Is this line double or single track?
If you mean the loops at Yoho, the line is single track as I recall, although I think leading up to the tunnels the tracks have some long passing sidings so it might look like double track.
Single track.
Thanks both of you.
Hi,
I'd like to learn more about this tunnel. Can someone tell me about it.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
It starts up.
Then it goes around.
Then it's lower.
And there are two of it.
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Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
bubbajustin Hi, I'd like to learn more about this tunnel. Can someone tell me about it.
you can google Spiral Tunnels Canadian Pacific and alot will show up...wikapedia has a good article on the subject. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any really good pics.
This shows the tunnels, looking eastward. The tunnels are the dashed lines. The summit of Kicking Horse Pass is in the background. Type "Spiral Tunnels" into Google image search and more show up.
RWM
Having begun my RR engineering in the days of transits, 100 foot steel tapes (called chains) and Wye or Dumpy levels I can only imagine the difficulties in establishing alignment and grade as construction progressed within these tunnels. Especially since the surveying equipment I used was superior to that at the time these tunnels were built.
I am reminded of the old surveyors tale about how tunnels were built in China during that era; " you put 10,000 coolies on each side of the mountain and if they met in the middle you had your tunnel, if not you had two tunnels".
Somebody once described the construction of this line by the CPR's founders as being so bold a venture as to continue progressing on the plains to the east, "while the surveyors were looking to see if they even had a pass". Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was - I wouldn't rule out John G. Kneiling, though.
Re: 2nd paragraph: - haven't heard (or read) that one before. Reminds me of stories I heard about how during WW II, when Japanese attacks blasted boulders down onto the airfields that were being used by the Allied Air Forces (US), those boulders were then removed - lots of Chinese with hammers going "plink, plink, plink" all through the night is how it got done.
RWM - nice depiction ! Better than some model RR layouts. Thanks for sharing.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_JrSomebody once described the construction of this line by the CPR's founders as being so bold a venture as to continue progressing on the plains to the east, "while the surveyors were looking to see if they even had a pass". Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was - I wouldn't rule out John G. Kneiling, though.
Predates Kneiling by over one century. John A. Macdonald might have been one of the first to say this.
Railway Man This shows the tunnels, looking eastward. The tunnels are the dashed lines. The summit of Kicking Horse Pass is in the background. Type "Spiral Tunnels" into Google image search and more show up. RWM
For those who do not want to look it up, either via Google or in Trains (back in the fifties). Here is a brief description. The highway pretty much uses the original railroad grade. The CP wanted to ascend to Kicking Horse Pass on a more gentle grade, and the only way it work the problem out was by having the track double back on itself three times--and it had to bore the two tunnels do that because the valley was not wide enough to have all the track out in the open. The turn of the first and the third double-back is inside a tunnel. I don't think that the CP used coolies to bore the tunnels. It is quite an engineering feat.
Johnny
I' m not sure they used Chinese labor as this thing was build in the early 1900s...According to what I've read the Central Pacific's Summit Tunnel was the last to be excavated using hand labor...tunnel boring machines...albeit primitive ones were used thereafter. Apparently these machines were even available to the Central Pacific; however Charles Crocker (who was responsible for its construction) didn't want to use it...preferring the proven Chinese labor.
Railway Man Paul_D_North_Jr Somebody once described the construction of this line by the CPR's founders as being so bold a venture as to continue progressing on the plains to the east, "while the surveyors were looking to see if they even had a pass". Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was - I wouldn't rule out John G. Kneiling, though. Predates Kneiling by over one century. John A. Macdonald might have been one of the first to say this. RWM
Paul_D_North_Jr Somebody once described the construction of this line by the CPR's founders as being so bold a venture as to continue progressing on the plains to the east, "while the surveyors were looking to see if they even had a pass". Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was - I wouldn't rule out John G. Kneiling, though.
Yes - whoever it is that I'm recalling said that, the context was clearly one of a historical look back. But I didn't know that any of the CPR"s "principals", officials, or participants had ever actually recognized, stated, or admitted that was how they had temporized while looking for a pass to use - interesting.
- PDN.
UlrichI' m not sure they used Chinese labor as this thing was build in the early 1900s...According to what I've read the Central Pacific's Summit Tunnel was the last to be excavated using hand labor...tunnel boring machines...albeit primitive ones were used thereafter. Apparently these machines were even available to the Central Pacific; however Charles Crocker (who was responsible for its construction) didn't want to use it...preferring the proven Chinese labor.
