prepared lay down cover fire for us with PAINTBALL guns!!!
I'm sure the fire fight between the Border Patrol and the guys across the border was with bullets from both sides. But, when they were protecting us they were armed with paintball guns. I'm sure they had more lethal weapons at their disposal.
Bottom line is that the railroad is far less concerned with our safety than we are even though they talk a good story about safety. At the end of the day production is all that matters. If they can't protect us we shouldn't be out there. FYI, Utah recently passed a state law that says we can have firearms in our vehicles on company property even though the company says we can't. Even though I don't travel with a weapon I would like to see our right to bear arms in order to protect ourselves be protected. Lord knows we get sent to enough places where we are not safe.
A bit of a side note, but I worked with one engineer who told me a fusee works well as a defense weapon. Said when he was working in a yard in a bad neighborhood, he'd keep fusees handy, and if he saw the outline of a person approaching him, he'd light it, and that was usually enough to make the person turn around and head the other way. Then again, I'm sure if a firearm were involved, the fusee would be grossly inadequate.
Lesson No. 1 for a new railroader: A fusee isn't the solution to every problem, but you'd be surprised how many problems it does solve. Just hold the thing away from your face: The smoke that comes off those things is noxious, and if you catch a lung full, your chest will burn for hours.
In '99 I attended a TRRA hiring "fair" and one of the items mentioned by the TRRA folks was the potential dangers of criminal activity while working in East St Louis. After workin in E. St. Louis doing OP telecommunications work, the perception of danger was not unfounded. We were armed while doing any work down there, and made sure to be out of town by 1500. I know of incidents involving people working down there (such as utility workers and contractors being mugged), but I don't recall anything about rail workers having any problems there.
Sometimes I wonder how one would protect themselves in the healthcare field---I have worked in some dubious neighbourhoods at times----we can't even use pepperspray---although I've used it once---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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Carrying an inspector's combination track gauge/ level, with the elevation rule sticking out, and maybe a spike maul - or my favorite, a brush hook - plus being dressed in working clothes are a couple factors that perhaps kept me from ever having a bad encounter, even though I was often out there solo. Philly - all parts, Wilmington, and surounding area out about 50 miles, mostly, in case you're wondering.
- Paul North.
My son and the rest of his FD engine crew were out for a bite to eat when they encountered a delivery driver (OTR) who had "High Crime Area" stamped on his delivery ticket. He was wondering where it was and they told him he was in it...
They were in SE DC...
As for health care workers - we lost an EMT to a gunshot wound in a small town (very much like what many of us live in) very near here last January. Pepper spray wouldn't have worked.
Our Polar Express workers have voiced their concern about leaving the train after the second trip - which is well after dark. It's in the old NYC yard, but it's also fairly open, so the threat is a lot less than it could be.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
blownout cylinder Sometimes I wonder how one would protect themselves in the healthcare field---I have worked in some dubious neighbourhoods at times----we can't even use pepperspray---although I've used it once---
As a former volunteer Firefighter/EMT we were taught how to protect ourselves. You always want to have something such as an oxygen bottle or medical kit close by so you can use it as a shield or weapon if need be. You also want to make sure that you don't have anyone between you and the exit to a building in any threatening situation. Situational awareness is huge because your safety is ALWAYS more important than the safety of anyone you are coming to aid because as a medical responder you didn't put the patient in the situation that they are in.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR people would somehow know which boxes to hit,
I found this to be an interesting thread to read, as I have sometimes also wondered about these things. Its a shame to think someone could be in possible danger just doing their job.
PigFarmer1 You always want to have something such as an oxygen bottle or medical kit close by so you can use it as a shield or weapon if need be. You also want to make sure that you don't have anyone between you and the exit to a building in any threatening situation. Situational awareness is huge because your safety is ALWAYS more important than the safety of anyone you are coming to aid because as a medical responder you didn't put the patient in the situation that they are in.
