Having been involved in emergency response issues related to public transportation planning, 21 minutes is unacceptable. Period.
This incident and subsequent notoriety in nearby Wisconsin will not help the CN with EJ&E issues.
21 minutes was enough for the Sheriff to get a couple of people up the line in each direction to flag any train that happened along...until the got some confirmaton from CN. Whether it was the Sheriff's legal responsibility or not, it would have been the right thing to do.
WWKSD?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I know one of the Assistant Fire Chiefs in Rockford. As a city with substantial manufacturing and railroad activity, they are well schooled to deal with conditions such as came up in the time before the accident.
I'm going on record predicting that the finding will be that someone in the CN organization dropped the ball. Give the CN person taking the initial call 5 minutes to be certain of the track location and contact the appropriate dispatch desk and give the dispatcher no more than 5 minutes to contact the crew on the radio. If their procedures are such that they cannot respond that quickly-I think I am being generous-then they really need to get it together.
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edbenton Some Injury Lawyer right now is GOING I JUST HIT THE FREAKING JACKPOT. Self insured RR given 21 minutes of ADVANCE warning by Law Enforcement Still DID NOTHING to prevent this. 100 MILLION TO ME MINAMUM PER CLINET in the INJURED CASES 400 MILLION in the death I am going to Retire to the Cayman Islands and there is NOTHING YOU CAn DO ABOUT IT.
Some Injury Lawyer right now is GOING I JUST HIT THE FREAKING JACKPOT. Self insured RR given 21 minutes of ADVANCE warning by Law Enforcement Still DID NOTHING to prevent this. 100 MILLION TO ME MINAMUM PER CLINET in the INJURED CASES 400 MILLION in the death I am going to Retire to the Cayman Islands and there is NOTHING YOU CAn DO ABOUT IT.
To the extent the facts are what you expect them to be: yes and no. A case of this nature is certainly a great case for a plaintiffs' lawyer to have, and whoever the lawyer is, is probably licking his or her chops right now.
That having been said, you grossly inflate the values here. There is a preception in America that greatly exceeds reality concerning the value of lawsuits. This is a real problem, as it always makes settlement more difficult.
Even if you subtract on zero from you numbers, they are still grossly high.
Gabe
Anybody know where the calls to the number displayed on CN crossing go? For CSX, they go to Jacksonville.
Anybody know where the dispatcher for that line is located? The DS for CSX lines in most of NY is at Selkirk.
Anybody know how much territory that DS covers?
I tend to agree that 21 minutes may be a bit long, but consider that at each level there are probably documentation requirements. If the call was made via dispatch rather than the deputy doing so directly, the sheriff's dispatcher may have made entries into their logs before picking up the phone. They may not have CN on speed dial and had to dig up their "quick reference" card, or had to ask the deputy to get the number for them off the crossing. All that relaying back and forth takes time.
Depending on the relative locations of the CN call taker and the DS for that territory, there may have been delays in that notification process as well. The DS may have been tied up on other business.
No one along the line of communication may have realized there was a train full of ethanol bearing down on that place at track speed, other than the dispatcher - thus there may not have been a sense of urgency in the communications. Kinda reminds me of "Silver Streak."
In the end, we'll have to wait for whatever facts become public before we can truly evaluate and judge. It may be that everyone put forth their best effort, but that wasn't quite enough. Or someone may have dropped the ball (or the sticky note). Regardless, it's likely there will be damages, and CN may be a while digging out from under the bad publicity.
On emergency responses - there are varying standards depending on type of area (urban, rural). Dispatch standards and practices can vary as well. We're currently in a situation locally where the dispatcher must manually enter some information before responding agencies can be "toned out." It can take 45 seconds to get the "music" playing. Once some technical issues are ironed out, that time will be cut to about a third of what it's currently taking.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
But there are no trains on the Cayman Islands!
Seriously, though...it is not that the CN did nothing but rather what did they do? Who did the Sheriff's Department actually call, what did they actually tell the person who answered the call, and what was the chain to the train? And while I am not accusing anybody of anything nor defending anybody or anything, it just definitely is not a simple black and white, 1 and 0, answer.
