Trackside Lounge, Milepost 0906.01--no defects

[AgentKid]

Deggesty

Now, when you come to town lots, the PLLS system is cumbersome, for town lots are usually quite small. So, there will often be a plat (yes, that’s the word, "plat" and not "plot"), which makes reference to the larger surveying system to show just where it is, drawn up to show all the lots in the town, with each lot identified, often by a number. These lots, even though they are particularly identified by a different system, are tied, legally, to the overall system that is used in the area.

I had a chance to think about this since my last post. I incorrectly used the term baseline in my last post. The prime meridian for the western Canadian system is the line running north/south east of the Manitoba/Ontario border. The baseline for our system is the Canada/US border (49 degrees N. Latitude)

But to continue on with what Johnny has said I will give a more complete example of how we use this system: LSD *, ** 1/4, Sec **, TWP ***, Range **, West of the * Meridian. The asterisks are LSD (1-9) (NW, NE, SW, SE) 1/4, SEC (1-36) TWP (1-126), Range (1-30) West of the (1-6) Meridian. As mentioned earlier the miles get smaller, as it were, the farther north you go. There are 30 Ranges at the 49th degree of latitude, but only 23 Ranges at the 60th degree of latitude, the north boundary of the 126th TWP and the border between the prairie provinces and the Northwest Territories.

So the length of an LSD on one side is 1/3 of 1/2 of a mile, or 880 feet, which is pretty precise for the middle of the Canadian prairie. City house lots like in Calgary are then numbered as part of an LSD (I forgot to explain, Legal Subdivision) So that is how 123 Main Street is tied into the overall survey system.

LSD's are the common way of locating wells in the petroleum business, but I'm not sure when the concept was developed. I never knew if it was part of the system set up in the ninetieth century or added later for the benefit of the oil business. But if that were the case, when did they become part of the city lot descriptions like my parents house has.

Thats all for now, and when it comes to the week I just had, as David Letterman says "If that isn't enough, it should be!"

AgentKid

 

[Deggesty]

CShaveRR

(For example, we block cars for Selkirk--I happen to know what Selkirk is, and where it is, and what traffic should be routed through it from here, but a lot of my co-workers don't have a clue to any of that, and some don't even know what "SELK" on the hump list stands for!)

Shucks, I'm not a railroader, and I know what "Selkirk" is. I know that this usage does not refer to a CP steam engine nor to a mountain range in Western Canada, but it does refer to the CSX (former NYC) yard at Albany, New York. Carl, could these co-workers of yours handle anything like a mule leg that is hanging out a car? Or does a loose or missing slat bring them to a standstill? I'm sure that they are good in what they are paid to do, else they would not still be working.

Johnny

[Deggesty]

tree68

I no longer live in Michigan, meaning my kids didn't do seventh grade there, so I don't know if they still teach "Michigan History & Government" like they did when I was in seventh grade.

If they don't (and if they don't teach stuff like this) one wonders if they realize that nearly 50 years later, we're discussing something like this, and know more or less from whence we speak...

I'm sure the argument would be that it's not stuff kids today need to know...

See my comment to CNW6000 below.

I wonder if state history is taught in public schools now. I had South Carolina history when I was in the sixth grade–and I do not remember much of the details. When I moved to Mississippi, I found two histories of Mississippi that had been used as texts in the public school, and I read them, wanting to know more about the state than I did. However, when I moved to Alabama, I did not find any schoolbook history, so I was unable to add to my knowledge.

Justin, have you studied the history of Indiana in school?

CNW6000 : "Hmph...there was actually a BOE member who suggested removing Civics/History classes from HS curriculum on grounds of 'waste'. For some odd reason...he wasn't re-elected, I wonder why."

He didn’t want the people who went through the school system to learn from errors made in the past but to repeat them? I’m glad that this person was removed from the board.

Mudchicken: "Then there's the lawyers that can't write a legal description (metes and bounds or otherwise... some of the latent and patent ambiguities are a mess, not to mention the math errors ) who now want the term changed to property descriptions."

Can they write anything, even in legalese, that can be understood? I have my doubts that the current "education" system makes any attempt to teach real communication in any way, whether oral or written.

