What is the purpose of those wires? To carry the power for the signals and switches?
You don't point to a picture so I can only assume you are referring to those normally found along railiroad rights of way, especially in years past. Most of them carried telephone, telegraph, and signal circuits. A railroad had its own communicaitons network from one end of the railroad to the other plus branches so there were local lines, several dispatcher lines, trackside phones, division lines, and corporate lines plus others including spares for both telephone and telegraph. Then there were sgnal circuits which were based on the equipment and manufacturer or system used, et al.
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In very rough terms:
1850-1900: Communications only, first telegraph, then telegraph and telephone
1900-1920: Addition of simple signal circuits to the communications circuits. These signal circuits are signal-to-signal and convey information to a given block from the adjoining blocks only. There aren't any long-haul signal circuits. Almost all signals were battery powered due to lack of widespread availability of commercial power.
1920-1940: In some instances, power lines are added (usually D.C.) to power wayside signal installations. But many remain battery only.
1940-1960: Power lines are broadly installed to the pole lines, both D.C. and A.C., and the battery-only wayside signal installations decline rapidly in prevalence. CTC code lines are added to many pole lines, on lines where CTC is installed.
1960-1970: Communications lines rapidly disappear as commercial telephone and railroad microwave systems replace the pole line telephone circuits.
1970-1980: Code lines rapidly disappear as railroads convert to microwave, HD Linker, and Bellco circuits for transmitting code information. D.C. power circuits disappear quickly as A.C. utility drops become prevalent.
1980-2000: Signal circuits rapidly disappear as railroads convert to electrocode (which is in the rail) or HD Linker.
2000-present: More and more, all that remains is power only, and usually now it is new A.C. on a new pole line, not the old pole line.
Much of what is still out there today on the old pole lines is dead. The wires remain but the volts are gone. Most of these are iron wires or iron-core wires, and thus of meager value for scrap whether by railroad forces or thieves. Usually the power lines were copper, and those power lines that remain in service are usually hot.
This is the typical pattern on the preponderance of U.S. railways. Others might add the exotic and exceptional.
Switch machine battery chargers have a very low power draw. The machines throw only occasionally. They have a large battery capacity to generate high amperage, but it only lasts for a few seconds. The big power-consumer is the switch heater, whether calrod or forced-air, gas-fired.
RWM
Thanks guys..
Another use of the poles was to carry quarter, half, three-quarter, and mile markers. The SLSF had forty poles to the mile, and every tenth one was marked. (If you were checking your speed, and the train was creeping along, you did not have to wait forever to get to the next marker; if it took you one minute to get from one pole to the next, you knew that you were covering a mile and a half every hour.) The UP and other roads still have posts every quarter mile, but they serve no other purpose.
RWM, thanks for the brief history. It is somewhat sad to see the abandoned wires along a right of way, but we know that it is not worth anybody's time to recover them.
Johnny
At least in Canada, sometimes there were also outside external users of wire pairs. For example in Golden, in the province of British Columbia, radio feeds from two radio stations were carried over separate lines to local transmitters in that town. I have no idea what the commercial arrangements were between the railway and the radio stations. Now of course satellites or fibre-optic cables will have taken over that function.
As an aside, I will mention that we photographers were all too often frustrated by the pole lines. It always seemed the wires or poles were in the way of that perfect shot. Now of course they are mostly vanished, and thankfully so. The one exception is when we try to recreate period images with steam locomotives and vintage automobiles. To me the missing telegraph line plainly reveals the inherent falsity of the resulting picture.
John
Left out the pairs that were dedicated Western Union.
DON'T ASSUME ALL THOSE LINES ARE DEAD....Went through a headache exercise last year on RWM's old employer where a stupid kid touched a low hanging wire in hill country on purpose. He thought the line was dead and was going to fake electrocution to scare/spoof other kids following. The 440 Volt line was very much still live. (It ain't the volts that kill you, it's them pesky AMPs! - stupid kid lived with some very bad burns as did two other kids trying to help the idiot with his hands frozen to the wires)
Pole counts went anywhere from 30-50 per mile with 35-40 being common. Pole count per mile were directly related to how many gains on the poles were occupied with crossarms and wires. Some of us old dinosaurs even remember when portable phones meant carrying around a canvas bag with two wire clips, a battery and a handset and clipping onto copper message phone lines.
