New Forum Rules..ala the Doctor

[csxengineer98]

well said kevin
to many people anymore what to be the social police..... if its not PC... its taboo...i say screw that.... im not PC..never have been..never will be..call me what you want...but face it...im a realist..that never bought into the liberal consept that this is going to be a perfict world......
csx engineer

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Addendum to the rules......

Instead I'll whine, complain and carry on,
senseless arguements I promise to dwell upon.
do what I want without remorse,
Let threads continue on thier course.
Belittle, flame and claim moral high ground,
Start a new thread and go another round.
I'll post and post until I'm heard,
I'll keep going until locked or I get final word.
I"ll continue to make Bergie's life hard,
Until he boots me from the yard.


I'm done.

thats a little bit more like it..... passtion and fire of an issue makes it a good topic.... how many times have you sat around in a "round table" type situation...and debaited issues without someone getting fired up... when people express thier feelings on an issue... it makes the dissustion all the more fun and fullfilling.... sometimes flaming dose happen..but thats life... if you think a post is getting out of controll..then dont read it anymore...simple as that..... but what you might think is an out of controll subject and a fight....might just be a realy heated disscution that the parties that are getting hot about find very importaint to them.....someone once made a comment in another tread that a topic was stupid and the parties should just stop...well..thats fine if your on the outside looking in...but what is stupid to you...isnt to someone else....
and yes..i have had drawn out yelling argements with fellow members of my crews at time..over issues.... its part of life...on one is going to get along all the time.... but after its all said and done... the next time that i work with the person...its water over the dam.... its a clean slate....
so in short......no one is going to get along with eveyone..all the time.... but sometimes its better to let things to run its course at times....
just my 2cents
csx engineer

Yeah, cause you certainly don't need my help to look like an ***.

[M636C]

Guys,

Here we are arguing about the use of the English Language, and none of us (as far as I know) are English! That is part of the problem. We have a language which was devised by someone else, with rules that applied somewhere else in a different society.

In the British Royal Navy, even today, there is a form of language known as "banter", where jokes are made, often at the expense of one of the group. But you are expected to cope with this and come back with one of your own, should you be the victim. The RAN has also had this tradition, but I learnt it from RN officers fairly early in life.

This is something like what can happen here on the forum. My recollection of "banter" was that if you took it too seriously, you lost!

Kevin's historical analysis of English is quite correct. However, my recollection was that the big problems with anglo-saxon only occurred after 1066 when the French took over what is now the UK. Use of an anglo-saxon word was frowned upon in in "polite" (meaning French speaking) society.

Hence we ate "beef", not cow or "mutton" not sheep. The problem with this was that it separated the subject from reality. It also allowed the Engli***o classify people by the words they used and the way they used them.

The best explanation of this was in George Bernard Shaw's "Pygmalion". If you haven't the time to read this, get a video of "My Fair Lady", the dumbed down version. Shaw, by the way, was an Irishman, and was able to see the situation from the outside.

Everything we say or write allows others to decide whether or not we "belong" to the appropriate group, if we follow the English rules. I learnt this by losing word games with Royal Navy officers up to the age of about twelve. That's why I write like this!

But I'm not English either, and I don't have to conform to the rules unless I want to do so. But If you want to avoid general disapproval, stick to the norms of behaviour indicated by the others. "When in Rome..." and so on.

Swearing is not normally acceptable, but is sometimes used for emphasis, even in a modified form, as Dan has shown. This might not be "acceptable" but if not overdone, may be "understood".

But we're here to help eachother and swap information, not to attack eachother, although the impersonal aspect of the written word does sometimes appear to invite this because something written may seem more serious than the same thing when spoken.

We should all think about what we are trying to say when writing, and what the other is trying to say when reading, and not jump to conclusions.

And Dan, have you spent much time playing word games in Royal Navy wardrooms?

Peter

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Addendum to the rules......

Instead I'll whine, complain and carry on,
senseless arguements I promise to dwell upon.
do what I want without remorse,
Let threads continue on thier course.
Belittle, flame and claim moral high ground,
Start a new thread and go another round.
I'll post and post until I'm heard,
I'll keep going until locked or I get final word.
I"ll continue to make Bergie's life hard,
Until he boots me from the yard.