Justin again: we have been talking about two systems of accurately describing large plots of land so that they can be legally defined and located. As you probably have seen, one system, "Metes and Bounds," starts by locating a particular well-known spot or item, and describes in what direction and how far you move to the next determining point, and so on, until you come back to the origin. The other system, "PLLS," starts from a point that has been determined by the basic geography of the earth, using a particular, named meridian (an imaginary {imaginary in that it is not marked on the land} line that runs from one pole to the other) and a particular, named base line (an imaginary line that is parallel to the equator) as the references for the land description. If you looked at the site that Larry posted for us, it may seem at first that the PLLS system is hard to follow, but it is, within its own limitations, superior to the Metes and Bounds for describing much of the land in our country.

Now, when you come to town lots, the PLLS system is cumbersome, for town lots are usually quite small. So, there will often be a plat (yes, that’s the word, "plat" and not "plot"), which makes reference to the larger surveying system to show just where it is, drawn up to show all the lots in the town, with each lot identified, often by a number. These lots, even though they are particularly identified by a different system, are tied, legally, to the overall system that is used in the area. Thus, you can be certain about the legal description of the property you own. I hope I haven’t confused any more than you were.

Johnny

[tree68]

CShaveRR

(For example, we block cars for Selkirk--I happen to know what Selkirk is, and where it is, and what traffic should be routed through it from here, but a lot of my co-workers don't have a clue to any of that, and some don't even know what "SELK" on the hump list stands for!)

I know what it means - If I'm in Syracuse or Utica I'm going to see it going by!

[CShaveRR]

I don't think that school geography courses will have any bearing on your day-to-day work as an engineer or conductor. You'll have to know your territory, but that refers to the signals, stations, mileposts, curves, and grades. A geography course would give you a little more information--which watershed is beyond the top of that grade, what the line might be curving to avoid, why the industry located here, rather than elsewhere on the line, and so on. A lot of the geography education is more useful to some people higher up in the pecking order than I am. (For example, we block cars for Selkirk--I happen to know what Selkirk is, and where it is, and what traffic should be routed through it from here, but a lot of my co-workers don't have a clue to any of that, and some don't even know what "SELK" on the hump list stands for!) It's also more interesting to railfans, because they would want to know about the railroads, past and present, that surround them, where they went, and why.

[bubbajustin]

Eveing all!

A really hot and humid day today. Dad says that it got up to 110*F in the plant today. We ended up bringing our dog in the house today, because of the heat. 90 something was the high today. 89* and very humid right now.

Carl, I was told that taking advanced Geography classes would help me as an engineer. I mean an engineer has to know his terratory right?! I also hope that those co-wokers will get called back to work as SOON  as possible. Looks like the recession has hit absolutly everyone. Don't mean to start an argument, but do you think that the economey, and the rail industry are showing sighns of going back up? On my stock monitor app. it looks like CSXT has had an ok day gaining 0.68 points. NS has stayed N/A, abd BNSF Railway has been thi big sucess story today at +1.31 points. Who knows what's next.

[CShaveRR]

Finally, some good news. A coworker of mine reports that there's a rumor of ten road men (he didn't say whether they were conductors or engineers) being recalled on the Illinois side. He has a son who's waiting for his recall--hopefully he's that much closer!

[CShaveRR]

Larry, I'm your age or thereabouts, but didn't have a course like you describe in seventh grade. It could have been that I went to a parochial school, but that wouldn't apply to Pat (also a Michigander), and she went to public schools.

There was a Michigan History course offered at our high school. I kind of regret not taking it (I was in the math-science track). The geography courses they offered in school were considered to be "rinky-dink", but I might have found those interesting, too, particularly in light of my subsequent life.

Justin, when you get to high school, don't be shy about taking geography and local history courses if you have room for them. A lot of railroading and railfanning could be more understandable with some of those courses under your belt!

[bubbajustin]

Morning all!

Seeings how you all are discussing things that I have absolutley no clue what you are talking about, I will not add anything in that respect... I will add....

It's just plain hot outside. WeatherBug says 77, but I bet it is all of 85* out there. Humidity is reallly bad. Water is pouring out of the back of window A/C. My dog Rex is really not taking this heat well. he is solid black may I add.