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edbenton You are an Emergancy Operator with the CN and a Sherriff in IL calls in with the Milepost and crossing since this did happen at the croosing of a road reporting water over the road and washed out tracks. It is not rocket science to realize that maybe we might need to HOLD traffic until OUR CREWS LOOK AT IT. Especially since there were other Flash flood watches and warnings and T-storms in the area recently. Instead what did CN do send a loaded Ethanol train through at track speed basically and 1 is dead and 3 are still in critical condition in the burn unit. You have to remember Hunter Harrison Philosophy is in charge of the Railroad you had better be sure there is something wrong before you delay a train. At least that is what it seems to me anymore.
You are an Emergancy Operator with the CN and a Sherriff in IL calls in with the Milepost and crossing since this did happen at the croosing of a road reporting water over the road and washed out tracks. It is not rocket science to realize that maybe we might need to HOLD traffic until OUR CREWS LOOK AT IT. Especially since there were other Flash flood watches and warnings and T-storms in the area recently. Instead what did CN do send a loaded Ethanol train through at track speed basically and 1 is dead and 3 are still in critical condition in the burn unit. You have to remember Hunter Harrison Philosophy is in charge of the Railroad you had better be sure there is something wrong before you delay a train. At least that is what it seems to me anymore.
Who forgot or ignored the 1st rule in the book = 'Safety is of the first importance in the perfomance of duties' [Q]
No great insights here, but a couple of thoughts;
For sure, someone - or more thant one - really 'dropped the ball' on this, and now has 'some 'splainin' to do'. Unless they've got a really good excuse or reason - like all the communications links were non-functional - they're likely out of a job real soon. As well, their direct supervisors for a layer or two, for failing to train and provide preventative oversight - as happened with the contract operator's staff in the Chatsworth, California MetroLink 'texting while operating' passenger train wreck last Sept.
For a major Class I railroad, what is the standard for an acceptable speed for urgent internal communications [Q] I could see a minute or two for a phone or radio call [or e-mail if appropriate] or two to get it to the right person, and then out to the train crew or to set a signal to STOP - maybe as much as 5 minutes. Beyond that starts to feel awfully slow. For comparison, what are the times for a 9-1-1 dispatch center [Q] I recall reading that the standard time for actual arrival of the emergency medical services, or police, or fire company, etc. is in the 7 to 9 minute range after the call was made. A year or so ago we had a case of a much-delayed 9-1-1 call in nearby Bucks Co. if I recall correctly - as a pretty much result the handicapped woman died in or from the fire. Compared to that, this don't look so good. It would also be interesting to see if CN touted its 'advanced instantaneous communications systems' in any company literature - that could be pretty 'incriminating', as well.
The other aspect is the legal doctrines regarding agents, servants, and employees, etc. In many instances, giving notice to anyone in the organization - except maybe the janitor, to use an extreme example - can be deemed to have been effective as notice to the entire organization, and esp. those who need to know and can do something about it. It's up to them to have the internal communications and systems set up to accomplish that [see above].
- Paul North.
Some news coverage:
http://www.rrstar.com/news/publicsafety/x998780895/Train-derails-Railway-given-21-minute-warning
Apparently there were several 911 calls from the public reporting an obvious washout prior to the wreck. A squad was dispatched to the scene and the washout was video taped. I gather the washout was not developed enough to derail the train until much of it had passed over it. I assume that the passing locomotives and cars further deteriorated the track support that had been compromised by the washout. Perhaps CN did not react quick enough, but we don’t know exactly what part of CN the police called.
I wonder what, if anything, the engineer felt as the locomotive crossed the washout.
henry6 Gabe is right....21 minutes may or may not be enough time...prove it. "Called" the railroad is an interesting phrase: who did they call on the railroad, what did they tell the railroad, what did the railroad ask them? How long did the call take? Joe blow finds a telephone number for the railroad, calls it and says there is water over your tracks in Thistown. The railroad has to determine where Thistown is and what does the caller mean water over the tracks. OR: A law enforcement officer calls a specified emergency number and says that there was five inches of water above the rail at precisely MP XX.X on the Thistown Sub of the A Division. The communication, the message, the giving and recieving messengers, the interpretations, the routing of the message after the initial contact and the total time it might take from the placement of the intitial message to the final delivering of the message can vary because of so many factors. I remember stopping on the side of the road and calling the NS 800 police number when I saw a tree laying across the eastbound track just west of Campville, NY. He asked me for milepost number, which I was able to give. He got some other information and assured it would be passed on. About 3 miles further on I came across a gang of NS trucks, no one working, just sitting, near a bridge and grade crossing in Owego, NY, so I stopped and told them of the tree across the tracks...it was at least five minutes since I spoke with the NS police. But they had not yet been reached about the tree (and they admitted they should be notified). So there is 5 minutes of the 21 minutes consumed in the CN scenerio in which no message had been relayed (if indeed we can transpose one time scenerio to the other). In an non railroad instance I once called 911 to report an accident or situation,I can't remember which. But it took a full three minutes before the 911 dispatcher contacted a car. I can cite several other instances of incident to report to reaction timing taking up to five minutes for various reasons because of the number of parties involved in the chain of communication. So, again, 21 may or may not be enough time for total chain of communicants to complete the delivery of a message.
