My Locomotive has a flat!

[Mookie]

wheel.  (I think)?

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

2:  More, less or about the same as say a coal gon?

3:  Would a defect detector be the one to pick it up? 

4:  When a defect detector finds a problem, who is notified?

5:  Thank you.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Well, the trackside equipment that is best for detecting flat wheels is a "Wheel Impact Load Detector", or "WILD" - a hotbox or dragging equipment detector obviously isn't going to be much good for that.

I'm sure that there are other quite capable "non-technological" methods by which flat spots on locomotive wheels are also found and dealt with - but I'll let others respond to that.

- PDN.

[edbenton]

If a Loco has a Flat wheel the Crew will be screaming at the shopp that the loco is riding rougher than normal and also that the coffee cups will not stay in the cup holders anymore.

[DSO17]

     About 30 years ago a large eastern railroad had an SD-9 that was used around the clock to flat shift a yard. I guess the independent brake cylinder pressure was set up too high because it would stop a cut of cars on a dime, but it had so many flat spots it sounded like a machine gun. Somebody wrote "Old Squarewheels" on the long hood. It was a great engine for kicking cars but eventually it got sent to the shop to have the brake set right and the wheels turned. When it came back, it was a good shifter, but not a great one.

[Convicted One]

Mookie

 

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

 

I'm sure they do, but this is more likely: http://csx-sucks.com/pictures/?burnim.jpg

[henry6]

Of course they do!  Unless the engineer is numb in the butt and his ears are on a cell phone or Ipod or otherwise plugged, he doesn't need a dector: he would hear and feel it the same way an NJT commuter feels it on his Comet ride!  Er, no sarcasm intended.  Much.

[CShaveRR]

Mookie

wheel.  (I think)?

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

2:  More, less or about the same as say a coal gon?

3:  Would a defect detector be the one to pick it up? 

4:  When a defect detector finds a problem, who is notified?

5:  Thank you.

1. Yes, as everyone so far has said.

2. Probably fewer instances in a given train, but possibly more than for any one freight car. Nobody has complete control over flat spots on the cars, but the engine crew is very likely going to be blamed for literally sitting on the creation of a locomotive flat spot.

3. As Paul said, you'd need a WILD detector if you were dependent on a detector for finding flat wheels on a locomotive. But the occupants are probably going to be the best detectors, either through hearing it or feeling it.

4. The defect message is broadcast over the radio, where any crew within earshot, as well as the dispatcher, can hear it. Appropriate notification would proceed from there, depending on what has to be done about the car, based on rules.

5. You're welcome, as always--service with a smile!

BC

[coborn35]

 Nooooo, not more likely.

Convicted One

Mookie

 

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

 

I'm sure they do, but this is more likely: http://csx-sucks.com/pictures/?burnim.jpg

[wabash1]

Mookie

wheel.  (I think)?

1:  do the engines get flat wheels?

2:  More, less or about the same as say a coal gon?

3:  Would a defect detector be the one to pick it up? 

4:  When a defect detector finds a problem, who is notified?

5:  Thank you.

1) yes they get flat wheels but its not the way most on here are stating, on most road engines the flat wheels are mostly caused by wet rail and no sand meaning that when you have the dynamic on and everything is going fine then the wheel slides because of the loss of traction the sand would have helped this from happening but if there is no sand the wheel will slide til the engine drops the load. it will load back up and most generally when it slides again it will be on the new flat spot making it bigger. You can hear these with no problem and if they are real bad they can be felt.

2) flat spots are flat spots they are about the same but made differantly

3) defect detector will not pick it up but if wheel is bad enough it will brake the rail.

4) dispatcher is to be notified and also the shops ( closest to you or tone up moc)

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Thanks for starting this thread, Ms. Mookie.  Allow me add to it with the following questions that probably pertain to both locomotives and cars:

6)  Does a flat spot have to absolutely flat / straight across to be heard and a problem ?  Or, is only a little flattening from the perfectly round configuration enough to be heard or felt ?  I suppose the running speed has a lot to do with this.

7)  How long does a flat spot have to be before it is heard, as in a train passing by ?

8)  How long does a flat spot have to be before it is "condemnable" as being too long, and the wheel has to be "trued" ?  Memory tells me that it's 1-1/2", but I'm not enough of a mechanical guy to know that for certain.  Is it the same for cars and locos ?

9)  What's the current "state of the art" for truing wheels ?  Does the axle have to be removed from the truck, or can that be done while still on the loco - with a "Lidgerwood" tool, or an under-track machine that the loco rests on, etc. ?