This is good information to know even if I'm not necessarily using the type of equipment you are having in that case--the situational awareness is the first thing in our case----doing PSW---we have another type of issue as well---involving unstable individuals at times--
Carl's comments above reminded me of the mostly photo article on pages 48-49 of the 'current' - January 2010 - Trains titled "Trains: a rolling playground?" by Nick Suydam, which shows a bunch of kids hitching short rides on the freight cars of a westbound CN freight train next to the ''Ping Tom Park" in Chicago's Chinatown, at the 18th Street overpass. When the kids saw the photographer, they threw rocks at him !
Back in the mid-1990s there was a lengthy article on railroad police in Trains, which was largely written around the Chicago operations:
Chicago knights Trains, February 1993 page 62 Chicago & North Western's police ( C&NW, POLICE, SECURITY, "ZIERKE, JIM", TRN )
If I recall correctly, certain trains did essentially have a police escort, and the goal was to avoid those trains having to stop - and if they did, to do so with the slack stretched as much as possible so that the 'pins' would be difficult to 'lift' against the friction from that tension in the couplers.
Paul_D_North_Jr'current' - January 2010 - Trains titled "Trains: a rolling playground?" by Nick Suydam, which shows a bunch of kids hitching short rides on the freight cars of a westbound CN freight train next to the ''Ping Tom Park" in Chicago's Chinatown, at the 18th Street overpass. When the kids saw the photographer, they threw rocks at him !
That happens even around here---I did come across some kids doing something like that awhile back. Many kids are daring each other to do stunts mentioned---nothing better to do---no one around who cares---no $$$ to do programs in areas with kids like these---what do we expect--
Andy's comment about the fusee reminds me of the John Crosby article "Extra Board Diary" from about 1974. Where they were having problems with persons getting on board slow moving cabooses and robbing the crewmen on the rear end. Sometimes they would have to go to the back platform to pick up orders. If they did, they would lock the front door and while one grabbed the orders the other stood with either a lit fusee or an airhose wrench to protect themselves.
Jeff
blownout cylinder Paul_D_North_Jr'current' - January 2010 - Trains titled "Trains: a rolling playground?" by Nick Suydam, which shows a bunch of kids hitching short rides on the freight cars of a westbound CN freight train next to the ''Ping Tom Park" in Chicago's Chinatown, at the 18th Street overpass. When the kids saw the photographer, they threw rocks at him ! That happens even around here---I did come across some kids doing something like that awhile back. Many kids are daring each other to do stunts mentioned---nothing better to do---no one around who cares---no $$$ to do programs in areas with kids like these---what do we expect--
Back in 1997, I was in Fostoria, Ohio on the platform on the south side of CSX (former B&O). A northbound CSX mixed freight was coming up the former C&O and turning west at F Tower. Since the train was turning west onto what was normally the eastbound track at the time, it was running at slow speed as it eased past me. About mid-train, I looked to my right and saw a kid about 10-years-old on his bike coming towards me with his right hand on the end ladder of an autorack, letting the train pull him on his bike down the platform. He saw me standing on the platform with my scanner in hand, shoved off the train, and sped off around the other side of the station, obviously thinking I was going to come after him or something.
I still cringe when I think what would have happened if his hand had slipped on that ladder and he'd fallen off his bike towards the train. Of course, there's always hope that the incident spooked him enough that he didn't try that stunt again.
Kevin
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I still don't get why workers are even robbed at all. Why do the thieves think they are carrying any significant cash if they're working?
kolechovski I still don't get why workers are even robbed at all. Why do the thieves think they are carrying any significant cash if they're working?
You're assuming that thinking enters into it. A perp strung out on drugs, or acting on a dare, or participating in a gang initiation, most likely has his brain in full shutdown mode.
As for danger being part of the job, I carry a military ID. My active career was spent in places where danger was the name of the game - even before the news weenies happened on the term IED. (We just called them booby traps.)
Chuck
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