An encounter with the BNSF police

[Kiwigerd]

Can somebody please tell me why american railroads need so many police?

Here in my country we don't have special rr police at all, security is maintained by normal federal police, like anywhere else. Being a railfan, I am not aware that we are forbidden to make photos from anywere inside or outside a ry station. Of course, you are not allowed to walk on tracks, or immediately nearby, however there is no requirement of staying off 50 feet. Actually there are a lot of public walkways immediately alongside of tracks, perhaps only 15 to 20 ft away. Tracks are sometimes fenced off but not everywhere and there are sometimes inofficial footpath crossings over the track(s). Usually there is a sign "do not cross tracks" in some areas where it is considered very dangerous if people would do that, but I have never seen this being actually inforced. And I sure can't say that we have so many accidents, I think that people who do trespass usually know exactly where to look for and heed.

[ButchKnouse]

I assume in Austria trespassing idiots who get hurt can't turn around and sue for 7 figures. From what I understand about Europe, the law recognizes that people are adults.

Unlike this country.

[BaltACD]

Kiwigerd

Can somebody please tell me why american railroads need so many police?

Railroads really have very few police in comparison to the territory that each railroad covers.  One of the primary functions of RR police is to provided security to the cargo's that railroads carry and the schemes necessary to protect these cargo's 'on private property' are not a routine concern of local authorities, just the same as apprehending shop lifters in a Wal-Mart is not the concern of local authorities.  Once the law breakers have been identified and apprehended then the local legal system can take over for prosecution and trial.

Local police authorities have their hands full doing the police function in their own civilian areas, without taking on the function on the railroads private property.

In truth, there are far fewer railroad police today than there were 20/30 years ago.

[tree68]

Kiwigerd

Can somebody please tell me why American railroads need so many police?

I've never encountered a "bull" (to use the old slang term) that I knew of.  Doesn't mean I haven't, but...  I'd suspect that unless you hang around RR facilities a lot, or happen to be in an area where they've had some problems, most people won't encounter them very often.

As was mentioned, they're really more of a loss prevention agent - protecting the assets of the railroad and the goods it carries.

I think the perception of how many RR Police there are is skewed by the quickness of those who have had an encounter (good or bad) to answer up when such a topic is raised on the forum.  Keep in mind, too, that those of us who hang around the tracks are certainly more likely have an encounter than those who don't.

There are also the transit police - whose true function is ensuring that everybody who rides, pays.  Other police actions are secondary.

[videomaker]

Can somebody please tell me why american railroads need so many police?

To answer you question,To an outsider reading this forum,it may seem like there are a lot of RR Police but in actuality there are not ! RR Police are there to protect RR property and freight shipments..They work the yards and slow xings where tresspassers and transits and THEIVES are know to lurk and highjack freight shipments..If you hang around these places your going to be asked what your doing there,  Count on it ! Keep in mind that photographing trains is not what the POLICE are going to believe,unless you are a died in the wool foamer,in possesion of a scanner,camera and wearing your favorite  RRT-shirt and ball cap with all your RR pins on it..,  In the aforementioned situation the RR police have "Probable Cause to stop and detain you for field interviews and if they dont believe you,you will either get arrested or get a ticket or both ! I wish you guys that harp on this would look at it from our point of view ! We're just doing our job ! If Ive said it once Ive said it a 100 times,STAY OUT OF YARDS ! get out in the country to take your photos and you wont be bothered..  I'll get off my  now...

[R. T. POTEET]

BaltACD

In most jurisdictions Railroad Police have the full range of police powers that any other police officer has.  In today's world most Railroad Police have had prior careers with governmental police departments and are well versed in the duties and exercise of police power

This is a relic carried over from those heady days of the 19th Century when railroad was synonymous with power and they demanded and got from the legislatures of the states extraterritorial authority. This authority is badly outdated and in drastic need of repeal.

In Arizona Public Utility Companies--that's Salt River Project and Arizona Public Service--have been granted the same authority and if you think that governmental law enforcement officers are abusive tangle with one of these turkeys sometime; with enough gumption you can fight city hall--it is impossible to fight these guys because the lines of authority are so convoluted that it even comes as a surprise to the legislators that SRP and APS security personnel have law enforcement authority. Unlike government agency police officers who are subject to constitutional restrains these what I call "private property cops" are subject to none of these restraints and there have been cases here in Arizona where they have actually broken down the doors on private property supposedly searching for stolen property and they don't need a search warrant to do it.

 

[eolafan]

Kiwigerd

Can somebody please tell me why american railroads need so many police?