I'm done.

thats a little bit more like it..... passtion and fire of an issue makes it a good topic.... how many times have you sat around in a "round table" type situation...and debaited issues without someone getting fired up... when people express thier feelings on an issue... it makes the dissustion all the more fun and fullfilling.... sometimes flaming dose happen..but thats life... if you think a post is getting out of controll..then dont read it anymore...simple as that..... but what you might think is an out of controll subject and a fight....might just be a realy heated disscution that the parties that are getting hot about find very importaint to them.....someone once made a comment in another tread that a topic was stupid and the parties should just stop...well..thats fine if your on the outside looking in...but what is stupid to you...isnt to someone else....
and yes..i have had drawn out yelling argements with fellow members of my crews at time..over issues.... its part of life...on one is going to get along all the time.... but after its all said and done... the next time that i work with the person...its water over the dam.... its a clean slate....
so in short......no one is going to get along with eveyone..all the time.... but sometimes its better to let things to run its course at times....
just my 2cents
csx engineer

Yeah, cause you certainly don't need my help to look like an ***.

that my be your oppion...and so noted..... but the also goes for you too....
csx engineer

[M636C]

Hey,

Kevin is the only one to spell "Seuss" correctly!

But guys, what part of "when you lose it, you lose" can't you follow?

Peter

[Mookie]

Kevin - my young friend - it isn't about swearing so much as it is about respect. You aren't going to say anything that I haven't already heard. But to show courtesy and respect for the people around you, is just good manners.

Swearing is like coughing - you don't cough on others, I would hope. You show manners and respect and cover your mouth. (Notice I didn't pick on smokers) Hopefully you wouldn't pick your nose at a dinner table with guests. Why would you swear a blue streak? Why is that any different?

And as for anyone following you around and telling you what is and isn't acceptable - that is why you have parents or some form of adult raising you as a child.

Mook

[Anonymous]

I tell you why that is Different:

Like I said society evolves.

Everyhting Evolves.

I don't descriminate against what language I use, matter of fact I have a gigantic vocabulary, and evne though I can't spell on-line for Beans, when I am doind an essay, or writing somehting out by hand, There is not one spelling mistake.

Here, I simply type to fast for my eyes to see, and am not to good at typing overly fast, so my letters get inversed all of the time.

Language is an odd thing; Each person will define it differently.

Perhaps it was the society I was raised in; But it seems our worlds are completely different. Seems like in this day and age, I walk outside and will hear the F word 150 times. When i was young, I told everyone Don't swear.. But why? I am slighlt British, But i'm not going to choose the Anglo-saxin english over the Latin English.

i don't descriminate using words, anbd the FCC isn't helping out society by bleeping out words, Contrary to what they think they are doing.

Coughing is not at all like swearing, Coughing spreads millions of particles of Bacteria, Colds, Flu, you name it, It is simply disgusting and intolerable. Although if someone were to correct me on how to cough, I would still tell them where they could go.

Now, i've taken into the fact that your Dad was an engineer. I'm glad he was the way he was; Quiet, didn't say a word and polite. that reflects abot 2-3% of the RR industry population. I don't want to burst anyones Bubble, But thats not how the RR industry works.

Wanna Really know what it is like? Look up a post by Ed Blysard on spelling.. he adressed Lisa, and started off with The RR industry is all about..

i can thik of two people who I work with, that really hate the Job they do and will go out of there way to make everyones lives miserable? Do i put up with their lip? Nope..

The best thing I can think of is since your dad was an Engineer, there has been an RR revolution- Because i jsut can't see an engineer being like your dad, I jsut can't. there is always somehting going wrong, that would get mother Teressa going on a swearing streak.

But back to the debate- Picking our noses- thats Gross, and would offend anyone, Coughing spreads germs and disease.. Swearing, here, is just no longer socially unaceptable- It's time to let old wars go, it's time to move on. Were progrestionists, not Fundamentalists, we progress rather then keep the past.

t's about time we all stop fighting this 500-1000 year old war in a last ditch effort to get society to change their language, it's not going to ahppen no matter what I, You, All of us or the FCC has to say about it.

pack it up, bow out, and lets all start worrying about REAL life problems.