Everyone stay cool!

[CNW 6000]

tree68

I'm sure the argument would be that it's not stuff kids today need to know.....

Hmph...there was actually a BOE member who suggested removing Civics/History classes from HS curriculum on grounds of 'waste'.  For some odd reason...he wasn't re-elected, I wonder why. 

Metes & Bounds as well as Tribal Methodology was taught in one of my Geography classes in college.  I found the course fairly easy probably due to my previous exposures from Boy Scouts and my father.  My father was the Zoning Admin for the County for 18 years until he retired so I'd hear all kinds of fun discussions between he, his staff, and some applicant/owner or other if I'd stop in his office. 

[tree68]

Deggesty

Right on, Paul! I don't remember who explained the system to me, about forty-six years ago, but this description is what I remembered. I like your further comments about the relative values of the two systems.

Johnny

I no longer live in Michigan, meaning my kids didn't do seventh grade there, so I don't know if they still teach "Michigan History & Government" like they did when I was in seventh grade.

If they don't (and if they don't teach stuff like this) one wonders if they realize that nearly 50 years later, we're discussing something like this, and know more or less from whence we speak...

I'm sure the argument would be that it's not stuff kids today need to know.....

[Deggesty]

Paul_D_North_Jr

You're right - a good link and intro-level article, Larry.  Thanks for finding and sharing.  And - to keep this "On Topic" - if you then click on the "NEXT" arrow at either the top or bottom of that page, it takes you to a little article entitled "A Man and His Instrument" about a Canadian fellow - one O.J. Klotz - who did some railroad surveys in the late 1800's.  It also has photos of his transit that is apparently marked or inscribed as "Michigan Airline Railway" on the compass plate (see lower left phot of same).

Right on, Paul! I don't remember who explained the system to me, about forty-six years ago, but this description is what I remembered. I like your further comments about the relative values of the two systems.

Johnny

[mudchicken]

Then there's the lawyers that can't write a legal description (metes and bounds or otherwise... some of the latent and patent ambiguities are a mess, not to mention the math errors) who now want the term changed to property descriptions. Lc and gabe need to go get the BAR to do a little house cleanin'....(In this state, new legal prperty descriptions are supposed to be signed by the author of same...Surveyors do, most attorney's do not - especially the title company folks...any wonder why.?)

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

You're right - a good link and intro-level article, Larry.  Thanks for finding and sharing.  And - to keep this "On Topic" - if you then click on the "NEXT" arrow at either the top or bottom of that page, it takes you to a little article entitled "A Man and His Instrument" about a Canadian fellow - one O.J. Klotz - who did some railroad surveys in the late 1800's.  It also has photos of his transit that is apparently marked or inscribed as "Michigan Airline Railway" on the compass plate (see lower left phot of same).

One other aspect about "Metes & Bounds vs. Publc Lands" surveys is worth noting - they are both "tools", and like all tools each has applications where one is better than the other.  For example, the Public Lands system is simple to use and makes a lot of sense where the land is basically flat and not interrupted by mountain ranges or many streams and lakes, etc., such as the stereotypical images of the Midwstern farms. 

On the other hand, here in the NorthEast in places there is often nothing about the terrain that is straight or flat.  As a result, most boundaries that are established that way - of either states, counties, townships, or properties - usually result in some piece that is anomalous.  For example, something is isolated on the other side of a stream, split across a ridge or two watersheds, etc.  There are many instances where life would be easier had those boundaries followed a natural demarcation line of some sort, such as a ridge or divide or stream, etc.  Common and easy examples are sanitary sewer and storm drainage systems, where all-gravity flow is highly desirable.  But when a part of a political subdivsion or district is on the opposite side of a ridge or divide, then it either has to be pumped over, or some agreement reached with the neighboring community that's downstream to accept and handle the flow from the "orphaned" piece.  That could have been avoided if the boundary had been made at the ridge line.  And to do that, the "metes & bounds" system is far better suited to describing those many non-perpendicular changes in direction, including curves - such as from a highway or railroad  R-O-W alignment, natural monuments, and the like.  Plus, a full metes & bounds description includes not only the course (bearing or azimuth) and distance, but also references to the "monuments" at the ends of each line or curve and any along the way, as well a "calls" for the dove-tailing abutting/ adjoining property - 3 different ways of describing a parcel altogether, so it is doubly redundant (or is that "triply" redundant ?).  Oh, by the way - can you tell I'm from a metes & bounds state ?    On a more cynical note, that system helps keep a lot of surveyors and their staffs gainfully occupied - as much as any full-employment or stimulus bill !! 