Here in my country we don't have special rr police at all, security is maintained by normal federal police, like anywhere else. Being a railfan, I am not aware that we are forbidden to make photos from anywere inside or outside a ry station. Of course, you are not allowed to walk on tracks, or immediately nearby, however there is no requirement of staying off 50 feet. Actually there are a lot of public walkways immediately alongside of tracks, perhaps only 15 to 20 ft away. Tracks are sometimes fenced off but not everywhere and there are sometimes inofficial footpath crossings over the track(s). Usually there is a sign "do not cross tracks" in some areas where it is considered very dangerous if people would do that, but I have never seen this being actually inforced. And I sure can't say that we have so many accidents, I think that people who do trespass usually know exactly where to look for and heed.

It might be interesting to see how many railroad police officers there are PER TRACK MILE in the various countries...I will bet you in the U.S. it is very low compared with European nations.

[SFbrkmn]

In reading your description of the encounter w/ the rr bull, it most likely was a 'rr patrolman' and not a special agent. Agents are management positions cream-of-the-crop so to speak. Patrolmen are just that--union positions which pay at a much lower rate and are made up of many wannabe types who will do anything to make a name for themselves. A good friend of mine in MO lives directly across from the UP/Amtrk KC-STL line. He photographs & tapes trains quite often from his own front yard. He is just waiting at the bit when some member of the law takes exception to this. At some point it will happen somewhere, someday to someone  and that will be so interesting once that hits the media.

[zugmann]

SFbrkmn

In reading your description of the encounter w/ the rr bull, it most likely was a 'rr patrolman' and not a special agent. Agents are management positions cream-of-the-crop so to speak. Patrolmen are just that--union positions which pay at a much lower rate and are made up of many wannabe's  Barney Fife types who will do anything to make a name for themselves. A good friend of mine in MO lives directly across from the UP/Amtrk KC-STL line. He photographs & tapes trains quite often from his own front yard. He is just waiting at the bit when some member of the law takes exception to this. At some point it will happen somewhere, someday to someone  and that will be so interesting once that hits the media.

Tell me, sir, how are they wannabes when they are actual law enforcement officers? Why would someone take exception to him filming form his property? Sounds like your good friend has a little attitude problem and is looking for a fight. The RR police we have here have tons of territory to cover and one hell of a dangerous job. Looking for thieves in the middle of a railroad yard in the dead of night has to be a little unnerving. Not like help is 3 minutes away.

[pajrr]

It seems to me that the people who have a problem with railroad police doing their jobs are the ones who are caught where they don't belong. Some railfans feel that railroads "owe them" because they are railfans and above all others. These police are doing their jobs. If they ask you to move, you move. I was on a bus trip to a RR facility. We were told by the RR police you may go up to the open gate, not go through it. One of these railfans on the trip marched right through the gate oblivious to everything. The result? Everyone was ordered back on the bus and the bus was escorted off the property. Come on people. You are railfans. you like trains. That doesn't mean that railroads have to like you. I think they tolerate us quite nicely. Don't blow it for everyone else.

[Anonymous]

 

SFbrkmn

In reading your description of the encounter w/ the rr bull, it most likely was a 'rr patrolman' and not a special agent. Agents are management positions cream-of-the-crop so to speak. Patrolmen are just that--union positions which pay at a much lower rate and are made up of many wannabe's  Barney Fife types who will do anything to make a name for themselves. A good friend of mine in MO lives directly across from the UP/Amtrk KC-STL line. He photographs & tapes trains quite often from his own front yard. He is just waiting at the bit when some member of the law takes exception to this. At some point it will happen somewhere, someday to someone  and that will be so interesting once that hits the media.

 

You do a complete diservice to the men and women who serve to protect us.  I resent ANYONE who has the gall to insult ANY law enforcement official as a "Barney Fife type".

 

[Poppa_Zit]

SFbrkmn

In reading your description of the encounter w/ the rr bull, it most likely was a 'rr patrolman' and not a special agent. Agents are management positions cream-of-the-crop so to speak. Patrolmen are just that--union positions which pay at a much lower rate and are made up of many wannabe's  Barney Fife types who will do anything to make a name for themselves. A good friend of mine in MO lives directly across from the UP/Amtrk KC-STL line. He photographs & tapes trains quite often from his own front yard. He is just waiting at the bit when some member of the law takes exception to this. At some point it will happen somewhere, someday to someone  and that will be so interesting once that hits the media.

Your friend is a raging paranoid, I'm afraid. And I'll bet you're one of those goofs who inspired the name "foamer".

