I'm noticing that even very busy mainlines are now becoming more overgrown with weeds...in the past the railroads took care to keep the weeds off and ballast clean..but how important is this?..
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
June generally starts the weed spray season in the Northern part of the country...one carrier I am aware of has at least 2 weed spray trains operating on their property. They can't spray when it is raining.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The mixture of herbicides I use, when sprayed on dry weeds, will be effective even if it rains one hour after application. I add a surfactant that helps the herbicide "stick".
UlrichI'm noticing that even very busy mainlines are now becoming more overgrown with weeds...in the past the railroads took care to keep the weeds off and ballast clean..but how important is this?..
Time of year? Look back in the fall after the spring and summer rains stop. This is the prime time for all the wheat and grain sorghum that leaked out of the covered hoppers to sprout, along with the indigenous weeds.
Restrictions on weed spraying are much different than in the past. Back in the old days a railway could spray with any herbicide it took a fancy too, or waste oil. Now there's permitting that restrrict certain herbicides in certain places, with fish habitat, time of year, etc., figuring in.
RWM
We sprayed all our yards this May...our contractor used a "super" version of roundup...makes the weeds and such over grow to the point they burn themselves up, they grow faster than they can photosynticize...
23 17 46 11
I have a vid on youtube of a truck spraying weed killer on the main going to the S Line
killer dragonoz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMUF7vnbKn8 Now try it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMUF7vnbKn8
Now try it.
Mike
thanks for making the link work
CShaveRRI'll let the Mudchicken or RWM give you the horror stories about what unchecked weed growth can do to a roadbed, but yes, killing the weeds is important. It's probably one of the easiest places to cut costs, though, in a bad economy. Most railroads use private contractors for spraying these days, and it's easy enough to just not hire anyone this time around. I should also point out another possibility: I noticed, when I came to work at the beginning of my work week, that the sprayer had been through over my off days--the rails on all of "my" leads were kind of grayish from the liquid application. Yet, these things seem to take a while--the crop of grasses and other stuff growing in this area were still pretty green today. I hope the rains we've had didn't negate the herbicide application.
I should also point out another possibility: I noticed, when I came to work at the beginning of my work week, that the sprayer had been through over my off days--the rails on all of "my" leads were kind of grayish from the liquid application. Yet, these things seem to take a while--the crop of grasses and other stuff growing in this area were still pretty green today. I hope the rains we've had didn't negate the herbicide application.
The hyper fertilizer answer above is true for Monsanto Roundup....
Horror Stories - I got arrested (almost) by county sherriff account my contractor weedspray truck was blamed for people getting sick in a town of 9000(Juan & JoeBob in the local K-Mart mopped the floor of the store with mixture of bleach and ammonia - Naw, that couldn't be the cause!?)
mudchicken(Juan & JoeBob in the local K-Mart mopped the floor of the store with mixture of bleach and ammonia - Naw, that couldn't be the cause!?)
MUD: When is the public going to be told how bad that combination is. For those of you who don't know it is a highly poisonous gas!!!!!!!!!!!!
My chemistry courses are too far in the past to be confident of anything without looking it up, but:
Since bleach is mainly chlorine - Cl-2, and ammonia is either N-H3 or N2-H3, I'm thinking that the chorine gas is the evil by-product ? (I know ammonia gas can be deadly, too, but chlorine is more so ?)
I'm not trying to give those who might be ill-intentioned any ideas here, but instead to better educate those of us who are prudent and responsible as to what the hazards can be from a seemingly innocent attempt to just do a really super job of clean-up - you know, "Well, in case that doesn't work, we jusrt add this !", or, "Add some of that, too !", or "Use this, too !", or "If some is good, more is better !". We all know that type, right ?
- Paul North.
Ulrich I'm noticing that even very busy mainlines are now becoming more overgrown with weeds...in the past the railroads took care to keep the weeds off and ballast clean..but how important is this?..
What does "overgrown with weeds" mean in this context ? Depends on where the weeds are, too. Out beyond the toe of the ballast shoulder - say, 5 ft. from the nearest rail - is not too troublesome, because the subgrade is mainly dirt and fines there anyway, and it's usually not part of the support for the track.
But if the weeds are in the center of the track - then that's a problem. Actually, weeds there are just the surface-indicator of a more serious underlying problem - namely, dirty or fouled ballast. Even weeds will have a hard time growing in clean, crushed stone ballast. But, if the ballast is fouled or contaminated by any of: a lot of sand (such as from locomotives), leaked or spilled dirt, sand, or stone, coal, clay, ore fines, mud "pumping" up from underneath, abraded / broken down ballast fragments, spilled seed, etc. - then the weeds will find it a lot easier to grow. Fixing the problem, however, should be more than just spraying the weeds - before too long, the original "root" cause ought to be identified and addressed, and the ballast ought to be cleaned. Without that, the weeds will likely just return eventually (though that depends on whether the herbicide is pre-emergent or post-emergent, etc.). In the meantime, the ballast is still clogged, only now with the carcasses of the dead weeds and their roots adding their bulk to further impede the drainage in the void spaces between the ballast particles - not a good situation.
An interesting observation: we often hear about how fragile our ecosystem is...yet plant life can apparently flourish in the most hostile conditions. Keeping plant life off of a busy mainline right of way seems to be a major undertaking. Mother Nature may be be more resilient than we think.