10)  Does a flat spot affect the loco's pulling capability under heavy loads ?  Is it more likely to initiate a slip when the flat spot is in contact with the rail, or doesn't that matter much ?

Thanks in advance for any insight.  Feel free to expand on these questions, too.

- PDN. 

[JoeKoh]

It was a wild detector that stopped the k 427 this past saturday near hamler.At first the crew thought it was their 2nd engine but it was their buffer car for an ethenol train.radio gets real active when a detector goes off.

stay safe

Joe

[Mookie]

Paul's # 9 was going to be my next question.  Since engines are heavier and have traction motors, is repair something that can be done on a rip track in the yard or do they need to be done at the diesel shop?

[oltmannd]

6) Both!  What can start out as a defined flat spot will eventually have its corners rounded off.  You won't hear it any more, but it still pounds the rails and can will be picked up by a WILD.  This is part of why WILDs have become increasingly popular.

8)  My 1988 AAR field manual says 2" or two or more adjoining that are 1-1/2".  That's for cars, but I think the same applies to locos.

9) Locomotives typically have their wheels trued up on lathes that don't required removal from the locomotive.  The axle ends have centers machined in them to accomodate this. There is a plug in the end of a Hyatt bearing box you remove to get at it.  For Timken, you take off the end cap.  In the case of a condemnable defect found at a location w/o a wheel truing lathe, the wheelset has to be changed out.  (usually the whole TM/wheel combo).  

10) I have never heard of or seen a study of this - or even heard any scuttlebutt or conjecture.  My guess is it doesn't matter much - at high TE demand, the wheel's rotational velocity is so slow I can't imagine the wheel would unload enough getting over the edge of the flat spot to cause a problem.

[tree68]

8)  How long does a flat spot have to be before it is "condemnable" as being too long, and the wheel has to be "trued" ?  Memory tells me that it's 1-1/2", but I'm not enough of a mechanical guy to know that for certain.  Is it the same for cars and locos ?

From NORAC 8th Edition.  Ninth edition is in effect, but I don't have that in digits right now

 71. Flat Spots
If a flat spot on a wheel of a car or engine develops en route, a member of the crew must inspect it. Upon completion of inspection, the train will be governed as follows:
a. Proceed at Normal Speed: The train may continue at Normal Speed if no other defects affecting movement are observed, AND if:
  1. The flat spot is less than 2½ inches in length.
OR
  2. If there are 2 adjoining spots, each is less than 2 inches in length.
b. Proceed at 10 MPH: If a flat spot is found in excess of either of the above dimensions, but less than 4 inches, and no other defect is observed, two actions must be taken:
  1. Speed must not exceed 10 MPH.
  2. A report must be made promptly to the Dispatcher or Operator.
c. Remain Stopped: If a flat spot of 4 inches or greater is found, the train must remain stopped until a report is made to the Dispatcher or Operator. When determined safe for movement, the Dispatcher (or Operator when authorized by the Dispatcher) will order the car or engine to be set out at the first available siding or terminal.

Doesn't really answer the "condemned" question, but might help provide some insight.

[henry6]

I know NJT and others now print a "ruler" in schedules and rule books to measure flat spots with specific instructions per length.  A flat spot will not only pound the rail but also the wheel, truck, and car/lcomotitive in total.  The wheel itself could eventually crack as could any other casted parts.  A rider...read train crew...should be able to discern a flat wheel by both sound and feeling of the ride.  And allowing it to go unattended could cause real problems; the sooner it is addressed, the safer everyone and everything is.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

What I'm also wondering is: 

11) Just because you can hear a flat wheel from trackside - or feel and hear it from the inside of a passenger car while riding, as henry6 mentioned - how does that relate to what is not acceptable for further service ? 

I've ridden some Amtrak Intercity and Regional trains in the 50 to 80 MPH speed range where there was a strong vibration and noise from one or both ends of the car - enough that I moved to the middle when possible to minimize its effect on me - but none of the crew seemed to care too much about it.  Of course, it might not have been a flat spot - an out-of-round wheel, a wheel that was not at exactly 90 degrees to the axle and so wobbled a little bit, maybe a worn bearing, etc. - and maybe they had the apathetic attitude of "If the carmen/ Mechanical Dept. guys didn't see any reason to take it out of service, I'm not going to be the guy who does".

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know if and what any "rule of thumb" or empirical correlation is between the "out-of-service" flat spot limit and felt or perceived noise and vibration.  For example, if your drink vibrates across and falls off the tray or table, then the wheel is probably over the limit - or nevertheless, still nowhere near it, etc.  Any insights on this ?  Thanks.

