Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I know I don't post too often around here, but I do read the posts regularly, and I tend to learn quite a bit. Most of the time it's simply that I don't have a lot to add to the conversation. But today I actually have some pictures to share again.
Apparently last Saturday was my lucky day. My dad and I had to go to Stoughton, Wisconsin (south of Madison) for my cousin's graduation party (I graduated from high school a few weeks ago too.) As we were headed along the beltline on the south side of Madison towards Stoughton, we rolled over the Wisconsin and Southern railroad tracks and I looked to the south as I've often done without seeing much of anything. Normally the trains in each direction on this line between Madison and Janesville, WI run in the early morning or late at night. However, this time much to my surprise I saw a moving train! It appeared two of the WSOR's fairly new MP15s had a decent size MAJ (Madison-Janesville) type train in tow, and they were moving. It looked like a stop in McFarland, between Madison and Stoughton, was in order!
Deggesty Carl: What's really fascinating to me is that not all miles are created equal--they have to compensate for the narrowing of the meridians as one gets closer to the poles. In Michigan, I remember, there are three or four places where mileage is adjusted--the further you get from the Prime Meridian (Larry, you'd be east of it; I'll stay west of it), the more marked the changes became. So those straight north-and-south roads would take quite a jog when they'd come to these points. Carl, don't you mean as you get farther from the baseline? I always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, EnglandĀ (0o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent? I had never thought of the jogs in section-line roads asĀ being caused by changes in latitude, but, as you say, this is necessary if you use the same baseline as you go north any great distance. Johnny
Carl: What's really fascinating to me is that not all miles are created equal--they have to compensate for the narrowing of the meridians as one gets closer to the poles. In Michigan, I remember, there are three or four places where mileage is adjusted--the further you get from the Prime Meridian (Larry, you'd be east of it; I'll stay west of it), the more marked the changes became. So those straight north-and-south roads would take quite a jog when they'd come to these points.
Carl, don't you mean as you get farther from the baseline?
I always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, EnglandĀ (0o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent?
I had never thought of the jogs in section-line roads asĀ being caused by changes in latitude, but, as you say, this is necessary if you use the same baseline as you go north any great distance.
Johnny
Murphy SidingOh- if only the trolls were as nice as the folks here!
If only they could meet some of us face to face. So far, Ricki and I have the pleasure of meeting and eating with only Carl and Pat (and he still said nice things about me!) I feel that I could sit down and spend pleasant time with the regulars on the Trackside Lounge and the Cafe, and other threads that I read and post on. Whatever your age and your actual experience with railroading, I have enjoyed sharing in your knowledge, and I hope you have appreciated my contributions.
As I have said on another thread, I regret that I did not begin taking part before last summer. But, what wasn't done, wasn't done, and cannot be done now.
One more comment about this coward: he must have a miserable, hate-filled existence.
CShaveRRJust saw that Norris ("Murphy Siding") has been made a moderator. Of course, that means that he'll be turned away at the Lounge door from now on. Just kidding, of course! Congratulations, Murph! You certainly were there when needed this weekend!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
DeggestyI always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, England (0o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent?
Ah, but that's the Prime Meridian. Not to be confused with the sub-prime meridian, or Meridian, Mississippi (which I'm sure the local residents feel is prime...).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
GUY'S, I STRONGLY URGE YOU ALL TO LOOK, AND POST TO MY RECENT THREAD CALLED "THANK THE MODS." GRANDPAW PETTIBONE WANTS US ALL TO HIT THE REPORT ABUSE BUTTON FOR THE GUY BY THE NAME OF PHUNK YOU, GOOD MORNING LOOSERS, AND MANY OTHER NAMES. PLEASE VISIT THE POST THANKS TO THE MODS.
THANKS
YOU KNOW WHO.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
tree68Where I live in NY (and most of NY for that matter) the townships appear almost haphazard. Every now and then you'll see some semblance of order, but not often
Yes, see what you end up with when you let people come in any old way and settle, and how much more orderly it is if you lay the land out before you let people settle on it.
I'll respond to several friends in one post:
This system can be a bit difficult to interpret when you first read it, especially if the plot is really small. But, it is accurate, more so than the one Paul mentions. Of course, when you have irregular boundaries, you can have difficulty in describing it correctly. And, really small lots (even as great as five acres) need more exacting descriptions.
I always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, England (0o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent?
I had never thought of the jogs in section-line roads as being caused by changes in latitude, but, as you say, this is necessary if you use the same baseline as you go north any great distance.
