"Hobbist or Terrorist?" in Time Magazine

[edblysard]

Yeah, I know the feeling.
I work for the Port Terminal Railroad, our North Yard is directly across from gate 8 to the Ship Channel and the turning basin.
Because we are right next door to the docks, no photography is officaly allowed, the homeland security guys have to justify their jobs.
But funny things is, the seamen from foreign ships can just walk out the front gate, all they have to do is show their ships ID to the guards, and they can call a cab from the gate, and go anywhere they chose.

I asked the guards why, and here is their answer.

No one in a offical capacity has ever instructed them to do anything else but this.

The only reason the guards look at their ID is so, when the seamen show back up, they can check them against who left,( wouldnt want any terrorist sneaking out of the US, would we?)
They note the seamans name, ship ID and berth, and where the seaman says he is going, on a simple one page form, which is hanging on a clipboard inside the guard house.
The seaman shows back up, to go back to his ship, his name is checked off, and when the form fills up, it's "filed" in a box full of like forms, kept under the desk.
When the box fills up, they tape it closed, date it, and sent it to storage.

Have never seen one of the guys searched, and they carry bags and suitcases with them all the time.

But myself, a American citizen, would be hasseled beyond belife if I try to shoot a photo of any ship docked there.

Oh, and the foreign seamen almost always have cameras with them, they have shot photos of me switching, no one seems to mind, the port cops and HPD dont even look twice.

Go figure....
An obviously anglo male, in a conspicous red jeep stops beside the yard to take a photo,
(and every Port and HPD cop around here knows all of us who work at the North Yard,)
yet I get asked to stop shooting, and move on, because homeland security forbids me taking photos around here.

But then a man of obvious Arab descent, who called a cab from the gate of the 4th largest port in the US, gets out of his yellow taxi, and starts shooting photos of the tower, the Coast Guard ships docked at berth 12, the North Yard, and the UP's swing bridge #5A, and no one bats a eye?

Only in America!

And heres the funny part.

I support his right to take photos, if I was in his country, I would want to take photos of all the things I saw there, trains, ships, interesting buildings, everything.

But I was born here, my Dad served 30 something years in the US Navy, my uncle in the old Army Air corp, then the Air Force, and my right to photograph the very place I work, in my own country, in my hometown, is restricted?

Ed

[Anonymous]

There are a few points I couldn't help but ntice have surfased.

1) the first issue of photography in public plases. I like that idea, And so do many people. What would you consider Commuter train platforms to be? Public? I would- Apparently a mikey mouse security guard wouldn't agree. this was a big case in Montreal, And the security guard association, which, no offence, every time I go by in a train, are sitting on their arses doing zip-zop and zunk, seems like they have.. nothiung better to do!

You will notice that people, who have the time to pull you up for taking pictures, honestly, must have a boring Job, Or have nothing better to do.

I hate when people have nothing to do, so they will quote every damn Law from the book of laws, let's go hastle these people because they are hoding a camera.

No- It's not right.

A security guard, Has a job clearly defined, to provide Security. Has somehting suddenly become insecure when a photographer pulls out a camera?

Yeah right.

And Ed is right, Do you really think Terrorists use a Kodak CX 7300 with 3.0X digital zoom? HA! they use some high tech thing with 8 million X digital zoom,
They sue somehting so sharp, there cameras could detect mico hair petruding from the left corner of your lips.

sorry to be so base.

Alot of people need to get a grip on this situation. If putting a hidden camera inside a Toilet isn't a crime, and can't be punished. Why the hell is taking pictures of a train, somehting that has no feelings, and can't sue you such a big deal.

One thing in life, I have my priorites in line.. somewhat.. I have them in order from most sever to least important.

I hate people or companys with Screwed up priorities.

Ever heard the saying, Tripping over Dollar bills to pick up dimes?

That easily relates to this situation, Everyone is critsizing the photographers, the insignifant people (no offence, i'm included) while much bigger isues are happening.

Blah blha blha, i just lost my train of thought, so i'll end it here.

[Anonymous]

Ah yes- Train of though re-railed.

one lkast point. I agree 100% with the person that said, I'm on public property, And i'll do as ever as I please (Take photos) Damn right! and so will I. The first person that tries to tell me otherwise, might wind up with some missing teeth, a black eye.. etc...

and he'd be a fool to come back for a second round.

[Anonymous]

A couple of recent news updates (5/21/04)

"the New Jersey attorney general's office is investigating at least 7 instances in the last week of suspicious surveillance activity along Amtrak and New Jersey Transit commuter rail lines between Philadelphia, Trenton and New York." WPVI-TV Philadelphia

"a wireless transmitter was found buried in track bed north of Philadelphia." WPVI-TV Philadelphia

2 Amtrak trains were stopped and searched last night - 1 near Philadelphia and another near Baltimore. Nothing found.

Today's The New York Times reports that MTA wants to ban photography in its subway stations.