Exactly. The plant portion of the ecosystems are indeed generally amazingly persistent and tenacious, in the aggregate, esp. in areas with decent amounts of rainfall (I doubt that the symptoms you describe are much of a problem in - say, the Mojave Desert or in the Great Salt Lake Basin, etc.).
I'm no botanist or biologist, but keep in mind that redwood trees and Joshua (?) trees or bristlecone pines typically live for 4,000 years, small plants survive even above the alpine treelines, their root systems can split rocks over a few decades, and over a few millenia the plants can turn rock into soil, etc. Also, even after a volcano (Mt. St. Helens) or wildfires (Califronia) or forest fires (Yellowstone National Park), that seemingly hostile environment will nevertheless be acceptable and even ideal for some species of plant or another to colonize and re-establish growth there, and start chemically and physically modifying the ash and soil, etc. to be suitable for other plants. Even if one speciies doesn't like it, another one will. Their success often can be attributed to the huge numbers of seeds being spread - if even only a small percentage survive, that may be success enough to assure continued propagation of the plant. Here in the NorthEast U.S., many areas have problems with fast-spreading invasive species of plants taking over and crowding out the locals, of which the infamous Southern Kuzdu vine is only one of many. Hey - you gotta have respect for a life-form like that ! Plus, growing in the tracks assures that there won't be a lot of wildlife or livestock grazing on the weeds, either.
As the hydrologsts and other who deal with floods and floodplains often recognize: "In the long run, 'Mother Nature' always wins." I believe there's also a school of thought among the ecologists and botanists that in the end, the plants will inherit the earth. Further, keep in mind that the science of geology tells us that all coal and oil comes from plants that are millions or hundreds of millions of years old. Since it seems they've been around for a long time compared to us humans, why should we expect that ability to adapt and survive to now change much and stop functioning ?
CShaveRR Most railroads use private contractors for spraying these days, and it's easy enough to just not hire anyone this time around.
One acception there Carl. Joe Koh sent me a photo of CSX's sprayer train. It takes care of the weeds.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Ulrich An interesting observation: we often hear about how fragile our ecosystem is...yet plant life can apparently flourish in the most hostile conditions. Keeping plant life off of a busy mainline right of way seems to be a major undertaking. Mother Nature may be be more resilient than we think.
Growing up in Southern Illinois, the local IC branchline got the sprayer about this time each year. One day after the sprayer went thru, my buddies and I walked down to the trestle over the Long Branch.
Much to our surprise the creek held fish...they were dead.
Things have changed quite a bit in the passing years, that probably couldnt happen today.
ed
I grew up in Northern New Jersey in the 1970s. It seemed perfectly normal for weeds to grow in the tracks in those days because I didn't know any better. Today I know it's because of deferred maintenance on account of the poor financial shape of railroads in the 1970s and early 1980s.
Today I know that foliage that grows on tracks (and in ballast) is the sign of bad railroad maintenance. Ballast that is dirty enough to grow weeds is not clean enough for a railroad. Instead of weed killer the ballast should be cleaned instead.
UlrichAn interesting observation: we often hear about how fragile our ecosystem is...yet plant life can apparently flourish in the most hostile conditions. Keeping plant life off of a busy mainline right of way seems to be a major undertaking. Mother Nature may be be more resilient than we think.
With herbicide application the concentrations vary across the roadbed section, killing everything in the ballast area while the side slopes are untouched. The problem lies in the fringe area with lower concentrations. Only the hardiest, most invasive species survive here, poised to recolonize the ballast as soon as the residual herbicide fades. So the unfortunate, but perhaps unavoidable, result is that the cycle soon starts anew.
On main lines with clean stone ballast the weeds still have trouble gaining a foothold, but all too often grain or other commodities have leaked into the ballast and provide the necessary nutrients. And plants killed by the herbicide also decompose in situ to support the new crop. Of course many branch lines were ballasted with gravel rather than crushed stone and are an even bigger problem.
While vegetation will speed the degradation of the track structure, a more critical issue is that if you can't see the rails clearly it is very difficult to spot any defects.
John
cx500 - Thanks for those additional details of the variation across the track cross-section, and the other aspects of this problem, too.
Now for a humorous note: Our "homestead" property of 2-1/2 acres has quite of few of said invasive plants. For the past several years, we've been using several methods to get rid of them - brush-hog, pulling by hand, heavy black plastic cover, Roundup, etc. Next: Goats ! (Credit for this goes to my wife - I'm just the facilitator here.) Pending approval from our local zoning board in about a week (we're in a residential zone, so the "raising and keeping of livestock" is not a permitted use "by right" - but we likely will be able to obtain a "temporary use" permit), we'll be renting 2 female Boer goats for a couple weeks at a time ($25 per week). With 4 stomachs, grinding teeth, acidic digestion, and a penchant for browsing down anything that's green, we've been told they will go a long ways towards solving the invasives and weed problem. Stay tuned. So might we someday see the railroads' M-O-W Depts. adding goats to the "equipment" roster and "Goat Herder" to the job description of the track foreman types ? They work for free food, no fringe benefits, no environmental concerns, etc.
A 60mph intermodal train could do some damage to a four stomach, teeth grinding acidic digestive weed remover.
MP173 A 60mph intermodal train could do some damage to a four stomach, teeth grinding acidic digestive weed remover. ed
Yes indeed..but the weed lives on...
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