Paul: But those of us in non-PLSS states - such as here in Pennsylvania - think that's awful boring, compared to our legal descriptions that include such things as "an old oak tree", "the post in John's garden", "a stone in the road", "the fish under the rock in the stream at the bottom of the hill", and so on. Where's the fun in that ?
Oh ye of literal minds . . .
Ah, yes, as though the oak tree would be there forever, or John would never have to move his post, etc.
And, AgentKid: But what I really wanted to say is that is how my Father's Birth Certificate read. His original Birth Certificate was lost in a fire and when he needed a new one to renew his Driver's License once, he got one with a land description because in the intervening years the town he had been born in became unincorporated and everything taken away. This created difficulty when he had to get a passport because they want a name, not a land tittle description. So the Government put the original town name back on it and he ended up in a situation where his Passport and Birth Certificate didn't match. He passed way in 1992, years before world travel got complicated.
Wow! International travel was much simpler, even seventeen years ago. Of course, up through our trip this year, we needed only birth certificates and/or driver's licenses to go into and out of Canada (always by train). We do have passports now.
Paul - Wish I could get hold of the deed from where I last lived in MI - according to the Google Earth display, the property straddled two sections (never mind not having a true N-S or E-W border). I did get lucky, though, and was only one section off. Even though I didn't recall what section(s) we were in, I still remember the range (2N, 7E).
Where I live in NY (and most of NY for that matter) the townships appear almost haphazard. Every now and then you'll see some semblance of order, but not often.
Paul_D_North_Jrthe property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".
Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba also use this system. The baseline is near the Ontario/Manitoba border. We end the description with west of so and so meridian. Calgary is in an odd situation because Barlow Trail between Memorial Drive and McKnight Boulevard is right on the Fifth Meridian. So Calgary lot descriptions can either be "West of the Fourth", or "West of the Fifth".
But what I really wanted to say is that is how my Father's Birth Certificate read. His original Birth Certificate was lost in a fire and when he needed a new one to renew his Driver's License once, he got one with a land description because in the intervening years the town he had been born in became unincorporated and everything taken away. This created difficulty when he had to get a passport because they want a name, not a land tittle description. So the Government put the original town name back on it and he ended up in a situation where his Passport and Birth Certificate didn't match. He passed way in 1992, years before world travel got complicated.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
tree68 Deggesty Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian? As suggested in Carl's post, I'm pretty sure each state has their own. In Michigan, the baseline is Eight Mile Road in the Detroit area. All of the counties west across the state have that line as a county line. Find the border between Wayne and Macomb Counties (or Wayne and Oakland) and follow it west. The meridian is just east of Lansing and runs straight through the middle of Ingham County. The county lines between Hillsdale and Lenawee Counties, Clinton and Shiawassee Counties, and Gratiot and Saginaw Counties are all on the meridian. Each township was also divided into sections - a square mile (640 acres). Many property descriptions will have verbiage to the effect that the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east". While looking for examples, I found descriptions along that line as far west as Iowa. That's today's civics lesson....
Deggesty Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian?
Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian?
As suggested in Carl's post, I'm pretty sure each state has their own.
In Michigan, the baseline is Eight Mile Road in the Detroit area. All of the counties west across the state have that line as a county line. Find the border between Wayne and Macomb Counties (or Wayne and Oakland) and follow it west.
The meridian is just east of Lansing and runs straight through the middle of Ingham County. The county lines between Hillsdale and Lenawee Counties, Clinton and Shiawassee Counties, and Gratiot and Saginaw Counties are all on the meridian.
Each township was also divided into sections - a square mile (640 acres). Many property descriptions will have verbiage to the effect that the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".
While looking for examples, I found descriptions along that line as far west as Iowa.
That's today's civics lesson....
Yes - each state's Meridian (in the North-South direction) and Baseline (East - West direction) is generally separate and independent from those of other states - although Michigan's is shared with Ohio's. See:
http://www.earthpoint.us/Townships.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Land_Survey_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Meridian
Usual disclaimers apply on the Wikipedia articles.
There are several on-line references and even "calculators" to graphically show where a certain description of land is in this system. For example:
http://leehouse.tripod.com/twpCalc2.htm
For more info on this, search for "township & range" and "Michigan", or similar.
But those of us in non-PLSS states - such as here in Pennsylvania - think that's awful boring, compared to our legal descriptions that include such things as "an old oak tree", "the post in John's garden", "a stone in the road", "the fish under the rock in the stream at the bottom of the hill", and so on. Where's the fun in that ?
- Paul North.