[Mikeygaw]

addition to erie's post... if i heard the news right, it was 3 trains that were stopped and searched... Acela's #2171, #2175, and another not identified

[Anonymous]

bah.... wireless transmitter...


How about somebody stop trains for a GOOD reason...

if i put a Can of Kidney beans on the RR tracks, will there be a federal investigation?

thats stupid... and just plain purile, get a grip and or life.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I too just heard it was 3 Amtrak trains, not 2 as I originally mentioned.

NYC Mayor Bloomberg has come out AGAINST a photography ban. He doesn't want a bunch of tourists arrested for taking pictures on the "A" train. His quote was "Get real."

Sad state of affairs. One would hang out along the Main Line waiting for a train to go by. The engineer would wave. Nowadays he calls for the SWAT team.

[wallyworld]

I would rather collect ceramic thimbles than certify the current state of paranoia
by volunteering to have an ID card. It's out of an old black and white movie where the Gestapo agent stops our hero to ask in a sinister voice; "Vere are your papers?" I am an American. I pay for these moronic politicians through every paycheck to guarantee my civil rights and to protect them regardless of how I chose to spend my personal time. That is supposedly why every war has been fought and lives sacrificed. Now I am going to have to get sanctioned to have and use a camera as I see fit? If that happens, we may have won the battle and we most certainly will have lost the war. What's next? They already have the right to spy on what books we take from the library, they have a program for my neighbors to spy on me, they have the right to detain me for an indefinite period with no access to an attorney and no trial if they so chose. Enough is enough and I for one would rather eat %#@! than be required to be id'ed to enjoy my hobby.

[Anonymous]

In Toronto this morning we heard a TV report that rail photography has been banned and that anyone in America seen photographing trains, railroad property, etc., may be arrested and detained for investigation. Supposedly Al Queda has issued a threat against the US railroad system. Can anyone confirm or deny this rumour? Sadly, when we become paranoid, begin to select a group of people and then restrict or deny them the basic freedom to enjoy an innocent activity, we've already conceded a small victory to our enemies. And yes, some of this paranoia has spread to Canada. A railfan in Montreal was arrested and detained for six hours while taking phtotgraphs of the Montreal Metro subway system.

Perhaps we can get some type of "National Rail Photography Permit". After all, we licence guns (in most places), muscle cars, motorcycles, hunting and fishing. If it's not too expensive and eliminates hassle while giving the railways and transit systems a measure of comfort, perhaps it's worth setting up. Any comments?

[jeaton]

This whole issue is absolutely asinine.

I can understand controlling the photography of war materiel on the grounds that this could provide some intelligence to an enemy, or complex infrastructure, such as a chemical plant, where such photos might be used to spot vulnerabilities. But pictures of trains?

Field terrorist to leader: “I got some pictures of TRAINS.” Leader: “These are neat. I have never seen any train pictures in books, magazines or on the internet”

Duh…

Does anybody out there really think that the only thing a spy/terrorist would carry is some high end digital model with a nice assortment of telephoto lenses? Better look for pin holes in those brief cases.

Or suppose it just looks like a camera, but it is really a ray gun that can blow a hole in the side of a locomotive big enough to drive a car through. Nah, NRA would already be out protecting our rights to carry ray guns.

Yeah, it would be convenient to have a “Certified Good Guy” card, as if a “Certified Bad Guy” couldn’t get one. Or what about a good guy gone bad. I’m with wallyworld on this. “Vere are your papers!”

We grant the right to law enforcement personnel to investigate suspicious activity as a crime prevention measure. It has only rarely happened, but when I have been asked what I am doing by police, my candid and honest response has been accepted.


Jay

PS Good for Mayor Blumberg

[UPTRAIN]

What would al quita be after by blowing up a freight train? I guess they would be after the tanker cars right? Seems stupid to me.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I finally read the story by going to TIME's website: www.time.com, and clicking on the title of the story,"Hobbyist or Terrorist"? The complete link to the story is:
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040524-638410.00.html.

I take umbrage to equating railfan hobbiests to terrorists. Then we read about NJ Transit requiring photographers to get a permit to take pictures of its trains, equipmrent, or facilities last Thursday in the Trenton Times, and New York City wants to ban phtography in subways. There might be some hope on the horizon in that Mayor Bloomberg told the New York Transit Authority. there should be no reason to ban photogrphy on New York's subway.

Banning photography of military equipment makes sense, but banning the photography of anything whose photographs may have been widely distributed in the past just doesn't make sense.