Thanks again for the research and the link.  Amazing what turns up here !

- Paul North. 

[tree68]

I stumbled on this site which does an excellent job of explaining both surveying methods.  Good read for those with an interest in the subject.

[tree68]

I live within an area that was part of a treaty between NY and the Six Nations back in the late 1700's.  The catch is that this particular plat was not turned over to NY in said treaty - it was turned over to an individual because of his "friendship" with the native Americans in question.  He chose it because it would control a significant (at the time) land crossing (way too long to be considered a portage).

He then up and disappeared, leaving land ownership rather up in the air for a number of years.  Things were finally squared up and a major landowner established a clear deed.

[mudchicken]

Indian claims are always an adventure, usually with a different set of rules for the indian nation, treaties and Surveyor General's instructions...welcome to my world.

[CShaveRR]

Thanks, MC! I'm not sure that Michigan's "guides" are as frequent as every eighth town/range, though.

Here around Chicago, we have a couple of "Indian Boundary Lines" that wreak havoc on the street numbering system, particularly south of town. Township lines appear to have been established regardless of these, yet the street discrepancies remain.

[mudchicken]

Carl:

You be referring to the Michigan Principal Meridian of 1815 (Thanks to Thomas Jefferson and the General Land Office's Public Lands Survey System....."Guide Meridians", Standard parallels, township lines, range lines and the related brain damage I get to play with ...and follow in the footsteps of that original surveyor)...Most (not all) PLSS Systems use every 8th township/rangeline east and west as a new guide meridian off the principal meridian....Standard parallels do the same with every 8th township line going north-south from the baseline.

That's what you get for imposing a flat surface on a spherical solid!.....If you live in the "firelands" in Northern Ohio (SE of JoeKoh), just give up - none of this will make much sense.

You live in the 3rd Principal Meridian (1805) in Illinois

Mooks & I live in the 6th Principal Meridian...

Tree lives over in Metes and Bounds" land ....no guide meridians there.

The PLSS System started in SE Ohio and headed west in 1785 with the Seven Ranges (Ohio purchase)...Cincinnati is the mix of two PLSS zones and a Metes and Bounds Zone known as the Virginia Military District that GW's heirs had a hand in settling.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/cadastralsurvey/meridians.html

 

 

[CShaveRR]

Well, it used to be tough, but in case the new air conditioner can't handle it, the old one is still available as well. We just make sure there's plenty of drinking water around. I'm not bike-commuting as often as I used to, so that shouldn't be a problem, either. Our highs, by the way, are supposed to be "middle 80s" for Friday, and about 88 for next Tuesday. Rain is in our forecast to some degree (sorry!) for every day out of the next seven, save for Sunday and Monday.

bubbajustin

Hot and sticky!!! 85*for a high Friday supposed to be 91* and very high humidity. Carl I bet it is really tough for you on day's like that.

[bubbajustin]

Morning all!

Larry, that looks like some storm. I hope no one was hurt! We are supposed to have pop up showers if anything today. I went out to the garage to take out the recycleables and I said... Maby I'll wait for dad to get home before I go up to the post office. Hot and sticky!!! 85*for a high Friday supposed to be 91* and very high humidity. Carl I bet it is really tough for you on day's like that.

Have a good day all!

PS go and read hotel reviews some times. I think it is better than LArry the Cable Gus SOMETIMES. GET-R-DONE!!!

[tree68]

Noah - nice shots! 

Willy will appreciate this picture:

There were no warnings on the cell, the radar didn't indicate rotation, and I couldn't discern any in the time that I was watching it.  Looked pretty ominous, though.