- Paul North.

 

[CShaveRR]

That's a good idea! CNW used to have a ruler on its employee timetables, but it was for brake-piston travel. Wouldn't have been a problem to put the flat-spot limits on that page, too. UP doesn't do that, because the timetables are of a different format. The problem is, the only way that most crews have of detecting flat spots is to be riding on top of them. So freight crews usually don't know about them unless a detector or bystander informs them.

[henry6]

Paul, that ruler does allow for a minor flat spot...less than a quarter of an inch I believe...to allow for normal speed running.  It will make noise and vibrations, but is not dangerous.  Supposedly.  Because if it is ignored completely it could become worse or cause other problems.  It does, or should be, reported by the crew at the end of each run.  I ridden many a NJT trains with flat wheels, at speed, with only the noise and the vibration being annoying to me but not the crew!

[oltmannd]

Paul_D_North_Jr

I've ridden some Amtrak Intercity and Regional trains in the 50 to 80 MPH speed range where there was a strong vibration and noise from one or both ends of the car - enough that I moved to the middle when possible to minimize its effect on me - but none of the crew seemed to care too much about it.  Of course, it might not have been a flat spot - an out-of-round wheel, a wheel that was not at exactly 90 degrees to the axle and so wobbled a little bit, maybe a worn bearing, etc. - and maybe they had the apathetic attitude of "If the carmen/ Mechanical Dept. guys didn't see any reason to take it out of service, I'm not going to be the guy who does".

My best guess is worn wheels - perhaps with a "false flange" - the initiated truck hunting.  That the problem was at higher speeds it the tip off. 

[zugmann]

wabash1

1) yes they get flat wheels but its not the way most on here are stating, on most road engines the flat wheels are mostly caused by wet rail and no sand meaning that when you have the dynamic on and everything is going fine then the wheel slides because of the loss of traction the sand would have helped this from happening but if there is no sand the wheel will slide til the engine drops the load. it will load back up and most generally when it slides again it will be on the new flat spot making it bigger. You can hear these with no problem and if they are real bad they can be felt.

2) flat spots are flat spots they are about the same but made differantly

3) defect detector will not pick it up but if wheel is bad enough it will brake the rail.

4) dispatcher is to be notified and also the shops ( closest to you or tone up moc)

We have a certain remote job that attaches their robot engine to the inbound road power and uses that to switch with. Always gives the road engines flat spots. (full throttle or full independent is how they operate). We now have special detectors (solid state impact detectors - SSID) that detect and will sound an alarm if a car or engine has excessive flat spots. THe SSID around here is located before you get on Amtrak, so a bad car won't wreck amtrak's rail.

[wabash1]

zugmann

wabash1

1) yes they get flat wheels but its not the way most on here are stating, on most road engines the flat wheels are mostly caused by wet rail and no sand meaning that when you have the dynamic on and everything is going fine then the wheel slides because of the loss of traction the sand would have helped this from happening but if there is no sand the wheel will slide til the engine drops the load. it will load back up and most generally when it slides again it will be on the new flat spot making it bigger. You can hear these with no problem and if they are real bad they can be felt.

2) flat spots are flat spots they are about the same but made differantly

3) defect detector will not pick it up but if wheel is bad enough it will brake the rail.

4) dispatcher is to be notified and also the shops ( closest to you or tone up moc)

We have a certain remote job that attaches their robot engine to the inbound road power and uses that to switch with. Always gives the road engines flat spots. (full throttle or full independent is how they operate). We now have special detectors (solid state impact detectors - SSID) that detect and will sound an alarm if a car or engine has excessive flat spots. THe SSID around here is located before you get on Amtrak, so a bad car won't wreck amtrak's rail.

Yes ive seen the same thing happen and by far i didnt want my statement to mean that it could not happen any other way, but most road engines do get flat spots the way i stated  and then there is the guys who think i wont be on that engine or it aint mine why do i care, that is evident by looking at the windshields in these engines from the feet on the walls and scratching the windows with their shoes making it hard for anyone else to see out the darn things.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

oltmannd

Paul_D_North_Jr

I've ridden some Amtrak Intercity and Regional trains in the 50 to 80 MPH speed range where there was a strong vibration and noise from one or both ends of the car - enough that I moved to the middle when possible to minimize its effect on me - but none of the crew seemed to care too much about it.  Of course, it might not have been a flat spot - an out-of-round wheel, a wheel that was not at exactly 90 degrees to the axle and so wobbled a little bit, maybe a worn bearing, etc. - and maybe they had the apathetic attitude of "If the carmen/ Mechanical Dept. guys didn't see any reason to take it out of service, I'm not going to be the guy who does".