I'm probably one of the few guys in the railfan/railroad sense that took a liking to poles and lines. It's probably a little uncanny how I can detect a railroad in pictures or otherwise by looking at the poles and lines. I'm probably biased but I always thought that the MILW and IC/ICG had the best-looking poles and lines followed closely by both GN and NP. RI's weren't bad but CNW's were just horrible (so were their switchstands).
My father was a district lineman for the NP/BN from 1947-1990. He worked with all the different line systems from open wire through cable to microwave. He retired as the BN was starting to install fiber optics. He mainly worked the area from Seattle to Tacoma including the Stampede Pass line. As a teenager he took me by motorcar to Lester during a snowstorm. It was pretty impressive how he found the problem in the middle of the storm.
One of the problems, and reasons so many lines still exist, is because over time schematics, etc. were lost. Along the EL for instance, the only way they could find out what a particular piece of wire was for was to wait for a failure of a signal or communications line when wires were taken down by trees, winds, or thieves stealing copper and insulators! By removing the unchartered circuit they relearned the wires' function until the whole system could be redesigned. Even when CR took down the semaphores and replaced them with lights, the old wires remain in place lest they be without circuits!
I didnt like them back in the 70's when taking photos. Now, I miss them.
Looking back at old photos, a full rack of line wires (was) is a pretty neat compliment to a photo.
ed
The lineside poles are also a source of collectibles, like plates, signs, and insulators. Search the web for "collectible insulators" and you can find some that are worth more than $15,000.
trainguy21 My father was a district lineman for the NP/BN from 1947-1990. He worked with all the different line systems from open wire through cable to microwave. He retired as the BN was starting to install fiber optics. He mainly worked the area from Seattle to Tacoma including the Stampede Pass line. As a teenager he took me by motorcar to Lester during a snowstorm. It was pretty impressive how he found the problem in the middle of the storm.
In the interest of preserving some of that oral history - Do you have any stories, insights, day-to-day routine, technology, training, union representation, information, likes/ dislikes, history, experiences, incidents, etc. that you could share with us ?
- PDN.
Here's a question regarding poles and pole lines: I've noticed that, in many cases anyway, that the poles carrying the line would occasionally have two poles, side by side with the crossarms that carry the wire doubled as well. I asked a signal maintainer friend of mine on the ICG's Iowa Division (now deceased) what these poles were. He said that they were "storm" poles although I never really got a good explanation of their use or purpose. I always thought they were for line tension but am not sure. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Los Angeles Rams Guy He said that they were "storm" poles...
Having seen numerous power pole lines go down like dominoes during Ice Storm '98, the "storm pole" concept sounds like a way to prevent just such a happening. While a single pole might not be able to withstand high winds or ice, a double pole could, and might act as a stop which would prevent a longer line of poles from going down.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
mudchickenSome of us old dinosaurs even remember when portable phones meant carrying around a canvas bag with two wire clips, a battery and a handset and clipping onto copper message phone lines.
Mudchicken: Where I grew up the SOU and N&W used the canvas bag but had a pole with a "Y" at the top, Two u shaped contactors connected to a pair of wires that came down the pole. A person out on the road pushed the pole up, turned it 90 degrees lowered it gently onto the phone line, connected their "field phone" and called whomever they needed to call. Thanks for jogging the memory! Boy would that be a great model for some one in hi- rail.