Hand drilling was the typical practice in tunnel boring and hard-rock mining into the 1890s, and persisted in smaller hard-rock mines into the 1920s. Higher labor costs after WWII finally ended the practice. Coal mining mechanized later, with some mines using almost no mechanized coal drilling, cutting, or loading until the 1950s.
A Tunnel Boring Machine by definition is full-face for the bore. TBMs were tried way back into the 19th century, but did not find technical success until about 25 years ago. The first successful machine-aided tunneling tool was the steam- or air-powered drill, which appeared in the 1840s -- steam drills were very quickly supplanted by compressed air, and vanished. None of the numerous power drill designs were truly successful until the Leyner drill, which appeared in the 1890s in Colorado. Leyner sold his patents and his company to Ingersoll-Rand in 1912.
U.S. railway practice preferred to advance tunnels full-face, using drills mounted on a "jumbo," which is a movable, multilevel platform that enables workmen and drills to attack the full face, or using two or three narrow benches, one at base-of-arch height and another half-way down the vertical. European practice normally was not full-face and either drove an initial heading at the top of the arch and followed behind breaking down a lower bench, or sometimes drove two initial headings at the base of the arch and worked upward subsequently, or in very difficult ground drove a pilot bore inside the final bore, and enlarged outward. The book "Tunneling" by Gosta Sandstrom is the definitive history of all this.
Crocker could have employed machine drills, but since at his time they were a very immature technology, very expensive, and created very high financial risk, he chose to continue with single-jack and double-jack hand drilling, which was prudent. Machine drilling was employed in most of the long tunnels in the late 19th century such as the Hoosac, Frejus, and Mt. Cenis, because the mulit-year durations of these project justified the very high expenditure for fixed power plants, machine shops, an army of repairmen to fix the drills, and another army of blacksmiths to sharpen the drill steels, etc. But for short tunnels (sub-5,000 foot), machine drilling prior to the introduction of the Leyner drill made no economic sense, and was almost never employed, not on the CP and not on numerous contemporary railway projects either.
No single ethnicity or nationality held any special capability to do tunnel work; anyone could be trained. Crocker employed Chinese because they were much less expensive than the alternative.
Ulrich I' m not sure they used Chinese labor as this thing was build in the early 1900s...According to what I've read the Central Pacific's Summit Tunnel was the last to be excavated using hand labor...tunnel boring machines...albeit primitive ones were used thereafter. Apparently these machines were even available to the Central Pacific; however Charles Crocker (who was responsible for its construction) didn't want to use it...preferring the proven Chinese labor.
Deggesty Railway Man This shows the tunnels, looking eastward. The tunnels are the dashed lines. The summit of Kicking Horse Pass is in the background. Type "Spiral Tunnels" into Google image search and more show up. RWM You can see the tunnel on the left from a turnout on the side of the highway (Canada 1); I was not able to see the other tunnel from the highway, but I did get pictures of a short train as it entered and as it exited the tunnel on the left six years ago. For those who do not want to look it up, either via Google or in Trains (back in the fifties). Here is a brief description. The highway pretty much uses the original railroad grade. The CP wanted to ascend to Kicking Horse Pass on a more gentle grade, and the only way it work the problem out was by having the track double back on itself three times--and it had to bore the two tunnels do that because the valley was not wide enough to have all the track out in the open. The turn of the first and the third double-back is inside a tunnel. I don't think that the CP used coolies to bore the tunnels. It is quite an engineering feat. [emphasis added - PDN] Johnny
You can see the tunnel on the left from a turnout on the side of the highway (Canada 1); I was not able to see the other tunnel from the highway, but I did get pictures of a short train as it entered and as it exited the tunnel on the left six years ago.
For those who do not want to look it up, either via Google or in Trains (back in the fifties). Here is a brief description. The highway pretty much uses the original railroad grade. The CP wanted to ascend to Kicking Horse Pass on a more gentle grade, and the only way it work the problem out was by having the track double back on itself three times--and it had to bore the two tunnels do that because the valley was not wide enough to have all the track out in the open. The turn of the first and the third double-back is inside a tunnel. I don't think that the CP used coolies to bore the tunnels. It is quite an engineering feat. [emphasis added - PDN]
Johnny -
I'm not seeing the second / middle double-back - which would be out in the open, not in a tunnel - in the accompanying depiction. Neither Google Maps nor MircoSoft LiveEarth show the tracks in their "Map" or "Road" views (respectively), and neither has enough fine resolution to see the line in the "Aerial" photo views. Further, I don't have my copy of William D. Middleton's Landmarks on (of ?) the Iron Road handy. So can you provide some further guidance as to where that middle double-back is ? Thanks !