My best guess is worn wheels - perhaps with a "false flange" - the initiated truck hunting.  That the problem was at higher speeds it the tip off. 

Ah, yes - I'd temporarily forgotten those other deviancies in train-track or rail-wheel dynamics.  Also, before the "false flange" happens, the phenomena of "hollow-worn" wheels can often occur - the supposedly flat 1:40 taper of the wheel tread gets a low or "hollow" dished-down spot worn in it.  That happens naturally enough from running on the gently curved top surface of the head of the rails, which on tangent track are mostly in the middle of the width of that tread.  Any of these will cause vibration, shaking, and noise, but I suppose a trained ear could tell the difference between them and flat spot(s).

Thanks for refreshing my recollection of all that, Don.

- Paul North.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zugmann

 [snip] We now have special detectors (solid state impact detectors - SSID) that detect and will sound an alarm if a car or engine has excessive flat spots. THe SSID around here is located before you get on Amtrak, so a bad car won't wreck amtrak's rail. [emphasis added - PDN.]

Yep - just as RWM and Graham Claytor said, per the previous posts.  Thanks for the current "real-world" confirmation of that in a most eloquent manner.

- PDN.

[CShaveRR]

12. (Or is it 13?) Why isn't this being discussed in the cafe?

[henry6]

OK. I have the NJT employees schedule; the back page presents NORAC operating rule pertaining to measuring flat spots (as per 9th Edition of NORAC Rulebook) under rule 71:  It has a 6 inch ruler with the following notes: If no other defects found affecting the movement and the flat spot is less than 2 1/2 inches or if two adjoining spots each is less than 2 inches, the proceed at normal speed.  If the measurement is beyond the above noted measurments, but not more that 4 inches, then 10 MPH movement may be made.  Over 4 inches, do not move and call the dispatcher for further instructions.

[zugmann]

 I was addressing wabash's post about not having detectors for flat spots.  He probably doesn't have any in his territory, but we do in ours, thanks to the presence of passenger tracks. (and it's still pretty new ~ 2 yrs).

PS. >> I could do without the 'smart' remarks.  I'm sorry if I skipped over a post in this thread.  Sometimes I don't even know why I bother on here...    

Paul_D_North_Jr

  Yep - just as RWM and Graham Claytor said, per the previous posts.  Thanks for the current "real-world" confirmation of that in a most eloquent manner.

- PDN.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zug -

I'm sorry if that seemed like a "smart remark" to you.  It was not at all intended that way - I was being and am absolutely serious in that I sincerely appreciated your confirmation of this aspect of the operations. 

The RWM comment was a general observation from a knowledgeable industry observer, and the Claytor one was from 25 years or so ago.  That's why it was most interesting to see that you had current hard facts that Amtrak (or somebody else) is taking this seriously enough to have put their money down and purchased, installed, and monitor a piece of equipment to prevent that kind of thing.  No one else had or posted that information, and I haven't seen it anyplace else, so it was particularly satisfying (to me, at least) for that confirmation - and especially from an operating guy who's actually out there and sees it first-hand.  My point was that it kind of completed a "hat trick" (so to speak) of 3 identical viewpoints on this - as you know, that's rare enough on this Forum to be able to have that much confidence that something is pretty much established.  If I could, knowing and having that info would be worth buying you a beer as a "thank-you", if I could - that's how I meant it.

Perhaps my wording could have been different (and longer, as above) to more clearly express my satisfaction at that having occurred - but I never for a moment thought it would be offensive to you, or anyone else.  I'll try to avoid that from happening again in the future.  And thanks for all that you do contribute to the Forum.

- Paul North.

[JoeKoh]

mookie

csx has called a couple of sidebooms and switched out traction motors in the yard here in defiance.

stay safe

joe

[Mookie]

Joe - I had a little face time with my favorite Mudchicken about this and he told me about some of the cost involved if you are in, say, a rural area.  That made my hair curl!

[WSOR 3801]

The latest wheel-truing device.

The rest of the setup.  Green bin to put the shavings in, the device, and the welder.  The welder is hooked up to the traction motor of the wheel being trued.  The wheel is jacked up, the welder gets turned on, and a guy stands in the pit working the device.  Always helps to hook the traction motor back up properly when done.  

CP has a WILD detector somewhere between Portage and La Crosse.  There are sidings nearby chock full of cars flagged by the detector.  One time the patrol had the engines flagged, but were told to keep going.