[Mookie]

No, you are right - we aren't going to change society. But we can change ourselves. Dad was a Golden Gloves fighter, and when he was young, wanted to grow up to be a bootlegger. He fought in bar rooms and loved to brawl. But somewhere along the line, he figured out that it wasn't the way he wanted to be. Maybe it was his baby daughter. I don't know. But you get older and you pick your attitudes. I was a yeller. Had a great set of lungs! And I used them! But now don't want to expend that extra energy - it does no good anyway. No one listens after awhile.

Swearing, yelling, fighting - these are all habits and you just have to choose to break them. Or choose not, too. That is what gives us the freedom. But it is also a freedom for people to choose not to listen, engage or watch. So if we swear and fight and argue and carry on like barbarians (my apologies to any barbarians that are on the forum) then it will be you and one or two others that will be here all by yourselves.

And that would be sad.

I like a good free-for-all discussion - even a mild retort every so often. But I think sometimes the limits are stretched a little. Just like picking your nose - it is gross, but you don't hurt anyone. I just don't want to watch. Just like people in general would like a little restraint and decorum on the forums. Just a little.

Mook

[edblysard]

Wow, Kevin,
Now heres a problem...
I understand you think that being able to say what you want, in the manner you chose, is important.

It is, but let me ask you a question.

When you are describing your job to your mother, do you use the F word often?

I hope not, because not only would she smack you one upside the head, the word itself would, I suspect, offend her, and you chose not to do that, either out of respect, courtesy, self preservation, or all three.

The origin of the word matters not one whit, the use of it does.

Your correct, this forum isnt a true representation of the language you hear often at a railroad, but thats because those of us who work in the industry chose to clean it up when we post here, because we understand that the people who read this forum wouldnt like or understand the language.

Where I work, we have a young man who, although very bright, very smart, and very capable, will never go beyond being a switchman.

Nothing wrong with that, being a switchman is a good job, I like it, but...

In the 6 years this guy has been railroading, his natural ability to understand and grasp operations, his skill at keeping traffic flowing smoothly, his natural abilities, should have already put him up in the tower, as a yardmaster, and he should be on his way to a trainmasters job, hes that good, better than the seasoned ones we have now.

But it will never happen.

Heres why.

I timed one of his conversations, and within a 60 second span, he said the F word, or some variant of it, 16 times.

Now, by his own choice, using a form of language that in a part of the railroad culture one shouldnt use, he has limited himself, put up a barricade to advancement, and, wether he realizes it or not, caused most people to begin not hearing what he said.

Trust me, after the first few seconds, you no longer hear what he is trying to convey to you, all you hear is the F word, over and over.

Heres the rub, his word choices have begun to limit him outside the railroad culture also, just how good service do you think he receives at a eatery, if he tells a waitress, "I ll have a F***ing burger, and a f***ing coke, and some motherf***ing fries".

Do you think she hops right after it, because he "talks like real working man?"

Nah, he is always the last served, and no one cares if he is happy with his meal or not, all they want is for him to leave, as quickly as he can.

Waitresses dont come by and refill his glass, in the hopes he will not stay any longer than necessary.

People who once liked going out to eat with him, no longer do, myself included.
Because I am associated with him, people assume I am just as crude and rude.

You know from my postings, and the e-mails we exchange, that I write the same way I talk.

Do I have to resort to four letter words to get my point across?

No, in fact, I prefer to issue insults in such a manner that the person being insulted has to think about what I said to them.

Its more fun to leave them in a position where they wonder, "Did he just call me a horses ***?" or did he just say"if I was a horse, I'd have a big butt?"

Lots more fun.

The fact is, I do talk the talk at work, when its rarely needed and called for.

But I have found that most people, including my verbally challanged friend, listen better to what I have to say, when I dont cuss, and when I go out of my way to speak clearly and as precise as I can, they just flat listen closer, and respond better.

Fact is, both you and I live in at least two, maybe three different cultures, the railroad culture, the outside, civilan culture, and the home, or personal culture.

You dont really talk to Christa the same way you talk to a jerk conductor, do you?