Thought I would join you nice folks over here in the lounge
CShaveRRwhen I refer to mowing the North Forty
From the time we moved to Calgary my Train Dispatching father said he had to "run the plow" every time he had to shovel the snow off of our sidewalks. And it was always funny in the spring when both of my parents, who come from rural backgrounds and live in a house with a fifty two foot lot, would talk about getting out on the land.
And it is nice to hear we are getting a new moderator, this past weekend certainly had its' annoying moments.
Almost anyone in this Indiana area will refer to it as the "Midwest"...
Quentin
tree68 I grew up believing that Michigan was considered part of the midwest. Out of deference to Madam La Mook, I'll refer to it as the eastern midwest. As it stands, US23 will probably be close to the limit - venturing a little further west to hit Owosso (chief reason for the trip) and Deshler (for a day or three of camping at a certain diamond), plus some friends in the old stomping grounds. There's a reunion for the class following ours in August, but that's to far from the big event in Owosso, so I'll be skipping it. That's unfortunate, 'cause I knew a lot of those kids pretty well. And I do remember from my Michigan History and Government that Michigan was part of the "Northwest Territory." In fact, I'm pretty sure that all of the states that made up said territory had their townships laid out exactly the same way - 6 miles square, and referred to based on a baseline and a meridian. My old hometown was township 2 north, range 7 east, IIRC. That shows up in deeds all the time.
I grew up believing that Michigan was considered part of the midwest. Out of deference to Madam La Mook, I'll refer to it as the eastern midwest.
As it stands, US23 will probably be close to the limit - venturing a little further west to hit Owosso (chief reason for the trip) and Deshler (for a day or three of camping at a certain diamond), plus some friends in the old stomping grounds. There's a reunion for the class following ours in August, but that's to far from the big event in Owosso, so I'll be skipping it. That's unfortunate, 'cause I knew a lot of those kids pretty well.
And I do remember from my Michigan History and Government that Michigan was part of the "Northwest Territory." In fact, I'm pretty sure that all of the states that made up said territory had their townships laid out exactly the same way - 6 miles square, and referred to based on a baseline and a meridian. My old hometown was township 2 north, range 7 east, IIRC. That shows up in deeds all the time.
Other states that were settled after the USA came into being used the township system to locate property, always referring to the baseline and the meridian. Back in the sixties, I did a bit of research in Mississippi, and discovered IIRC that the sections were numbered west to east (1-6) for the northern-most six, then east to west (7-12) for the row, and then alternated the direction for each succeeding row. Of course, watercourses and topography brought some irregularity into the system. Or, was it townships that were numbered in this alternating fashion?
And, if you have an exactly square acre (43560 square feet), it is 208.710325571113 (to 12 places) feet on each side. It's no wonder that a land description would read "so many acres, more or less." I had to work this out slowly as I could not find a square root function on my spreadsheet. Of course, we get into the matter of sig figs here. Two decimal places is probably sufficient.
I believe that Lousiana had its own system (parishes and no counties, as well as a different legal system that was based on the Napolonic Code, etc.)
Matt's quite the young man - I think he knows the trains at Deshler better than many of the adults! With any luck I'll see them again this summer - assuming I can include Deshler in my trip to the eastern midwest.
Happy Birthday, Matt! I'll save some fries!
Yes Carl, I almost forgot, to Matt! I'll shoot Joe an E-mail, and tell him.
A Really quite hot Indiana summer day here. humid and a cloudless 80*. Oh well, humidaty isn't too bad at the moment and there is a nice cool breeze blowing throught the garage into the house. It is really relaxing.
Thanks Carl. I will look into that. Mom say's we normally do call "Julie" when we get to the station. We will tell the conductor we have to catch the CZ. I never thought that. I assume that if the train is running 5 hour's late the CZ will not be held up just for us.
I'm doing much better now Carl. Thanks for asking. I was chilling quite badly in fact. I had 2 thick blanket's and a heting pad on high on me. I feel much better now. I'm just typing in these letter's because I was tinkering around and found out how to change font types and color. I already know how to bold.
Have a good day, and weekend everyone!
Wow! This place is nice! I hope you guy's don't mind me stopping in now, and then.
I haven't been doing all that well. Last night I had horrid chills, and was running a temp of 102.9*. Doc. says I'll make it.
Well, on the way home from the doctor dad took me the back way and we met a NS unit grain train.
Here NS D9-40CW, and NS SD70M (Ican't make out the # when typing this) come hauling past just outside of Attica.
Anyone here heading to the Illinois Rail Museum for Diesel Days 2009? I think (knock on wood) I talked Misty into going and taking Aedan (of course, that depends on when he arrives) and she sounded enthusiastic about going! I'm guessing about 2 and a half weeks to go now...better go check the signal board.
Dan
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