[88gta350]

You guys have seen too many movies. Terrorists will not use pin hole cameras in briefcases, they won't have 1 million X zoom cameras...but they WILL do surveilance when planning an attack. How will this surveilance be conducted? The same way they live in this country... by blending in. They'll try to look like a tourist, they'll try to look like a railfan, try to look like they're photographing something else nearby, etc...

I, too believe that if you're on public property you should be able to photograph anything you like, but you have to remember the state of the world we now live in. Terrorists will do surveilance, they will photograph targets. yes, plenty of photos have been published, but unless you plan on attacking Penn Station, chances are your target has not, or not to the level of detail you'd need.

I work Nuclear Security for probably the country's most famous Nuclear Power Plant (TMI). We are located 2 miles from a major airport, and a rail line runs through our property (with a spur into the plant for construction/repairs). Because of our proximity to potential weapons, we've gotten briefed on several plane and railfan buffs wo've been questioned after spotted taking pictures. Of course, we get plenty of tourists just to the plant itself, beacuse of it's noteriety. Then these people wonder why, in this day and age when you just show up at a nuke plant asking for a tour, we want to ID and photograph you.

As for the rail line running thorugh the property, how hard would it be for a terrorist (or team) to board a train, and pilot it onto the spur into our nuke plant? Without going into too much detail, this why we have numerous derailers mounted on the line, as well as barriers that would need moved if we were to ever need rail access. A terrorist could stop the train across our gate, or damage track to derail a train, blocking access to responding police and emergency workers to the island. And then there are all the hazardous materials transported by rail every day, including nuclear fuel, cholrine gas, and other who knows what.

When I began employment, we got a rail security briefing. I can tell you, there are good reasons behind the security measures now taking place. I don't like them either. As I said, I believe if you're on public property, you should have the right to photograph just about anything; however, there is a method to the madness, and a reason behind it all.

[Anonymous]

Three comments:

1. Almost ANY activity public or private is associated with terrorism. Using a cell phone, traveling on an airplane, moving your household goods, and using hand tools have all been definitively linked to a terrorist act in recent years (Madrid, 9/11, Timothy McVeigh, and the Unabomber).

2. Railroads are vulnerable to sabotage, but that's not the same thing as terrorism. Sabotage is intended to cause economic or military disruption (which can often be the same thing). Terrorism is intended to cause rapid political change. Sabotage is an additive act; each event degrades an enemy and even small events are useful if there's enough of them. Terrorism doesn't work unless each outrage tops the last one: a public rapidly gets inured to little catastrophes. Any event of lesser caliber than 9/11 would probably be non-motivational to the U.S. public at this point--it would at most reinforce, not change, the course of national policy--and a train derailment or bombing is unlikely to be big enough to match 9/11. Terrorist actions against railroads in the U.S. would very quickly look like sabotage in that resources would be reallocated to prevent them, but they would not significantly change national policy. For that, a terrorist has to do another 9/11 or something even larger. The technology of railroading doesn't lend itself to that very well.

3. A national ID card system for rail photography is more akin to a concealed weapons permit than a hunting license. A hunting license is a system of positive value that taxes hunters to pay for game-management programs: the hunter gets something of value. A concealed weapons permit is a system of negative value; it verifies the possessor is not a criminal and is allows him or her to engage in an activity that has great potential for harm. So first, a photography permit would weed out anyone with any errors in judgement in the past or any unfortunate associations. Second, it would probably be highly conditional with restrictions of location, timing, and situation -- just as a concealed weapons permit doesn't get a gun onto an airplane, a rail photography permit is likely to permanently prohibit all sorts of places deemed sensitive. Third, because the possessor in effect is granted a get-out-of-jail-free card, the permit would be avidly sought by miscreants (if it had ANY value at all). Thus, it's likely that very few would be granted. Fourth, and most importantly, it would probably bear with it a requirement for a higher standard of conduct; e.g., anyone with a permit caught trespassing or speeding or taking photos off-limits or what have you would probably face severe penalties and permanent revocation of the permit.

A permit system is more likely to result in the permanent loss of photographic privledges for some, and significant loss of privledges for all, than it is to free anyone from the worry of being arrested or interrogated, albeit temporarily. Moreover, just the very act of asking the government for a permit system will bring organized, top-down scrutiny of rail photography instead of the current ad hoc, localized scrutiny, and the result might not be a permit but instead a permanent prohibition.

Those are all observations. An opinion: a railfan permit will not return anyone's world to the way it was pre-9/11. This is a solution that should be looked at with great caution, if one would even call it a solution at all.