Gabe is right....21 minutes may or may not be enough time...prove it. "Called" the railroad is an interesting phrase: who did they call on the railroad, what did they tell the railroad, what did the railroad ask them? How long did the call take? Joe blow finds a telephone number for the railroad, calls it and says there is water over your tracks in Thistown. The railroad has to determine where Thistown is and what does the caller mean water over the tracks. OR: A law enforcement officer calls a specified emergency number and says that there was five inches of water above the rail at precisely MP XX.X on the Thistown Sub of the A Division. The communication, the message, the giving and recieving messengers, the interpretations, the routing of the message after the initial contact and the total time it might take from the placement of the intitial message to the final delivering of the message can vary because of so many factors. I remember stopping on the side of the road and calling the NS 800 police number when I saw a tree laying across the eastbound track just west of Campville, NY. He asked me for milepost number, which I was able to give. He got some other information and assured it would be passed on. About 3 miles further on I came across a gang of NS trucks, no one working, just sitting, near a bridge and grade crossing in Owego, NY, so I stopped and told them of the tree across the tracks...it was at least five minutes since I spoke with the NS police. But they had not yet been reached about the tree (and they admitted they should be notified). So there is 5 minutes of the 21 minutes consumed in the CN scenerio in which no message had been relayed (if indeed we can transpose one time scenerio to the other). In an non railroad instance I once called 911 to report an accident or situation,I can't remember which. But it took a full three minutes before the 911 dispatcher contacted a car. I can cite several other instances of incident to report to reaction timing taking up to five minutes for various reasons because of the number of parties involved in the chain of communication. So, again, 21 may or may not be enough time for total chain of communicants to complete the delivery of a message.
Actually, I do not have a position, other than I do not know whether 21 minutes is enough but--if it is--I believe that CN has some real legal problems.
Had this incident happened on a railroad back in the 60's when they were of a managable size I'd venture a guess (only a guess) that 21 minutes would probably have been enough time, assuming that todays communications, cell phones etc, were available.
But back to reality. It appears CN needs to beef up the knowledge of those answering the phone number that the emergency services will call. I don't know which former RR line this occured, but does CN have one central phone number for these types of calls? Or is it the old Soo, old Wisconcons Sou, or some other older phone number?
CN's legal dept should be all over these questions, the plaintif's sure will be.
Has there been any description of the washout? Apparently the police must have seen it or gotten a report from someone who had.
Lets see here 21 minutes if he gave them the location via the Mile marker and better yet the closest Gradde crossing ID number then it is MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME. IIRC those calls and Mudchicken and others can back me up on this go to the Roadmasters desk so he has the power to pull that line up and PUT A STOP TO ALL TRAFFIC on the line. I do not want to be the CN's Lawyers on this case 3 victims with 3rd degreee burns 1 that burned to death and they had 21 mins to prevent it.
I read the story today about the sheriff's office calling CN 21 minutes before the derailment on the Iowa division, to warn the railroad of the washout. Unfortunately, nothing was done, the train derailed, an ethanol car exploded, and a motorist died.
Initially, sorrow goes out for the motorist.
Putting on my non-human attorney's hat, I am just wincing thinking about the liability here. Any time you have a tragic death caused by major industry, you are dealing with a pretty strong claim to begin with. Throw in facts that make it look entirely preventable to average Joe Jurror . . . oh man.
Anyway, my question is: should the 21 minutes obviously been enough, is 21 minutes never enough, or is it a grey area? Does anyone know any other facts that might sway things one way or the other.
For the record, I am not licensed to practice law in Illinois, have no connection with any lawsuit or pending lawsuit, am not in communication with other attorneys on this matter, and though I hope the family of the motorist is fairly dealt with regarding the tragic loss, I certainly do not want to see bell rung against CN.
My interests are purely academic, both as a rail fan and an attorney.
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