Regarding your stupid statement "Patrolmen are just that--union positions which pay at a much lower rate and are made up of many wannabe's, Barney Fife, etc." you attempt to denegrate RR officers because of their income level. I'll bet that's because they make more than you, or you applied for the job and were rejected because you weren't smart enough.

For years, Florida State Troopers were very poorly paid, starting about $23,000. Our Illinois troops start at about twice that, and I can tell you both states get the same strong effort from those folks. You seem to have some sort of anger problem with authority figures, which at some point it will manifest itself somewhere, someday to you and that will be so interesting once that hits the media, too.

[zardoz]

Murray

You do a complete diservice to the men and women who serve to protect us.  I resent ANYONE who has the gall to insult ANY law enforcement official as a "Barney Fife type".

However, it might be a good idea to remember that they are not all heroes, and, like in any profession, it is the selfish, disreputable, non-dedicated persons that ruin the reputation of the honest, diligent, hard-working ones. Whether it be police, lawyers, train engineers, etc., there are always a few that ruin it for the rest. As always, it is best to judge each person individually, rather than being bigoted and lumping any particular group of people into some pre-defined set of attributes.

Some cops are Barney-Fife types. But many of them are true heroes.

[Anonymous]

The problem is that too many people tend to stereotype police officials in this light when they are only trying to do their job.  I find it very hard to believe that police officials go out of their way to hassle individuals, many of whom are in places where they should not be.

[zardoz]

Murray

The problem is that too many people tend to stereotype police officials in this light when they are only trying to do their job.

Quite correct.

Murray

I find it very hard to believe that police officials go out of their way to hassle individuals

The hard working, honest, dedicated police will not; the Barney Fife's will.

[Soo 6604]

I just have a few questions about "Railroad Police" and what they can or cannot do.

If your driving down the street (in Wisconsin) and your not wearing your seatbelt, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you come upon a stop sign and do a "rolling stop", can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you turn without using your directional, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? Let's say in any of the questions listed above that they can, and you decided not to pull over but "run" from the Police, can the RR Police pursue you on a "high-speed" chase?

The RR police protects the company that they work for. City/State/County Police protects the people that they serve. The protection of passed laws is the objective of the Police. Protection of private property is the RR Police objective. Before you say that they have the same training that the police have, carry guns, yada yada yada, so does the Pinkerton Guard or any guards that are in the armed security field.

So basically (IMHO) is that the Police protects you and your property, while the RR Police protects the companys property they are hired to protect.

I agree to the poster who wrote that they are underpaid (should be one of the higher paid jobs out there). They also do a thankless job, but as in everything, a bad apple can ruin a whole bushel of apples, just like ralfans, campers, racefans ect. Only takes one to make a lasting mark.

 

[chatanuga]

zardoz

Murray

You do a complete diservice to the men and women who serve to protect us.  I resent ANYONE who has the gall to insult ANY law enforcement official as a "Barney Fife type".

However, it might be a good idea to remember that they are not all heroes, and, like in any profession, it is the selfish, disreputable, non-dedicated persons that ruin the reputation of the honest, diligent, hard-working ones. Whether it be police, lawyers, train engineers, etc., there are always a few that ruin it for the rest. As always, it is best to judge each person individually, rather than being bigoted and lumping any particular group of people into some pre-defined set of attributes.

Some cops are Barney-Fife types. But many of them are true heroes.

True.  Most people in law enforcement are good people, like my brother and sister-in-law, who are willing to go above and beyond for the rest of us.

Granted, I do call my brother "Barney", but he knows I'm joking since it's more in reference to the accident he had in 1992 with our dad's gun and the refrigerator and kitchen door.

Kevin

[ButchKnouse]

Soo 6604

I just have a few questions about "Railroad Police" and what they can or cannot do.

If your driving down the street (in Wisconsin) and your not wearing your seatbelt, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you come upon a stop sign and do a "rolling stop", can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you turn without using your directional, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? Let's say in any of the questions listed above that they can, and you decided not to pull over but "run" from the Police, can the RR Police pursue you on a "high-speed" chase?

The RR police protects the company that they work for. City/State/County Police protects the people that they serve. The protection of passed laws is the objective of the Police. Protection of private property is the RR Police objective. Before you say that they have the same training that the police have, carry guns, yada yada yada, so does the Pinkerton Guard or any guards that are in the armed security field.

So basically (IMHO) is that the Police protects you and your property, while the RR Police protects the companys property they are hired to protect.