[88gta350]

Mark, I'd have to take exception to your statement that terrorists are only looking to top 9/11 for the political reasons and not looking at sabotage. Terrorists want to harn the US no matter what form it takes. Of course a 9/11 style attack would be tops on the list, but how much economical damage could they do by taking out a few key rail bridges at once, or attacking other infrastructure such as pipelines, refineries, dams, electrical grids, etc... All of these targets I just mentioned are soft targets, with little or no defense. Anyone with enough dedication and the means could easily attack any of these targets at will. What's stopping them from renting a ground floor apartment building in downtown NY or LA and filling it with explosives? Or walking into a crowded mall a week before christmas strapped with explosives or carrying weapons? Or simply pulling another Oklahoma City and driving a truck to any one of a thousand targets around the country, how about a school?

Terrorism is about one thing only: creating terror among its victims. If the attacks I mentioned above started to happen, and americans could not feel safe anywhere, even in your own home, what would happen? I'm not sure you could answer that question until it happens, but I don't think it would be anything good.

Rail lines, power plants, dams... they are all a means to an end for a terrorist. They will use any means neccesary to lash out at what they see as the greatest threat to their way of life, us. Does that mean we should ban photography of infrastructure? Insitute a national ID card? If we become that scared, then they have won. I'd rather live in a free country with an occasional terrorist attack, then live in lock down but feel safe.

[Anonymous]

nahhh

Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don't take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim.

1-6-0-0

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

nahhh

Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don't take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim.

1-6-0-0

Of course terrorism is intended to affect political change. It is a form of warfare ( a detestable one and cowardly one) but a form of warfare nonetheless, and warfare is an instrument of political will. By attacking soft civilian targets, the intent is to strike fear (the political gain) and to disrupt routine and force the victim to commit additional resorrces that could be used in other places (a basic military tactic). The goal is to force the victim to either change national policies (end presence in the Mid East, Ireland, etc ) or achieve a shorter term goal (prisoner release, etc). The WTC attack by Al Queda was most assuredly based on ideology with a political motive.

I agree with Mark, in that a railfan license is the wrong way to go, as it would be more of a concealed and carry permit, a get out of jail card, giving a rationale for being someplace and therefore open to abuse. Things ebb and flow and society goes through change and change again. I think this will eventually ease up .....and if anything else..like I always say..vote your conscience.

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 88gta350


Rail lines, power plants, dams... they are all a means to an end for a terrorist. They will use any means neccesary to lash out at what they see as the greatest threat to their way of life, us. Does that mean we should ban photography of infrastructure? Insitute a national ID card? If we become that scared, then they have won. I'd rather live in a free country with an occasional terrorist attack, then live in lock down but feel safe.

I agree. I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Those who would trade freedom for security, will get, nor deserve neither."

[Anonymous]

The weird part is, since 9/11 I haven 't been hassled once. I've talked with MOW employees, track gangs waiting out rainy days in their little "shanty towns" engineers waiting at crew chan ge points, and train crews waiting out signal changes, and all i've gotten were smiles from guys who were obviously a tad thrilled thaqt someone had taken an interest in their lives.

Trying to explain my success where others seem to have problems isn't entirely easy, but "behavior" most likely is a part of it. When I know I've been seen, I don't behave in ways that make folks have to won der what it is I might be up to. And when asked, I just say "Oh, getting in a little train watching" Then ask them about how their day is going.

People really enjoy talking about their favorite subject (themselves) and so things just go well, thats the best I can explain it, buy there are a few caveates:

1. Never act like you know you shouldn't be there, if you begin your "retreat" the second some guys lay their eyes on you, they're gonna come find you and tell you that you know you don't belong there

2. stay away from the tracks as much as possible, and by this I mean don't just walk down thecenter of the tracks, walk along side them

3 As a train approaches, never leave 1 iota of doubt in the en gineers mind that you know he's there and a train is approaching. When a train is approaching from my rear, I'll look back over my shoulder several times, not because I need to know there's a train coming, but I want to make sure the engineer knows that I know he's there. If you act in ways that give the engineer cause to worry for your safety, he's gonna use that radio for yourr own good.

4. "mix it up a little" Don't go to the same spot day after day, but try to go to different lines, locales, etc your viewing will be more interesting, and you won't set a pattern that can only work against you

5 Probably most importantly, when confronted (and it likely will begin as a "soft challenge" such as ~hows it goin?~ or ~where ya headed?~)act like you are happy to see the guy and try to avoid that "bambi looking into a pair of headlights down the road" look from coming into your eyes.

It works for me

[AltonFan]

Fans photographing railroad facilities from public property who are challenged by railroad police might want to write a letter to the railroad in question and ask if the railroad policeman was following company policy.

