My Locomotive has a flat!

[jeffhergert]

Here's a couple of pictures showing wheel problems.

http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?a=13868&q=316734

http://www.interfacejournal.com/features/08-05/wheel_shelling/1.html

I tried putting these in yesterday, but had trouble (bad typing) on getting them to work.  I ran out of time, so here they are.  They both seem to be working now.

Jeff

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zugmann

[snip] . . . Then the company can ignore it at will. :P . . . [snip] 

    I just know I'm gonna find a way to use that one sometime soon, don'tcha know !  - PDN.

[henry6]

In trouble only if one caused flat spot by inappropriate operation or control of the locomotive or train.  An emergency application in the name of safety would not be punishable but over applying brakes, or braking too harshly because of excessive speed, or innatention to duties, then, yes, one would be in trouble.

[wabash1]

Murphy Siding

zugmann

Murphy Siding

  What's the general procedure, when someone puts flat spots on the wheels of a locomotive?  Is it something you're supposed to report to somebody?

If it's minor - then you can report it as a defect on the computer locomotive inspection screen. Then the company can ignore it at will. :P If it's major, then if you're at a yard you tell whomever is in charge you need new power, or get their name if they order you out with it. If you're line of road and re-crew a train and the inbound apparently left you with some big honking flat spots, then you let the disp. know, and then the MOC center - or vice versa - and let them make the decisions. (the MOC center is the locomotive help desk for NS)

 

    When this defect is reported,  does someone get in trouble?

The answer is how much trouble, If you report it they will look into how it happened, if its a newer engine  they will pull tapes and see who was the hot dog  and just not 1 engine if you have several they will pull the tapes on each one. Now if only 1 engine is showing abuse then they go lighter on the punishment but iff all engines show abuse you will be punished, unless your operating a remote controll unit there is no rules and anything goes for these operators. But that is another topic.

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

Murphy Siding

  What's the general procedure, when someone puts flat spots on the wheels of a locomotive?  Is it something you're supposed to report to somebody?

If it's minor - then you can report it as a defect on the computer locomotive inspection screen. Then the company can ignore it at will. :P If it's major, then if you're at a yard you tell whomever is in charge you need new power, or get their name if they order you out with it. If you're line of road and re-crew a train and the inbound apparently left you with some big honking flat spots, then you let the disp. know, and then the MOC center - or vice versa - and let them make the decisions. (the MOC center is the locomotive help desk for NS)

 

    When this defect is reported,  does someone get in trouble?

[zugmann]

Murphy Siding

  What's the general procedure, when someone puts flat spots on the wheels of a locomotive?  Is it something you're supposed to report to somebody?

If it's minor - then you can report it as a defect on the computer locomotive inspection screen. Then the company can ignore it at will. :P If it's major, then if you're at a yard you tell whomever is in charge you need new power, or get their name if they order you out with it. If you're line of road and re-crew a train and the inbound apparently left you with some big honking flat spots, then you let the disp. know, and then the MOC center - or vice versa - and let them make the decisions. (the MOC center is the locomotive help desk for NS)

[cordon]

 

Convicted One

Mookie

 

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

 

I'm sure they do, but this is more likely: http://csx-sucks.com/pictures/?burnim.jpg

 

 

How long do the wheels have to spin to create that much damage to the rails?

  

[Murphy Siding]

wabash1

zugmann

wabash1

1) yes they get flat wheels but its not the way most on here are stating, on most road engines the flat wheels are mostly caused by wet rail and no sand meaning that when you have the dynamic on and everything is going fine then the wheel slides because of the loss of traction the sand would have helped this from happening but if there is no sand the wheel will slide til the engine drops the load. it will load back up and most generally when it slides again it will be on the new flat spot making it bigger. You can hear these with no problem and if they are real bad they can be felt.

2) flat spots are flat spots they are about the same but made differantly

3) defect detector will not pick it up but if wheel is bad enough it will brake the rail.

4) dispatcher is to be notified and also the shops ( closest to you or tone up moc)

We have a certain remote job that attaches their robot engine to the inbound road power and uses that to switch with. Always gives the road engines flat spots. (full throttle or full independent is how they operate). We now have special detectors (solid state impact detectors - SSID) that detect and will sound an alarm if a car or engine has excessive flat spots. THe SSID around here is located before you get on Amtrak, so a bad car won't wreck amtrak's rail.