I agree to the poster who wrote that they are underpaid (should be one of the higher paid jobs out there). They also do a thankless job, but as in everything, a bad apple can ruin a whole bushel of apples, just like ralfans, campers, racefans ect. Only takes one to make a lasting mark.

 

You mean those minimum wage rent-a-cops have the full police training?

In some states theoretically I suppose the RR police could enfore the law provided they were in some kind of marked vehicle.

BUT, their job is to police their RR. Perhaps in some massive disaster or civil unrest the RR police might be called on to assist the regular authorities, provided that particular state is satisified with their qualifications. Maybe they are a some sort of reserve force in some states.

Does anyone know of a time when RR police were called out to help regular cops, say during Katrina?

[videomaker]

Soo 6604

I just have a few questions about "Railroad Police" and what they can or cannot do.

If your driving down the street (in Wisconsin) and your not wearing your seatbelt, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you come upon a stop sign and do a "rolling stop", can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? If you turn without using your directional, can the RR Police pull you over and issue you a ticket? Let's say in any of the questions listed above that they can, and you decided not to pull over but "run" from the Police, can the RR Police pursue you on a "high-speed" chase?

The RR police protects the company that they work for. City/State/County Police protects the people that they serve. The protection of passed laws is the objective of the Police. Protection of private property is the RR Police objective. Before you say that they have the same training that the police have, carry guns, yada yada yada, so does the Pinkerton Guard or any guards that are in the armed security field.

So basically (IMHO) is that the Police protects you and your property, while the RR Police protects the companys property they are hired to protect.

I agree to the poster who wrote that they are underpaid (should be one of the higher paid jobs out there). They also do a thankless job, but as in everything, a bad apple can ruin a whole bushel of apples, just like ralfans, campers, racefans ect. Only takes one to make a lasting mark.

 

 In Texas,Police Officers are Licesed by the state commission on Law Enforcement Officers statndards and education after they have been to a basic police academy for approx. 12-16 weeks,then  pass a written exam before graduation, and are put with a training officer for about a month before being put on the street by themselves..They are on probation for 6 mths at any given department ,so it takes about a yr just to get your feet on the ground and be confident in your new skills..Then comes experience,This all happens in large departs. like Dallas,Houston,FT. Wth. etc..

If you hire out as a patrolman or Spl Agt for the RR,the aforemention training is a prerequisit...Most other states have the same or similular licensing requirements(there may be a few exceptions) and if you are licensed in one state you can contest the other requiremt and take a test,if you pass the test that state can license you if you have a clean background and meet all that states other requirements..

So,basically any state you work for the RR in, you are a licensed police officer..Most RR police depts DO NOT ENFORCE traffic laws ! AS they have other duties(like stopping RR thefts and tresspassers and conducting investigations)  and dont sit at stops signs waiting for someone to run it ! 

 I might add that in Tx. Rent a Cops (security gaurds) are a whole different ball game and dont come close to being in the same sentence as POLIC OFFICER !

I hope this clears up any confusion you guys (railfans) may have about the RR POLICE no matter where you live in the USA... 

[Awesome!]

Let me get this straight if a RR Police ask for I.D. I have to show my I.D.? I thought they were Security Officers? 

[Anonymous]

 I´ve just stumbled over this thread and I must say, that I am amazed how vast the difference in treating rail fans is between continental Europe and the US is. In an earlier post, Kiwigerd, has pretty much described the situation you find in most European countries - a much more relaxed attitude based on a little more respect. If there is a sign "Don´t cross the tracks" people just don´t do it and therefore you don´t need anybody special to enforce it.

Even in communistic East Germany, you were fairly free to move and take pictures, unless you pointed your cameras to trains loaded with army equipment or any other object of strategic importance.

In Britain, the situation has changed completely, following the bombings in the Subway and a bus in London. Standing at railroad tracks and taking pictures will get you in serious trouble nowadays.

As you guys over the big pond are celebrating Independance Day today - remember it is the "Land of the Free!"

[pajrr]

To answer your Question Awesome! the answer to your question is YES. And I have seen on one occassion a RR policeman issuing a traffic ticket on a street, although I don't know the circumstances behind it. Maybe the driver did something stupid and the RR policeman just happened to see him. But, no, RR police don't normally patrol your local downtown like your town police do.

[BaltACD]

Sir Madog

 I´ve just stumbled over this thread and I must say, that I am amazed how vast the difference in treating rail fans is between continental Europe and the US is. In an earlier post, Kiwigerd, has pretty much described the situation you find in most European countries - a much more relaxed attitude based on a little more respect. If there is a sign "Don´t cross the tracks" people just don´t do it and therefore you don´t need anybody special to enforce it.