Some years ago, the CTA had a shop complex on the north side. I am told CTA security people would confiscate railfans' film, if they caught them photographing the shops from a public sidewalk. I related this account to a well-connected friend of mine, who told me those security men are lucky they never encountered a certain high-ranking CTA official, who also happened to be a railfan. My friend said the security men would have been fired on the spot for exceeding their mandate. (My friend said this would probably happen even if the railfan was on a CTA station platform.)

In another incident, some people claiming to be railroad police were confiscating railfans' photographic equipment and telling the fans that they could pick up their equipment from their local police. This went on until one day, a railfan, who was himself supervisor of the railroad's police, arrested these people, who were impersonating railroad police, and were stealing fans' cameras.

So again, in those instances where a railroad policeman or other security person does something that seems overwrought, maybe documenting the incident, and reporting it to the railroad, with a polite inquiry if the person was following company policy might be a good idea.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

nahhh

Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don't take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim.

1-6-0-0

Of course terrorism is intended to affect political change. It is a form of warfare ( a detestable one and cowardly one) but a form of warfare nonetheless, and warfare is an instrument of political will. By attacking soft civilian targets, the intent is to strike fear (the political gain) and to disrupt routine and force the victim to commit additional resorrces that could be used in other places (a basic military tactic). The goal is to force the victim to either change national policies (end presence in the Mid East, Ireland, etc ) or achieve a shorter term goal (prisoner release, etc). The WTC attack by Al Queda was most assuredly based on ideology with a political motive.

I agree with Mark, in that a railfan license is the wrong way to go, as it would be more of a concealed and carry permit, a get out of jail card, giving a rationale for being someplace and therefore open to abuse. Things ebb and flow and society goes through change and change again. I think this will eventually ease up .....and if anything else..like I always say..vote your conscience.

OK-

NOW PROOVE that the Attack on the USA is going to cause a political change.
It didn't / wasn't going to.
If you recall correctly Post 9/11 beofre Iraq, support for Bush was it's highest yet.

How does that go for Political change?

You wanted the same person beofre the attack as you did after the attack

You know what that is defined as? A change in Quantum leap porportions.

Assuming some of you never took astro physicas, A Quantam leap, mathematically expressed, is a small step, a very small step or a barely visable movement.

therfore, that debunks your Terrorisim political change idea.

Terriorisim and Political change on Pearson's R scale Rank pretty Low, 0.25-0.3
Pearson used and invented this theory to rank how weall obeject A Corrilates (R) with object B

In order for a Stron R, there has to be a Strong A (association)

for example: Believe this or not, There is no R (R=Corrilation) in the amount of hours study, and the results on the exam\quiz\test, and this is a proven fact.
R=0.15

Most likely you and your Wife have a Strong R (usually 0.85, or 0.9) the best you can get is a 1.

So no, those two, don't go together.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman
[br
OK-

NOW PROOVE that the Attack on the USA is going to cause a political change.
It didn't / wasn't going to.
If you recall correctly Post 9/11 beofre Iraq, support for Bush was it's highest yet.

How does that go for Political change?

You wanted the same person beofre the attack as you did after the attack

You know what that is defined as? A change in Quantum leap porportions.

Assuming some of you never took astro physicas, A Quantam leap, mathematically expressed, is a small step, a very small step or a barely visable movement.

therfore, that debunks your Terrorisim political change idea.

Terriorisim and Political change on Pearson's R scale Rank pretty Low, 0.25-0.3
Pearson used and invented this theory to rank how weall obeject A Corrilates (R) with object B

In order for a Stron R, there has to be a Strong A (association)

for example: Believe this or not, There is no R (R=Corrilation) in the amount of hours study, and the results on the exam\quiz\test, and this is a proven fact.
R=0.15

Most likely you and your Wife have a Strong R (usually 0.85, or 0.9) the best you can get is a 1.

So no, those two, don't go together.

You are kidding right? The very basic tenet of terrorism is to affect political change by creating a sense of fear in the populace that they are not safe. The premise that it is not would be silly. Hijacking an airplane for money is a crimal act. Hijacking an airplane and seeking release of "political" prisoners or to try to get a government to change policy is terrorism. The difference is that terrorism is an act of war, which in and of itself is an instrument of political will. The terrorists that conducted the WTC and Pentagon attacks were acting as soldiers of Al Queda, a group which has goals of removing US presence in the Mideast and furthering the political power of Islamic extremist fundamentalism. Political goals which they seek to further through violence against the US and its allies. Whether the acts change policy of the victim or not, it is the intent to.

Some examples, and it even pertains to railroads....In the 70's, Moluccan exteremists hijacked trains (and also held a school) in Holland, with the purpose of gaining release of prisoners and to bring media attetnion to their independence movement in the Dutch far east colonies. Did they change Dutch policy..no, but they had the intent...