Yes ive seen the same thing happen and by far i didnt want my statement to mean that it could not happen any other way, but most road engines do get flat spots the way i stated  and then there is the guys who think i wont be on that engine or it aint mine why do i care, that is evident by looking at the windshields in these engines from the feet on the walls and scratching the windows with their shoes making it hard for anyone else to see out the darn things.

  What's the general procedure, when someone puts flat spots on the wheels of a locomotive?  Is it something you're supposed to report to somebody?

[rrboomer]

Paul,

I know, it sounds counter-intuitive that a wheel load impact detector doesn't find flat spot impacts.

What I said was based on several years worth of stops with the CP's WILD detector between Hastings and Red Wing.

Paul_D_North_Jr

rrboomer - Can you elaborate / provide more details ?

At least 1 manufacturer seems to claim that the WILD will detect flat spots, as well as the out-of-round wheels that you mention.  See:

http://www.salientsystems.com/prod_wild.html , which says (in part):

"Wheel defects with spalling, shelling, slid flat, or out-of-round characteristics impart excessive impact loads. Caught early, they can be trued. Undetected, these wheels can damage thousands of miles of track or cause derailments. Proactive railroads use networks of WILDs to control broken wheels, burnt-off journals, hot boxes, and brake rigging damage by removing high impact wheels, reducing derailments as a result." [emphasis added - PDN.]

Thanks for any insight you can provide !

- Paul North.

rrboomer

A  "Wild" detector will seldom catch a flat spot. It is used to catch out of round wheels, but not 3" flat spot cars. 

 Yes, a locomotive can get out of round wheels.

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

For more on why the Track Occupancy Lights are correlated with wheel defects and broken rails - and some of the other events that can cause a TOL to come on - see the Transportation Safety Board of Canada's "RAILWAY INVESTIGATION REPORT - R04T0008" on the 14 January 2004 Main-Track Derailment of Canadian Pacific Railway Train No. 239-13 (a container train) at Mile 178.20, Belleville Subdivision, Whitby, Ontario (about 25 miles NE of Toronto), at:

http://www.bst.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2004/r04t0008/r04t0008.pdf 

 As you'll see, the whole chain is events is quite chilling - both literally and figuratively.  You have to sympathize with the conductor of Crew 1 (of 3) of the ill-fated train 239 - he spent about 50 minutes (from 0205 AM to 0253 AM) out at the middle of the night in -30 degrees C (-22 deg. F) cold and wind - "cloudy and with blowing snow" - walking his train a couple of times - see Report pages 1 and 2 (Pages 9 and 10 of 69 of the "PDF" file) for the details.

The particulars for TOLs are in section 1.12 - Unidentified Track Occupancies ("UTO"), Report pages 19 - 23 (PDF Pages 27 through 31 of 69); see also section 1.3 - Damage to Track Infrastructure and "Table 1. - Rail Damage on the Belleville Subdivision Following the Passage of CPR Train 239" on Report page 6 (Page 14 of 69) - in 50 miles, 7 broken rails and 9 rail fractures ! 

Appendix A (below) also contains a detailed list of possible causes of TOLs/ UTOs.

 Also, section 2.5 - Actions Following the Unidentified Track Occupancy at Lovekin, 2.5.1 - Actions of the Rail Traffic Controller, Report pages 36 and 37 (PDF Pages 44 and 45 of 69); section 2.7 - Rail Traffic Control Procedure for Responding to Unidentified Track Occupancies, Report page 39 (PDF Page 47 of 69);

For changes that were put into place as a result of this, see also Appendix A . - Upgrades to Canadian Pacific Railway's Centralized Traffic Control System for Detection of Unidentified Track Occupancies at Report pages 51 through 53 (PDF Pages 59 through 61 of 69).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zug, thanks again for mentioning the TOL effects of this and heading us in this direction - I never would have thought of it or found it otherwise.  That's why the contributions from the real railroaders enhance this Forum so much.

- Paul North.

[espeefoamer]

Back around 1972-3, a friend and I were watching trains on the SP main east of L.A. We spotted a train in the distance,and we could hear the bang bang of flat wheels before we could hear the locomotives.The train was crewling at less than 5 MPH.The train must have gone into emergency at a fairly high rate of speed because every wheel on the train was flat.These were large flat spots,too.I never heard the cause,but would have loved to read the report on that one!

[Mookie]

Randy Stahl

The dilemma is a slid flat wheel resulting from a locked axle. We send guys out to cut a pinion but what to do about the big flat spots and the tread buildup ?