In Canada the Cdn. Broadcasting Corp (CBC) . had two trans Canada networks whose breadcasts were transmitted over the CNR and CPR wires There was also a feed over the CPR lines from Montreal to Sackville , New Brunswick through the state of Maine for CBC International Service whose antennas are still in Sackville transmitting around the world.
blue streak 1 mudchickenSome of us old dinosaurs even remember when portable phones meant carrying around a canvas bag with two wire clips, a battery and a handset and clipping onto copper message phone lines. Mudchicken: Where I grew up the SOU and N&W used the canvas bag but had a pole with a "Y" at the top, Two u shaped contactors connected to a pair of wires that came down the pole. A person out on the road pushed the pole up, turned it 90 degrees lowered it gently onto the phone line, connected their "field phone" and called whomever they needed to call. Thanks for jogging the memory! Boy would that be a great model for some one in hi- rail.
It wasn't too bad hooking the right wires in daylight, but it could be hard at night.
Some roads listed the correct wire pairs to use for each section of the railroad in the employee timetable. It didn't matter which way you got the wires as long as you got the right pair. Ah well, back to the dinosaur cave...
(and don't you also remember the "Party Line" etiquette and what sounded like yelling down a deep well on the handset plus all the noises and humming that outdid even the best soundtrack from Star Wars?)
Yet another oddity I came across concerning poles and pole lines is that some RRs had certain routes that had pole lines on both sides of the tracks. The two that come to my mind (just from pictures) is CNW's "Overland Route" mainline in Iowa (likely in Illinois as well); probably up until sometime in the early or mid-60's and the MILW's mainline between Chicago and the Twin Cities (which I saw myself back in the very early 80's) plus the MILW's "D & I" mainline between Chicago and Savanna. Why would some roads do this as opposed to having pole lines with several stacks on one side of the track?
Los Angeles Rams Guy Yet another oddity I came across concerning poles and pole lines is that some RRs had certain routes that had pole lines on both sides of the tracks. The two that come to my mind (just from pictures) is CNW's "Overland Route" mainline in Iowa (likely in Illinois as well); probably up until sometime in the early or mid-60's and the MILW's mainline between Chicago and the Twin Cities (which I saw myself back in the very early 80's) plus the MILW's "D & I" mainline between Chicago and Savanna. Why would some roads do this as opposed to having pole lines with several stacks on one side of the track?
My guess was to ease tenson on the poles by having less crossarms and running another pole line; however, someone else could answer this better.
I too remember the CNW running two pole lines on each side of the tracks from about Wheatland, IA to points east. One pole line had two crossarms and the another just one. I believe they removed these lines sometime back in the late eighties.
I always thought growing up that the more crossarms that were on the railroad's pole line, the busier the railroad; and no pole line ment branch line. Not sure if there is any truth to that. I too miss the pole line just like the caboose.
Jeff
Good Data, Thank You!
This would make a good article for Trains....
K.C.
Your best work yet. I was hoping someone would work "Wire Chief" into a post. One of those job tittles faded into history.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
TO: LA Rams Guy Would the two separate pole lines be used for........ One side of the track for railroad use and the opposite side of the track be used for Western Union or a Bell Telephone system ?
TO: KC Very interesting run down of the pole line transsmissions. I worked with CP Telecommn's as a Testing & Regulating Chief in the 1950's Similar job as a wire chief. On a pair of wires, we would have three upperband circuits, consisting of 15 private wire teletype lines per band(total 45 teletype circuits). On the lower band we would have one phone line or CBC radio broadcast line. OR there could be 3 phone lines on the upperband instead of the teletype circuits. The morse line would also be on the lower band. It's been a while back so someone might be able to correct me on this.
I worked for a while in Lac Megantic, Quebec (Just before the Maine border) We had a low power relay transmitter to supply CBC French network from Montreal to the town, which was in an isolated area
For my birthday a few months back, my son gave me a portable Leeds & Northrup Co. # 4282 ohmmeter. This is what the linemen would use to locate where a break was in the wires. It used a electrical formula called Kirchoff's law (spelling ??) The wire chief would use this also, but it was a larger unit mounted on a bay in the wire chief's or T&R Chief's office. One day a T&R Chief was driving into the Megantic office & he noticed a pair of wires were broken just near the White Rose gas station. He lied to the wire chief in Montreal that he checked his wheatstone bridge & the break was point 3 past a certain mile post. The linemen found the break at that specific point & could not figure how a weatstone bridge be so accurate.