I was out doing business with an official vehicle, so I didn't have my Rebel with me.  Had to settle for the cell phone...

Edit:  I just talked with the local weather folks, who also saw the same thing.  They said there was indeed rotation, and that they could see it in the center.

[bubbajustin]

congrats Noah, and I wish you much sucess. Well, Just got done talking to Noriss, and I guess that good for nothing dirt scum bag is gone for now.

A really humid and warm evening here. 72* at the moment with a really high humidity factor. I have my bedside stand fan on high on me as I type this post.

I'm glad to report that mom's stiches are dissolving, and she is well on the way to recovery. Also......... Drumroll...........

T- minus 3 weeks 4 days ad howevermany hours and seconds left till Amtrak vacation!!!!

[CNW 6000]

I'll join the chorus Noah, congrats.  Engineering is a very vital field and from what I hear (I know a couple) you can get some pretty lucrative offers if you do well in school.  A friend of mine, Ben, will be transferring down to UWP in a year or so for that very program.  An avid MR enthusiast and photographer of railroads I think you two would probably get along pretty well.

[blhanel]

Noah Hofrichter

I'm headed to college in the fall. I'll be attending the University of Wisconsin - Platteville, and I intend to major in civil engineering. I'm thinking about a transportation or municipal emphasis, as I'd like to work in a transportation related field, whether that be roads, airports, mass transit or possibly railroads if it were to work out.

In fact I was just down registering for classes yesterday. I'm really looking forward to starting the whole college experience. Plus, as an aside, being in Platteville I won't be that far from the Mississippi River and the railroads that run along it for some convenient picture taking opportunities, if I ever get some free time on a weekend.

on both counts.  Maybe we'll run into each other in East Dubuque.

[Noah Hofrichter]

Thanks guys! Glad you enjoy the pictures.

Johnny, I always wish I had a chance to see the MX when it still had a tower. But at least there are plenty of pictures to look at.

Good to hear the CNW units are actually being used again too. Like Dan I'd heard they'd been taken out of storage at IRM, but I wasn't sure if they were actually being used or if they were just in storage at a different place.

Thanks for the congratulations as well. I'm headed to college in the fall. I'll be attending the University of Wisconsin - Platteville, and I intend to major in civil engineering. I'm thinking about a transportation or municipal emphasis, as I'd like to work in a transportation related field, whether that be roads, airports, mass transit or possibly railroads if it were to work out.

In fact I was just down registering for classes yesterday. I'm really looking forward to starting the whole college experience. Plus, as an aside, being in Platteville I won't be that far from the Mississippi River and the railroads that run along it for some convenient picture taking opportunities, if I ever get some free time on a weekend.

Noah

[Modelcar]

.......Noah:  Beautiful photos...!

[Deggesty]

Noah, I like the pictures, especially those on the lake. In April, 1971, I went up to Madison from Chicago and back on the MILW. I knew of the crossing, and I spoke to the flagman about it when we were leaving Madison. He took me to the rear, and I got a brief look at it; I do not remember if I got a picture of it.

Have you plans for further education, or are you joining the workforce?

Johnny

[CNW 6000]

CShaveRR

Pat and I were out on our bikes again this morning (before the rain hits), and guess what we encountered: CNW 8646 and 8701 at the head of the West Chicago local! Those units had reportedly been destined for storage after their display at the C&NWHS convention in Des Moines/Boone, but they've been back "home" for at least the past week. The number of locomotives stored on UP has gone down slightly since last week.

It's good that UP is using them again.  I heard that they got their paint touched up at IRM while there and that they are supposed to be on static display at Diesel Days.  Our plan is still to make that event.  I think we're going on Sunday.

Saw an all GEVO train on the CN yesterday.  How nice to hear all 3 of 'em chugging away and working hard!

[CShaveRR]

Pat and I were out on our bikes again this morning (before the rain hits), and guess what we encountered: CNW 8646 and 8701 at the head of the West Chicago local! Those units had reportedly been destined for storage after their display at the C&NWHS convention in Des Moines/Boone, but they've been back "home" for at least the past week. The number of locomotives stored on UP has gone down slightly since last week.