For one thing we can take a hand grinder and knock off the buildup and feather the flat spots . put a speed restriction on it or run it light engine at a slow speed till it gets home.... Or we can hire a crane for thousands of dollars an hour and change the wheelset on the spot . I prefer the 1st option.

Randy - the 2nd option was the one Mudchicken told me about.  Gave me heartburn on the spot!  And the charges start at the ranch, not when they get there! 

[Randy Stahl]

The dilemma is a slid flat wheel resulting from a locked axle. We send guys out to cut a pinion but what to do about the big flat spots and the tread buildup ?

For one thing we can take a hand grinder and knock off the buildup and feather the flat spots . put a speed restriction on it or run it light engine at a slow speed till it gets home.... Or we can hire a crane for thousands of dollars an hour and change the wheelset on the spot . I prefer the 1st option.

[zugmann]

I think the disp said we left behind 2 TOLs. We had loaded coal trains, so we (engineer and I) were wondering if maybe the mines overloaded the cars. Then that would just put that much more stress on the rail, esp if the rail was a little rough to begin with. The problem with leaving behind TOLs is that you won't be able to get the signals to display anything better than restricting. First train I had was probably two summers ago, and the next one was maybe a few months later? i think the first one was in darkness, the second one in the afternoon.

Paul_D_North_Jr

zug -

OK, we're cool.  Thanks also for your relating of the Track Occupancy Light rule and your experiences with its effects, and also for answering Mookie's follow-up questions because I wasn't understanding that either.  Now that I do - any idea of why the TOLs stayed on - 4 of them, altogether, if I understand rightly - then ?  Because the open switch and banner causes don't seem likely in that circumstance - you'd have already seen or noticed them, probably.  Also, how long was it between those 2 trains for you ? 

Thanks also for the wide-load detector story - very typical of such things, almost follows a script.

- Paul North.

[Mookie]

Paul:  Re Carl's statement.....I have known him a few years and that one even took me awhile to put together.  I think it was a test.....

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

rrboomer - Can you elaborate / provide more details ?

At least 1 manufacturer seems to claim that the WILD will detect flat spots, as well as the out-of-round wheels that you mention.  See:

http://www.salientsystems.com/prod_wild.html , which says (in part):

"Wheel defects with spalling, shelling, slid flat, or out-of-round characteristics impart excessive impact loads. Caught early, they can be trued. Undetected, these wheels can damage thousands of miles of track or cause derailments. Proactive railroads use networks of WILDs to control broken wheels, burnt-off journals, hot boxes, and brake rigging damage by removing high impact wheels, reducing derailments as a result." [emphasis added - PDN.]

Thanks for any insight you can provide !

- Paul North.

rrboomer

A  "Wild" detector will seldom catch a flat spot. It is used to catch out of round wheels, but not 3" flat spot cars. 

 Yes, a locomotive can get out of round wheels.

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

CShaveRR

12. (Or is it 13?) Why isn't this being discussed in the cafe?

    OK, I hate to admit it, but - it took me until just a few minutes ago until I got this one.    I knew exactly which thread you meant - but I couldn't see why you would think that would be a better place to discuss it, even though several of the participants post there pretty often.  It seems I just forgot or overlooked the first few words of its title or reference . . . . Good one, Carl !

- PDN.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

jeffhergert

[snip]

My own, unscientific, unsactioned rule of thumb is if you can hear the flat spot (on cars during a roll-by) about 5 or 6 cars before or after, it should be looked at.  Most flat spots seem to fade away after 2 or 3 cars. 

Late last year a crew got into trouble for not notifying a train that it had flat spots that had caused some broken rails.  For a while after that, many trains were having to stop to inspect when crews were reporting flat spots heard during roll-bys.  This was being done not to stick the railroad for what it had done to one crew but for self-preservation.  How does one know if the flat spot you hear, and they're heard a lot, is OK or not when it's passing you at 40 or 50 mph?  Better to report it than to get a little unpaid "vacation" if something happens down the road.  

I devised my own rule of thumb when I was inspecting for a reported flat spot.  The engineer was pulling the train past me and I wondered how I was going to tell the difference between the many flat spots.  When I heard it, there was no question that there was a problem.  Since then I've used the 5 or 6 car rule, but don't claim it's 100% reliable.