The Spani***rain bombings. Timed to just before the elections..with the intent of punishing US allies for support of the war in Iraq. In this case, coupled with the targeted attacks on Spanish personnel in Iraq, had a defenite imnpact on the outcome of the elections and the removal of Spani***roops from Iraq.....the desired result was acheived.

The difference between terrorism an crimal acts is politcal motivation..to seek change...even if the political motive is cloudy...it is the intent to cause change. As for public opinion......striking a blow does one of two things to the public resolve....it either strengthens it or weakens it. In the Spanish case it apparently weakened it, 9/11 strengthened it....just as Pearl Harbor did.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

QUOTE:
I'd love some sort of ID, especially if it had an official flavor to it. Then, if you were sitting in an appropriate area, watching the action, and were challenged, you could show the ID and say "It's OK officer..." Of course, I'm sure that getting the ID would involve somehow acknowleging that you shouldn't trespass, etc, etc; so getting caught doing so would be that much worse.

That's what it talks about in the above article about NJ Transit.

Before you take pictures they want you to fill out an application and send it in to NJT and then they will send a copy of your "license" (free by the way) to you.

Who knows what kind of info they want from you in order to issue a license...

OH Yeah that happens to me alot!

[Anonymous]

It would seem that railroad managements and Homeland Security would find some value in having all those "foamer" eyes watching our vulnerable rail network. Might not railfans be excellent observers? With a keen interest in their hobby and a high level of knowledge many railfans might be able to recognize something suspicious and report it. When the national terror alert color code goes from orange to red, we general citizens are asked to "keep watch for anything suspicious." So, such recognition by the government of the watchful eyes of the general public is a fact. But what about us railfans? Just as terrorists can hide within the ranks of the general public, so might they hide within the ranks of the railfans. The answer to all this is.....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill

Three comments:

1. Almost ANY activity public or private is associated with terrorism. Using a cell phone, traveling on an airplane, moving your household goods, and using hand tools have all been definitively linked to a terrorist act in recent years (Madrid, 9/11, Timothy McVeigh, and the Unabomber).

2. Railroads are vulnerable to sabotage, but that's not the same thing as terrorism. Sabotage is intended to cause economic or military disruption (which can often be the same thing). Terrorism is intended to cause rapid political change. Sabotage is an additive act; each event degrades an enemy and even small events are useful if there's enough of them. Terrorism doesn't work unless each outrage tops the last one: a public rapidly gets inured to little catastrophes. Any event of lesser caliber than 9/11 would probably be non-motivational to the U.S. public at this point--it would at most reinforce, not change, the course of national policy--and a train derailment or bombing is unlikely to be big enough to match 9/11. Terrorist actions against railroads in the U.S. would very quickly look like sabotage in that resources would be reallocated to prevent them, but they would not significantly change national policy. For that, a terrorist has to do another 9/11 or something even larger. The technology of railroading doesn't lend itself to that very well.

3. A national ID card system for rail photography is more akin to a concealed weapons permit than a hunting license. A hunting license is a system of positive value that taxes hunters to pay for game-management programs: the hunter gets something of value. A concealed weapons permit is a system of negative value; it verifies the possessor is not a criminal and is allows him or her to engage in an activity that has great potential for harm. So first, a photography permit would weed out anyone with any errors in judgement in the past or any unfortunate associations. Second, it would probably be highly conditional with restrictions of location, timing, and situation -- just as a concealed weapons permit doesn't get a gun onto an airplane, a rail photography permit is likely to permanently prohibit all sorts of places deemed sensitive. Third, because the possessor in effect is granted a get-out-of-jail-free card, the permit would be avidly sought by miscreants (if it had ANY value at all). Thus, it's likely that very few would be granted. Fourth, and most importantly, it would probably bear with it a requirement for a higher standard of conduct; e.g., anyone with a permit caught trespassing or speeding or taking photos off-limits or what have you would probably face severe penalties and permanent revocation of the permit.

A permit system is more likely to result in the permanent loss of photographic privledges for some, and significant loss of privledges for all, than it is to free anyone from the worry of being arrested or interrogated, albeit temporarily. Moreover, just the very act of asking the government for a permit system will bring organized, top-down scrutiny of rail photography instead of the current ad hoc, localized scrutiny, and the result might not be a permit but instead a permanent prohibition.

Those are all observations. An opinion: a railfan permit will not return anyone's world to the way it was pre-9/11. This is a solution that should be looked at with great caution, if one would even call it a solution at all.

Excellent insite- this is why you are Editor and I am a learning reader and railfan!

[edblysard]

Not real sure there is an single, definitive answer...

What I am sure of is every time we change how we live, what we do, how we act, and react to the people around us and the events happenng, we conceed to the terrorist's wishes.