Understand that this site isnt for railroaders to cuss and discuss work, its main purpose, apart from the commerical aspect, is to provide railfans a chance to talk about their hobby, and on occasion, to get a question answered by some one like you, me, wabash, csx, LC, Cshaver and other railroaders, who chose to come here and share our knowledge.

You, me, all of us realize that these fans will never come inside our work culture, and never understand that calling someone a di**head at work is perfectly ok, almost a form of endearment, that what we really do for a living is something they will never see first hand, that the language is so far removed from what they hear on a regular basis, that they often have to ask us to explain.

How many posting start with, "I heard this on my scanner, what does it mean?"

So, I chose to speak in a manner that I hope reflects well, not only on my profession, but on my person as well.

I grew up with a Chief Petty Officer for a dad, around a lot of NCOs, and enlisted men, who could melt your ears, give you brain damage and scorch you hair off, just by saying hello.

Away from base, these guys were the best example of how to behave you ever will see.

They stood up when women entered the room, took their hat off indoors, opened doors for ladys, and spoke well, very well.

Never did they curse in front of women, or in front of those people not a part of their culture.

On base and on board ship, you better have a set of salty ears, off base, perfect gentlemen.

All because they choose to be, not because they have to be.

I chose to be as much like them as I can, at work and away, not only because it benefits me, but because it benefits those I care about, my wife and kids, neighbors, and of course, the people on the forum.

You really dont want to say "kiss my a**" to Mookie or Cherokee woman, do you?

But thats exactally what you do, ever time you post something, or reply to a thread, you speak directly to them, because they read your words, weather you directed those words to them or not, they will see them.

And they will base their image of you, and decide what type of person you are, based solely on what you write.

Which image do you want them to have of you?

The image of a foul mouthed immature kid, who cant utter a sentence without a curse word in it,(see the part about my buddy up high) or the image of a young, intelligent, professional passenger conductor, someone they would trust with their life?

Because, even if you dont realize it, you are the first image people have of your railroad.

When they get on your train, you are CP rail to them, you alone represent your railroad's passenger service and the quality of it employees.

Same goes here, when you post, you are, in a round about way, the representive of your railroad, you are the spokesman for CP passenger service on the Trains.com fourm, just like I am the spokesman for the PTRA.

So you get to chose how the rest of the forum members see you, by your choice of words alone..

Not a bad deal, actually.

I mean, no one here knows about the hump on my back, or the webs between my toes and fingers....

All kidding aside, Kevin, how you speak (write) and what you say matters a great deal.

The ability to communicate your ideas and your skills to other people clearly, prescisely and in terms they understand, is the one tool that will open just about any door you want it to.

And the choice to use language popular with young immature kids, and not very pleasent to people who have something you want, will close and lock just about any door you let it.

Dont limit yourself by your language choices, in the manner my friend has, I know you, and I know your much, much better than that.

I think if you put you mind to it, you could run CP's passenger service, you could be the top dog.

Just dont let your mouth get in your way.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Addendum to the rules......

Instead I'll whine, complain and carry on,
senseless arguements I promise to dwell upon.
do what I want without remorse,
Let threads continue on thier course.
Belittle, flame and claim moral high ground,
Start a new thread and go another round.
I'll post and post until I'm heard,
I'll keep going until locked or I get final word.
I"ll continue to make Bergie's life hard,
Until he boots me from the yard.


I'm done.

thats a little bit more like it..... passtion and fire of an issue makes it a good topic.... how many times have you sat around in a "round table" type situation...and debaited issues without someone getting fired up... when people express thier feelings on an issue... it makes the dissustion all the more fun and fullfilling.... sometimes flaming dose happen..but thats life... if you think a post is getting out of controll..then dont read it anymore...simple as that..... but what you might think is an out of controll subject and a fight....might just be a realy heated disscution that the parties that are getting hot about find very importaint to them.....someone once made a comment in another tread that a topic was stupid and the parties should just stop...well..thats fine if your on the outside looking in...but what is stupid to you...isnt to someone else....
and yes..i have had drawn out yelling argements with fellow members of my crews at time..over issues.... its part of life...on one is going to get along all the time.... but after its all said and done... the next time that i work with the person...its water over the dam.... its a clean slate....
so in short......no one is going to get along with eveyone..all the time.... but sometimes its better to let things to run its course at times....
just my 2cents
csx engineer