Even in communistic East Germany, you were fairly free to move and take pictures, unless you pointed your cameras to trains loaded with army equipment or any other object of strategic importance.

In Britain, the situation has changed completely, following the bombings in the Subway and a bus in London. Standing at railroad tracks and taking pictures will get you in serious trouble nowadays.

As you guys over the big pond are celebrating Independence Day today - remember it is the "Land of the Free!"

As you state the Britain's outlook changed after their bombings....the US outlook changed after 9/11.  One carrier that I am aware of got to greet the 4th of July by responding to a pipe bomb scare.

[Anonymous]

 I know we should not get too political in this forum, but I find it very, very sad, that our individual rights in the western world are getting curtailed day by day, without resulting in the necessary improvement in public security.

 I will follow by the rules, but also continue to do my railfanning...

[videomaker]

Awesome!

Let me get this straight if a RR Police ask for I.D. I have to show my I.D.? I thought they were Security Officers? 

YES ! You better ! (IF they pull up to you in a marked are unmarked car and they are in uniform their patch says RR POLICE  )  If you dont,its failure to ID the same as any police asking for it !

[zardoz]

videomaker

Awesome!

Let me get this straight if a RR Police ask for I.D. I have to show my I.D.? I thought they were Security Officers? 

YES ! You better ! (IF they pull up to you in a marked are unmarked car and they are in uniform their patch says RR POLICE  )  If you dont,its failure to ID the same as any police asking for it !

My understanding is that we (so far, at least) are NOT required to carry identification, unless one is doing something that requires documentation (i.e. driving); however, you ARE required to answer their questions regarding your personal identification (name, etc).

[zugmann]

ButchKnouse

Does anyone know of a time when RR police were called out to help regular cops, say during Katrina?

 A few years ago, an amtrak officer was actually shot while asissting a local police department here in PA with a domestic disturbance.  Was at a private residence off of RR property, the amtrak officer wasproviding asistance.  I'm a little sketchy with remembering details, but the officer was ok... just a minor wound. 

 

[videomaker]

zugmann

ButchKnouse

Does anyone know of a time when RR police were called out to help regular cops, say during Katrina?

 A few years ago, an amtrak officer was actually shot while asissting a local police department here in PA with a domestic disturbance.  Was at a private residence off of RR property, the amtrak officer wasproviding asistance.  I'm a little sketchy with remembering details, but the officer was ok... just a minor wound. 

 

Here again it would depend on the situation I guess,if the Amtrak officer was in close enough proxemity to help he certaintly could..During Katrina Im sure all of UP and BNSF and KCS and any other RR that had POLICE in N O at that time had there hands full with RR shipments getting them out of harms way..The RR comes first..  

[The Butler]

Sir Madog

 I´ve just stumbled over this thread and I must say, that I am amazed how vast the difference in treating rail fans is between continental Europe and the US is. In an earlier post, Kiwigerd, has pretty much described the situation you find in most European countries - a much more relaxed attitude based on a little more respect. If there is a sign "Don´t cross the tracks" people just don´t do it and therefore you don´t need anybody special to enforce it.

Even in communistic East Germany, you were fairly free to move and take pictures, unless you pointed your cameras to trains loaded with army equipment or any other object of strategic importance.

In Britain, the situation has changed completely, following the bombings in the Subway and a bus in London. Standing at railroad tracks and taking pictures will get you in serious trouble nowadays.

As you guys over the big pond are celebrating Independance Day today - remember it is the "Land of the Free!"

Respect is becoming harder to find here in the U.S., most notably in our metropolitan areas.

[doghouse]

R. T. POTEET

[This is a relic carried over from those heady days of the 19th Century when railroad was synonymous with power and they demanded and got from the legislatures of the states extraterritorial authority. This authority is badly outdated and in drastic need of repeal.

In Arizona Public Utility Companies--that's Salt River Project and Arizona Public Service--have been granted the same authority and if you think that governmental law enforcement officers are abusive tangle with one of these turkeys sometime; with enough gumption you can fight city hall--it is impossible to fight these guys because the lines of authority are so convoluted that it even comes as a surprise to the legislators that SRP and APS security personnel have law enforcement authority. Unlike government agency police officers who are subject to constitutional restrains these what I call "private property cops" are subject to none of these restraints and there have been cases here in Arizona where they have actually broken down the doors on private property supposedly searching for stolen property and they don't need a search warrant to do it.

 

 

What?