Jeff       

Jeff -   Thanks much for the real-world insight - it's exactly what I was looking for.  Also for the broken rail story - I didn't think that run-of-the-mill flat spots could be that damaging to modern rails - but maybe it/ (they) was more than just "normal" flat spots.  The history of how that played out in the dynamics of "Do we report it or not ?" is also informative - and typical, in my experience.  So this is definitely still a "live issue" day-to-day out on the railroad - a good reason for this thread. 

Thanks again !

- Paul North.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zug -

OK, we're cool.  Thanks also for your relating of the Track Occupancy Light rule and your experiences with its effects, and also for answering Mookie's follow-up questions because I wasn't understanding that either.  Now that I do - any idea of why the TOLs stayed on - 4 of them, altogether, if I understand rightly - then ?  Because the open switch and banner causes don't seem likely in that circumstance - you'd have already seen or noticed them, probably.  Also, how long was it between those 2 trains for you ? 

Thanks also for the wide-load detector story - very typical of such things, almost follows a script.

- Paul North.

[tree68]

My first year on the railroad the engineer put us into emergency when a pickup pulled onto a crossing ahead of us.  The truck moved before we got there, so we didn't hit him (he said he didn't hear the horn).

Before we continued on, the conductor did a roll-by to check for flat spots, since he was certain he'd felt at least one car slide.

[zugmann]

The TOLs will show up on the dispatcher's screen.  Even though there is no train on that block of track, it will show as being "occupied".  Could be because of a switch left open, something shunting the track (banner), or a broken rail left by a train (flat spot, broken wheel).  Because you have a TOL, any trains will have either a restricting signal or a stop signal (depending on location).

 And by location, I meant a milepost where we were told to stop.  There is no way you a dispather can tell you where to begin loking for a flat spot or broken wheel.  A broken wheel can be noticable, a flat spot?  Not as much.  Esp if the train is parked on top of it. 

[Mookie]

I was going to ask a question, but it got so convoluted, I need to back up.  I can understand TOLs.  But don't know where the sensors for this information are located....(need to get my basics down first!)

When you go past/over this sensor evidently a flat wheet will set it off.  Will anything else set it off? 

You are stopped in the dark and looking for a flat wheel.  This sounds like an impossible job to me, but to keep it simple, someone told you an approximate location.  So you use a lantern and look for the flat spot?  Having never seen one before, I can only imagine they must be very noticeable? 

[zugmann]

My apologies, Mr. North, I guess it was too early in the afternoon when I read the post.  No worries though - it's all good.  

 Back to the flat spot issue - there is another way to detect them (in cars, not locomotives).  Per our rulebook, if you leave two TOL's (track occupancy lights) within something like 30 miles, the dispatcher will tell you to stop your train and walk it.  Been there (twice), got the T-shirt.  Same exact location as well on both trains, and they were both coal trains. (hmmmm)  Of course looking for flat spots in the middle of central-PA darkness with a lousy lantern is a futile exercise at best.  Easy to tell one when moving (THUMP THUMP THUMP) but stopped?  Ehhh.... not so easy.

STraying even further off topic:  in addition to the SSID that protects Amtrak tracks, there's also a wide-car detector.  The thing was so sensitive at first it was tagging every train that went by it.  Something as subtle as a tarp on a loaded lumber car was enough to trigger it.  Or if an old gondola had a side bulged out.  I haven't heard too much about it lately, so maybe they de-sensitized it. 
 

 

Paul_D_North_Jr

zug -

I'm sorry if that seemed like a "smart remark" to you.  It was not at all intended that way - I was being and am absolutely serious in that I sincerely appreciated your confirmation of this aspect of the operations. 

The RWM comment was a general observation from a knowledgeable industry observer, and the Claytor one was from 25 years or so ago.  That's why it was most interesting to see that you had current hard facts that Amtrak (or somebody else) is taking this seriously enough to have put their money down and purchased, installed, and monitor a piece of equipment to prevent that kind of thing.  No one else had or posted that information, and I haven't seen it anyplace else, so it was particularly satisfying (to me, at least) for that confirmation - and especially from an operating guy who's actually out there and sees it first-hand.  My point was that it kind of completed a "hat trick" (so to speak) of 3 identical viewpoints on this - as you know, that's rare enough on this Forum to be able to have that much confidence that something is pretty much established.  If I could, knowing and having that info would be worth buying you a beer as a "thank-you", if I could - that's how I meant it.