Yeah, cause you certainly don't need my help to look like an ***.

that my be your oppion...and so noted..... but the also goes for you too....
csx engineer

See now don't you feel better? We found something we can agree on. The point of the poems was a joke, poking at fun at how things go here too often. It was a joke, humor, a parody. I am not trying to censor debate or opinions..the only person who has the right to squash your post is the moderator of the forum..he makes the rules..free speech exists here only in as much as Bergie or Mark allow it. Things do get out of hand when personality and ego drive it and it degrades into pointless flaming...name calling, baseless accusations, etc..... There is a difference between debating / discussing and pointless arguing...and when stuff gets out of hand in their opinion, they get to pull the plug. The freedom to express ourselves is pretty good here, but if we **** it away, then it's gone, because they have the responsibility to their boss to run a site which reflects positively on their corporation. The folks here need to make a forum targeted at all ages. Both you and I in our respective jobs talk differently and more colorfully than we do at home or when we have "guests" in the workspace. That doesn't mean we have to do it here. In the plane and at the office, every other word I say probably starts with an F. At home or in my boss's office or when I have visitors it doesn't. A forum and decorum for everything. We don't have to like each other, we don't have to take long showers together, and it doesn't mean I want you to stop posting your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. But, long term health of the forum would suggest that we at try, that is try, to be civil in our postings. The easier we make Bergie's job, the more lattitude he gives us.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C
[br

And Dan, have you spent much time playing word games in Royal Navy wardrooms?

Peter

I can't say that I have. My experience with the Brits is primarily the RAF and Army. But I have heard stories of the wardroom games on RN ships. Much different atmosphere than our own.

[M636C]

Dan,

The RAF (and RAAF) messes are similar, but the traditions of RN and RAN wardrooms are somewhat different, even on big ships like Aircraft Carriers. I can remember when we had a carrier... and a Fleet Air Arm... but change is good, isn't it.

But it wasn't just being taught word games by experts at an early age. My first electric train set came from Singapore on a T class submarine of the Royal Navy's Fourth Submarine Squadron, (HMS Telemachus, I think). To keep interest up among the readers here, it was a Hornby-Dublo EDG17 set, with 0-6-2 tank locomotive and four "goods wagons".

Much later, some HO passenger cars returned from Singapore in the empty cannon pack recess of a Mirage IIIO flown by an old friend from high school, but that's not what we're discussing here!

Of course, in Australia, the RAAF fly Orions and F/A-18s, and our Navy has only helicopters, with many of the support functions handled by the RAAF anyway.

Even in the Royal Navy, the aircraft on a carrier are as likely to be RAF as RN these days, but at least they still have them.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Very intersting Ed, I really like what you chose to write.

Ir's amazing How i can't argue with anyone like that.

Amazing how people online set themselves up, I don't think in a face to face conversation with anyone i would let out anyhting less then a 6 letter word, I usually use Big words, and spend a fair bit of time reading through the thesaurus to improve my english.. Just learned the other day "purile" behavior means Childish. 89% of Conductors wouldn't know that.

you may have stated above, and i may not have completely understood, but I perfer to outwit people using 10 letter long words then 4 letter words. I find insults much better if no one really knows what they mean, if I have to resort to that, And i only usually swear at inatimite objects, like Vending machines, that rob me of two dollars, such as today.

No, i don't talk to Christa like that, I don't talk to any passengers like that, I don't talk to anyone like that.

I talk to machines like that, i'll openly admit, And i'll talk with ym dad like that, i'll admit that to- Not direct it at him, but him and I will use those type of words.

Ed, sometimes I wonder about you- maybe you know my parents after all- your right about my mom, wouldn't dream of swearing in her presence, she'd kill me- a whack on the side of the head is somehting to hope for.
But I will admit, She is old-schoo. Don't think theres another parent like her on the block, shes very conservative.

Ed this is usually a G rated Apartment, and parents copuld send their kids here, if i omit all the sex jokes made around here, its defenately G rated.

But Ed, i can not argue with you. You stated that point very well, and i Just don't know what to answer to that.