After all, what they wanted was world reconigition of their cause and desires, which they got in spades.

And sadly, my generation, for the most part, was raised completly un-aware of the cost of our freedom and our civil liberities, to most, we assume they are a given.

Yet we daily sit by, and watch as the very same freedoms and liberities are carefully and quitely being removed, our faces glued to the TV, watching the evening news, hoping the "goverment" can somehow keep the sky from falling, all in the name of homeland security.

Absurd, and terrifying too.

We seem to have forgotten a simple fact, who is going to police the world police?
And what will they do, after they have removed our power to curb their power and reach?

I jokingly referred to them as ***, but the fact is, the *** kept power precisely because the general populace was afraid to protest their actions and policies, until the ability to protest was gone completly.

Starting to sound familar?

The powers that be today would have you belive we are fighting a sophisticated and well run axis of evil, but the fact is they pulled off 9/11 with balls, guts and a lot of luck.
Box cutters and nailclippers, and the implied threat of a bomb is not the sophistication we are being sold, but thats what they used.

And they generated just enough fear in the general public to allow a few fascist radicals to gain a large part in controling our goverment, and curtailing our rights and liberities, all under the absurd concept of homeland security.

Homeland, Fatherland, dont sound too far apart, do they?

I, for one, dont like living in this culture of fear, or the implied state of terror our goverment is selling.

It isnt Osama and crew tapping your phone, you know, or reviewing your taxs, spying on you, detaining and searching you, the American citizen.
Its you own goverment, breaking the very laws, violating the very civil rights my Dad and Uncle fought to guarantee for millions in WWII and Korea.

I want to live in a open society they fought to preserve, where I can travel coast to coast, with a camera in my bag, without fear of the homeland homies jailing me without charges, holding me for as long as they please.

I dont want a internal passport, or a national ID, if the FBI, CIA or the NSA needs my fingerprint, photograph and DNA, let them charge me with a crime first, like our laws say they should.

I sure a hell aint going to give it to them beforehand.

After all, arent we supposed to be the good guys?

If living in the old culture I grew up in means we have to put up with attacks, well, they really were doing so all along, 9/11 just happend to be a bigger more successfull event than the others.

But understand this too...

Next time, we shouldnt wait one minute to visit wreck and ruin on the country where these jerks come from.

No liberation force, no police action, or occupation force, peacekeeping, none of that crap.

What we should do is start at the borders of their country, and anything that moves gets blown up, period.

Work our way to the center of the country, then back out to the borders.

Blow up anything entering or leaving.

We've been walking real soft for quite a long time, it may just be time to break out the bigs sticks Teddy was talking about.

Make sure the rest of the world, and the rest of the terrorist understand this one simple fact.

Yup, you can jack with us, but we will jack right back, and we got more of the bigger, better guns and bombs, and a really huge armed services just waiting for a excuse to try out their new toys.

Attack us again, and we will hammer you into the very sand you stand on.

These clowns want to live in the third century, fine, lets bomb them right back into it.

Ed

[dekemd]

Ed is quite correct, as usual. Our own government has used 9/11 to attempt to gain all sorts of powers they normally couldn't get. They have succeeded at some, failed on others. For example, right after 9/11 several members of congress said that the US needed tougher gun laws.??? When you stop to think that this is in response to an attack carried out with box cutters and nail clippers, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Fortunately, they didn't get far with that one. However, others they have snuck in. The FBI now has a way to tap into your phone line remotely. It is also a whole lot easier for them to get authorization for phone taps. There are many other powers the government now has that probably have our Founding Fathers turning over in their graves. Those in congress who did stand up for the Constitution and spoke against some of these powers were quickly labeled as unamerican. Some were even called traitors.

I think we should give the terrorists what they want. If they want the US out of the Middle East, then fine. The US should find an alternate source of oil to replace oil from the Middle East, then pull out everything. No more oil money, no more foriegn aid money, no more anything from the US. Close all US military bases and pull out all US personnel stationed in the Middle East. Without the money from the US, their economy will collapse and the Middle East will go back to the Middle Ages. The US wouldn't have to fire a single round or drop one bomb. The place would fall apart and self destruct.

Now if the terrorist still hate us and they continue to attack, then it time to go in and carpet bomb the place.

I've been in law enforcement for eight years now and can tell you from experience that sometimes it's hard to tell who the bad guys are. Just because someone looks like an ordinary and innocent person doesn't mean they are. To give an example, many years ago in a small town in Georgia, two officers were riding together on late night patrol. About one in the morning a BMW came flying by them at fairly high speed. When they pulled him over they could tell it was a nice BMW driven by a man in a business suit. One officer told his partner just to stay in the car, that he was just going to give the guy a warning. When the officer got up to the car, the driver shot him in the head, killing him instantly. The driver then fled. He is still at large today. That officer is dead because he ASSUMED it was just some rich businessman in a hurry. In that respect, law enforcement is a lot like railroading: Assumptions can get you killed!