About the two pole lines along the CNW double main. I've wondered if the signal circuits were segregated, north track circuits along the north side, south track on the south side. Communication lines would only have to be on one side, meaning one side would have more lines, and crossarms, than the other.
Concerning the locations of double poles (storm poles), I've noticed on the few derelict ones still standing that many, but I won't say all, have extra gear on the crossarms. I'm not sure if it's for signal or communications circuits, but I think it's for the latter.
I know it drives the photographers nuts, but a main line, especially single tracked ones, looks like it's missing something with out the pole lines. I'm sure the railroad doesn't miss the expense. One downside is with the lines gone, they don't keep the trees and bushes from growing on the right of way. Just the other day my conductor turned in a spot where trees had overgrown a spot and blocked the view of a block signal.
and to Kootenay Central for the details and 'atmosphere' in his post above. Thank you, sir, for taking the time to write up and preserve all of those recollections.
For more info - mostly technical - see:
http://www.telephonetribute.com/railroad_phone_equip.htm
Also Pages 1 and 3 of the ''Re: Trackside Phones'' thread here from a little over a year ago, at:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/130991.aspx?PageIndex=1 and http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/130991.aspx?PageIndex=3
- Paul North.
morseman In Canada the Cdn. Broadcasting Corp (CBC) . had two trans Canada networks whose breadcasts were transmitted over the CNR and CPR wires There was also a feed over the CPR lines from Montreal to Sackville , New Brunswick through the state of Maine for CBC International Service whose antennas are still in Sackville transmitting around the world.
Railway ManIn very rough terms:1850-1900: Communications only, first telegraph, then telegraph and telephone1900-1920: Addition of simple signal circuits to the communications circuits. These signal circuits are signal-to-signal and convey information to a given block from the adjoining blocks only. There aren't any long-haul signal circuits. Almost all signals were battery powered due to lack of widespread availability of commercial power. RWM
Despite my dad's dream that I become an electrical engineer, I haven't paid that much attention to the workings of electricity. So, I am a bit embarrassed to ask if telegraphs required electricity. I can picture my dad's old ham radio telegraph machine-thing, but I don't remember if it needed power? I'm sure it did in order to amplify the signal. Did the early telegraph's need a power source outside of the striking of the hammer against the wire?
And while I am at it, Kootenay Central...that was a great read.
tina
On the NP/BN Communication workers were members of the IBEW. My dad claimed that he had covered the whole NP by motor car. Over the years he worked at South St. Paul, Minn. Missoula, Mont., Sand Point, Idaho, Castle Rock, Wa., and Auburn, Wa. as a district lineman. On crews he worked all over Montana and North Dakota. In 1967, the Great Plains was hit with a late season ice storm that knocked all the lines out from Minn through Montana. The NP sent all but a small group of Communication workers to the storm area to replace the lines. Dad was gone for six weeks before being allowed to come home for Memorial Day. Since his vacation was scheduled to start in another week he made arrangements to drive back with all of us. We got out of school a week early and spent a week at a motel in Dickinson, ND. My dad's favorite story was about the time in 1948 that he met Harry S. Truman outside of Missoula. The President's train stopped where my dad was working. Harry got out to stretch his legs and my dad had a nice conversation on the side of the tracks. When my dad passed away, we found a lot of pictures of line crews around Missoula in the late forties. When my dad was drafted for the Korean War the Army made him a lineman. He used to laugh and claim he was one of the few that did the same job in the service that he did in civilian life. He climbed right up to the day before he retired. I'm the only one of his kids that work for the railroad, but my time in the Communication dept. was short lived (climbing and I didn't agree with each other) I work in the Mech. Dept. The pole lines on my dad's old territory were removed completely the year he died.
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