That poor guy- his life is gonna suck!

[edblysard]

Kevin, I wasnt try to argue with you, just trying to point out that, if you speak well, no matter what the language, people will listen to you, even if they dont agree with what you are saying, they will pay attention long enough to get your message.

I also know you dont talk like that in front of Christa, from her postings here, she has made it quite clear that you two respect each other too much for you to speak like that, and I dont think she would put up with it, in the first place.

I was also trying to get a message across to the younger readers that being able to express your ideas in a manner that other people will hear and respond to is a excellent tool for getting what you want.

You can open quite a few doors for yourself, if you can convince the people who hold the keys to those doors that letting you in is good for them too!

Stay Frosty,
Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

Wow Ed, what an awesome post (the one that is too long to quote)! This one solidifies it for me...Ed for president! I'll be sure to write you in come November!

[edblysard]

You guys sure you want another redneck Texan in office?

There's always that german sounding feller from California....

Ed

[Anonymous]

Careful- if this gets too 'political' Bernie will have to push a button! Lets just say you, Ed, are the most qualified and probably quantified member/person/American for the job. Ahhh... I can see it already- education budget: doubled!, transportation budget: refined!, Amtrak budget: met! RC Locos?-GONE! Have I left anything out? (probably!)

[Anonymous]

Here's how I handle this--I may curse like a sailor (airman) when I "shoot the bull" with coworkers, but I certainly can't use that language on the radio. That's how I view this forum--it's a radio in computer form. Although I want to use my "sailor" language, if I did it on the radio, my butt would get time off or flat out fired.

Having spent time in retail management, I was basically the complaint department. The more foulmouthed someone was, the less likely I would try to resolve the issue. You could cuss me out but you would not cuss out my employees. Once the "complaintant" became" verbally abusive" I would sometimes call the police when the "discussion" got loud. Hat in hand for the foulmouthed once this took place.

You catch alot more flies with honey than vinegar.

To sum it up, there is a time and place for everything, and knowing when can be important. See Ed's post about one of his coworkers.

[Anonymous]

Ed--

Absolutely eloquent and completely correct!! Let me challenge us to give up--cold turkey--uncivil, abusive and gutter speech for a 1 week trial period. That doesn't mean refrain from disagreeing, debating or even arguing. When my wife and I got married (yes, marriage actually existed back then, after I set the club down and she came to) we both read Charlie Shedd's books, and in there he has a chapter on having a good argument, where he lays some very practical ground rules for surviving disagreements and having constructive arguments. One of the cardinal rules is to avoid personal attacks and derogatory speech. It works.

Some of you have figured out from my posts that I'm in charge at my place of employment. I can tell you that an employer worth their salt and on their toes will not tolerate that kind of speech, in-house or outside. It breeds bad employee morale, most employees do not respect the one doing it, and it will inevitably bleed over into client relations. And it's rare that it even does any good as a motivator. People who talk that way are generally felt to be NOT funny, NOT genteel, and basically craniorectally challenged.

A late friend of mine was a retired USMC officer. He was always civil, even when he probably didn't want to be, but it is amazing how much respect that generated.

Fact is, in our society, people who speak in a cultured manner (and I don't mean intentionally using 25 cent words or trying to look smart - that's transparently childish) are generally viewed as being more intelligent and thought-out, even if they're not! Want to appear maybe smarter that you actually are?? Clean up your speech and written language.

Want to look like f-----ing g-------- s----eating trailer trash, even if you're not?? Just talk and write like you just climbed out of a full septic tank. See how far that gets you. Would you buy something or sign a contract that guy offers you??? Would you let your kid talk to you like that?

Anatomical public speech should be confined to the appropriate med school lecture classes.

Ed, your daddy taught you right.[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Careful- if this gets too 'political' Bernie will have to push a button! Lets just say you, Ed, are the most qualified and probably quantified member/person/American for the job. Ahhh... I can see it already- education budget: doubled!, transportation budget: refined!, Amtrak budget: met! RC Locos?-GONE! Have I left anything out? (probably!)

OH, i havn't laughed so hard in my life

"Bernie"

LOL, the thread will be azed jsut for that reason..

That was good.. 10 points for you!