Should photographing trains be illegal? NO WAY!!! Does it hurt for an officer to go talk to someone watching trains to see what he doing? Absolutely not. Some officers do go overboard and abuse their authority. They tarni***he reputation of us all. I've approached a few railfans in the past eight years. The biggest reason was because they were on the ROW. A few weren't doing anything out of the ordinary but I just walked up and started up a conversation. I talk to them for five to ten minutes and then go on my way. In that time I can usually tell if their genuine railfans or something else.

There's a middle ground between totally unaware and paranoia. The more people we can get moved from the extremes to the middle ground the better off we'll all be.

Derrick

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Not real sure there is an single, definitive answer...

What I am sure of is every time we change how we live, what we do, how we act, and react to the people around us and the events happenng, we conceed to the terrorist's wishes.

After all, what they wanted was world reconigition of their cause and desires, which they got in spades.

And sadly, my generation, for the most part, was raised completly un-aware of the cost of our freedom and our civil liberities, to most, we assume they are a given.

Yet we daily sit by, and watch as the very same freedoms and liberities are carefully and quitely being removed, our faces glued to the TV, watching the evening news, hoping the "goverment" can somehow keep the sky from falling, all in the name of homeland security.

Absurd, and terrifying too.

We seem to have forgotten a simple fact, who is going to police the world police?
And what will they do, after they have removed our power to curb their power and reach?

I jokingly referred to them as ***, but the fact is, the *** kept power precisely because the general populace was afraid to protest their actions and policies, until the ability to protest was gone completly.

Starting to sound familar?

The powers that be today would have you belive we are fighting a sophisticated and well run axis of evil, but the fact is they pulled off 9/11 with balls, guts and a lot of luck.
Box cutters and nailclippers, and the implied threat of a bomb is not the sophistication we are being sold, but thats what they used.

And they generated just enough fear in the general public to allow a few fascist radicals to gain a large part in controling our goverment, and curtailing our rights and liberities, all under the absurd concept of homeland security.

Homeland, Fatherland, dont sound too far apart, do they?

I, for one, dont like living in this culture of fear, or the implied state of terror our goverment is selling.

It isnt Osama and crew tapping your phone, you know, or reviewing your taxs, spying on you, detaining and searching you, the American citizen.
Its you own goverment, breaking the very laws, violating the very civil rights my Dad and Uncle fought to guarantee for millions in WWII and Korea.

I want to live in a open society they fought to preserve, where I can travel coast to coast, with a camera in my bag, without fear of the homeland homies jailing me without charges, holding me for as long as they please.

I dont want a internal passport, or a national ID, if the FBI, CIA or the NSA needs my fingerprint, photograph and DNA, let them charge me with a crime first, like our laws say they should.

I sure a hell aint going to give it to them beforehand.

After all, arent we supposed to be the good guys?

If living in the old culture I grew up in means we have to put up with attacks, well, they really were doing so all along, 9/11 just happend to be a bigger more successfull event than the others.

But understand this too...

Next time, we shouldnt wait one minute to visit wreck and ruin on the country where these jerks come from.

No liberation force, no police action, or occupation force, peacekeeping, none of that crap.

What we should do is start at the borders of their country, and anything that moves gets blown up, period.

Work our way to the center of the country, then back out to the borders.

Blow up anything entering or leaving.

We've been walking real soft for quite a long time, it may just be time to break out the bigs sticks Teddy was talking about.

Make sure the rest of the world, and the rest of the terrorist understand this one simple fact.

Yup, you can jack with us, but we will jack right back, and we got more of the bigger, better guns and bombs, and a really huge armed services just waiting for a excuse to try out their new toys.

Attack us again, and we will hammer you into the very sand you stand on.

These clowns want to live in the third century, fine, lets bomb them right back into it.

Ed

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto] You read my mind

[Anonymous]

YO! ED! all good points. and in that vein, it could well be the RR's "exploiting" the fear of the moment.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I see some guy with a camera, photographing somee mundane every day thing, I think "lawyer" and "law suit", that someone's client no doubt came onto my property and tripped on a bump in the sidewalk, and now they are out collecting evidence...etc

Who's interest does it serve to allow carte blanche photo opportunity? surely not the railroad's

[Anonymous]

once in blue island at ihb yard getting photos, sec. guards of rr checked me out. i said whats the big deal. see that interlocking tower behind you? yes , well a guy was found there yesterday bound and gagged shot in head!!! once saw a ufo by tracks at nite. the next day 2 men in black escourted me off property.