Does the grade continue inside the tunnels or is it more or less level in there?
UlrichDoes the grade continue inside the tunnels or is it more or less level in there?
Short answer is yes, the grade continues.
Long answer is:
The grade is compensated for curvature on this line. Various railways have different compensation formulas but typically it is on the order of 5-10% reduction, depending upon the degree of curvature. (Some mountain lines have no compensation for curvature -- I believe the SP line over the Tehachapis is an example.)
There are variations from the nominal ruling grade on this line in the tunnels and outside the tunnels -- almost no mountain grade is "continuous" but has many flatter spots than the nominal ruling grade, because of geography. I don't have the track charts at hand, but last time I rode through them on the head-end of a train, it seemed to me there was no significant reduction of grade in the tunnels.
The stories I know of the Spiral Tunnels. The last job as Operator my Father had before he became a Station Agent was third trick at Stephen BC, the summit of the Kicking Horse Pass. This was in the train order, steam helper era 1951-53.
The questions asked so far can all be answered in "The Spiral Tunnels and The Big Hill" by Graeme Pole, Altitude Publishing Canada, Ltd., 1995.
A short description goes like this from east to west. The mainline splits at Lake Louise AB into two separate lines The westbound line is used primarily by unit commodity trains (grain, sulfur and potash), and has a reduced grade to about 1% as I recall, was built in the late 70's. The lines join together at the summit of the Kicking Horse Pass, and Great Divide between the Atlantic and Pacific watersheds, at Stephen and then descends through the sidings/stations of Partridge, above the Upper Spiral Tunnel, Yoho between the tunnels, and Cathedral, below the Lower Spiral Tunnel. The hill ends at Field BC, the endpoint of the Calgary-Field Laggan Sub. It is single track with sidings.
In the pre-CTC era Lake Louise, Stephen, Partridge, Yoho, and Cathedral as well as Hector, between Stephen and Partridge, were all manned 24/7. In the spring before the foliage came out you could stand at a spot near the Partridge station and look down and see both Yoho and Cathedral stations. When the CTC was brought in, the siding at Yoho was too short to be integrated into the CTC, but it still exists today as a spot to put cars that become bad-ordered on the first part of the decent, as well as a place to spot work trains and equipment for the almost annual summer maintenance that needs to be done there.
Two other notes about today's operations, Stephen has been relocated 0.9 mi. west of where it was in my father's time, and a new siding was added on the revised westbound line called Divide.
And as a final note my Mother still talks about never having seen as much snow before or since as the first time my Father took her to Stephen. Those two should really have written a book.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Paul_D_North_Jr Johnny - I'm not seeing the second / middle double-back - which would be out in the open, not in a tunnel - in the accompanying depiction. Neither Google Maps nor MircoSoft LiveEarth show the tracks in their "Map" or "Road" views (respectively), and neither has enough fine resolution to see the line in the "Aerial" photo views. Further, I don't have my copy of William D. Middleton's Landmarks on (of ?) the Iron Road handy. So can you provide some further guidance as to where that middle double-back is ? Thanks ! - Paul North.
Incidentally, after reading your proper objection to my statement, I tried to find the item about the tunnels in Trains, but was unable to, as I looked up Canadian Pacific, Kicking Horse, Engineering, and Morgan, David P. in the indices from 1952 to 1960 (I was sure that the items about engineering feats were published in those years).
The original line had a maximum grade of 4.5%, with three safety switches, according to the SPV map. Two of them were above Yoho, and the third was just above the tunnel below Yoho (this tunnel is visible in the picture).
Hey, not a problem. The alignment is so convoluted that I could believe there is a 3rd double-back - esp. right in the middle, where the track seems to curve out of sight - together with a few other shorter curves to offset for or "neutralize" it, so that the line does go on through the pass. Thanks for clarifying.
In return, here's the citation to the 1952 article I think you meant, as well as a couple of others (I searched for "tunnel" as a keyword in Trains only - got 28 entries):
CPR's spiral tunnels Trains, April 1952 page 22 Notable feats of railroad engineering; Kicking Horse Pass ( CPR, "GLOFF, GEORGE A.", LINE, PASS, TUNNEL, TRN )
Canadian Spiral Tunnels Trains, December 1940 ( TUNNEL, "WESTCOTT, LINN", PROTOTYPE, TRN )
Wonders of the railroad world Trains, August 1996 page 34 the 10 greatest feats of railroad engineering ( BRIDGE, ENGINEERING, "MIDDLETON, WILLIAM D.", TUNNEL, TRN )
Some more info.