Perhaps my wording could have been different (and longer, as above) to more clearly express my satisfaction at that having occurred - but I never for a moment thought it would be offensive to you, or anyone else.  I'll try to avoid that from happening again in the future.  And thanks for all that you do contribute to the Forum.

- Paul North.

 

[rrboomer]

A  "Wild" detector will seldom catch a flat spot. It is used to catch out of round wheels, but not 3" flat spot cars. 

 Yes, a locomotive can get out of round wheels.

 

[jeffhergert]

CShaveRR

That's a good idea! CNW used to have a ruler on its employee timetables, but it was for brake-piston travel. Wouldn't have been a problem to put the flat-spot limits on that page, too. UP doesn't do that, because the timetables are of a different format. The problem is, the only way that most crews have of detecting flat spots is to be riding on top of them. So freight crews usually don't know about them unless a detector or bystander informs them.

 

Psst, Carl,  turn the time table over and look at the back cover.

My own, unscientific, unsactioned rule of thumb is if you can hear the flat spot (on cars during a roll-by) about 5 or 6 cars before or after, it should be looked at.  Most flat spots seem to fade away after 2 or 3 cars. 

Late last year a crew got into trouble for not notifying a train that it had flat spots that had caused some broken rails.  For a while after that, many trains were having to stop to inspect when crews were reporting flat spots heard during roll-bys.  This was being done not to stick the railroad for what it had done to one crew but for self-preservation.  How does one know if the flat spot you hear, and they're heard a lot, is OK or not when it's passing you at 40 or 50 mph?  Better to report it than to get a little unpaid "vacation" if something happens down the road.  

I devised my own rule of thumb when I was inspecting for a reported flat spot.  The engineer was pulling the train past me and I wondered how I was going to tell the difference between the many flat spots.  When I heard it, there was no question that there was a problem.  Since then I've used the 5 or 6 car rule, but don't claim it's 100% reliable.

Jeff       

[WSOR 3801]

The latest wheel-truing device.

The rest of the setup.  Green bin to put the shavings in, the device, and the welder.  The welder is hooked up to the traction motor of the wheel being trued.  The wheel is jacked up, the welder gets turned on, and a guy stands in the pit working the device.  Always helps to hook the traction motor back up properly when done.  

CP has a WILD detector somewhere between Portage and La Crosse.  There are sidings nearby chock full of cars flagged by the detector.  One time the patrol had the engines flagged, but were told to keep going. 

[Mookie]

Joe - I had a little face time with my favorite Mudchicken about this and he told me about some of the cost involved if you are in, say, a rural area.  That made my hair curl!

[JoeKoh]

mookie

csx has called a couple of sidebooms and switched out traction motors in the yard here in defiance.

stay safe

joe

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zug -

I'm sorry if that seemed like a "smart remark" to you.  It was not at all intended that way - I was being and am absolutely serious in that I sincerely appreciated your confirmation of this aspect of the operations. 

The RWM comment was a general observation from a knowledgeable industry observer, and the Claytor one was from 25 years or so ago.  That's why it was most interesting to see that you had current hard facts that Amtrak (or somebody else) is taking this seriously enough to have put their money down and purchased, installed, and monitor a piece of equipment to prevent that kind of thing.  No one else had or posted that information, and I haven't seen it anyplace else, so it was particularly satisfying (to me, at least) for that confirmation - and especially from an operating guy who's actually out there and sees it first-hand.  My point was that it kind of completed a "hat trick" (so to speak) of 3 identical viewpoints on this - as you know, that's rare enough on this Forum to be able to have that much confidence that something is pretty much established.  If I could, knowing and having that info would be worth buying you a beer as a "thank-you", if I could - that's how I meant it.

Perhaps my wording could have been different (and longer, as above) to more clearly express my satisfaction at that having occurred - but I never for a moment thought it would be offensive to you, or anyone else.  I'll try to avoid that from happening again in the future.  And thanks for all that you do contribute to the Forum.

- Paul North.

[zugmann]

 I was addressing wabash's post about not having detectors for flat spots.  He probably doesn't have any in his territory, but we do in ours, thanks to the presence of passenger tracks. (and it's still pretty new ~ 2 yrs).

PS. >> I could do without the 'smart' remarks.  I'm sorry if I skipped over a post in this thread.  Sometimes I don't even know why I bother on here...    

Paul_D_North_Jr

  Yep - just as RWM and Graham Claytor said, per the previous posts.  Thanks for the current "real-world" confirmation of that in a most eloquent manner.

- PDN.