http://www.google.com/search?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=cp+spiral+tunnels&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rich -
Thanks ! You have better skills (or luck) than I did with a similar search. Here's the link to a neat map depiction that I found on the 2nd page (I think) of the results:
http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=97820&d=1235502439
Railway ManPaul_D_North_JrSomebody once described the construction of this line by the CPR's founders as being so bold a venture as to continue progressing on the plains to the east, "while the surveyors were looking to see if they even had a pass". Unfortunately, I can't remember who that was - I wouldn't rule out John G. Kneiling, though. Predates Kneiling by over one century. John A. Macdonald might have been one of the first to say this.RWM
I think there is a confusion about passes here. Kicking Horse Pass was already well known. The problem was further west, where the Selkirk Mountains were in the way. They could be bypassed by following the "big bend" of the Columbia River a long way to the north, but a more direct route was critical. Major A.B.Rogers was hired to search for a feasible short cut, and the pass he discovered is the one that still bears his name. The CPR might well have run out of money and collapsed if they had had to build the longer route
In the Spiral Tunnels area, the original intention was to continue along the mountain sides at 2.2% until line reached the valley bottom in the Ottertail area, about 6 miles west of Field, BC. For various reasons a temporary 4.4% grade was built, a yard established in Field, and the track then climbed back up to rejoin the original survey. Once the CPR was able to afford the costs of getting rid of that nightmare grade, the engineers determined that the original survey was impracticable because of very unstable rock and slide paths. The Spiral Tunnels were the solution to reducing the grade to allow more reasonable operations. West of Field the track was also rerouted to follow the river instead of climbing unnecessarily up to the discarded alignment.
Double track now runs from Lake Louise to Stephen. There are plans to build a second track to connect Stephen with the siding at Partridge, just above the Upper Spiral, but the economic meltdown may have delayed that.
To clarify another post, the railway location "Stephen" was moved when the second track from Lake Louise was built. "Stephen" is now at the former west end of the Stephen siding (end of double track), and "Divide" is a crossover between the two tracks not far from the former east end of the siding. The original station was somewhere in the middle.
John
Railway Man Ulrich I' m not sure they used Chinese labor as this thing was build in the early 1900s...According to what I've read the Central Pacific's Summit Tunnel was the last to be excavated using hand labor...tunnel boring machines...albeit primitive ones were used thereafter. Apparently these machines were even available to the Central Pacific; however Charles Crocker (who was responsible for its construction) didn't want to use it...preferring the proven Chinese labor. Hand drilling was the typical practice in tunnel boring and hard-rock mining into the 1890s, and persisted in smaller hard-rock mines into the 1920s. Higher labor costs after WWII finally ended the practice. Coal mining mechanized later, with some mines using almost no mechanized coal drilling, cutting, or loading until the 1950s. [EDIT - add the following para. back in] A Tunnel Boring Machine by definition is full-face for the bore. TBMs were tried way back into the 19th century, but did not find technical success until about 25 years ago. The first successful machine-aided tunneling tool was the steam- or air-powered drill, which appeared in the 1840s -- steam drills were very quickly supplanted by compressed air, and vanished. None of the numerous power drill designs were truly successful until the Leyner drill, which appeared in the 1890s in Colorado. Leyner sold his patents and his company to Ingersoll-Rand in 1912. [snip] Crocker could have employed machine drills, but since at his time they were a very immature technology, very expensive, and created very high financial risk, he chose to continue with single-jack and double-jack hand drilling, which was prudent. Machine drilling was employed in most of the long tunnels in the late 19th century such as the Hoosac, Frejus, and Mt. Cenis, because the mulit-year durations of these project justified the very high expenditure for fixed power plants, machine shops, an army of repairmen to fix the drills, and another army of blacksmiths to sharpen the drill steels, etc. But for short tunnels (sub-5,000 foot), machine drilling prior to the introduction of the Leyner drill made no economic sense, and was almost never employed, not on the CP and not on numerous contemporary railway projects either. No single ethnicity or nationality held any special capability to do tunnel work; anyone could be trained. Crocker employed Chinese because they were much less expensive than the alternative. RWM
[EDIT - add the following para. back in]
[snip]
OK, this is the place to insert your favorite rendition of "John Henry, the Steel Drivin' Man", such as from:
http://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/
From NPR's Present at the Creation - John Henry:
Though the story of John Henry sounds like the quintessential tall tale, it is certainly based, at least in part, on historical circumstance. There are disputes as to where the legend originates. Some place John Henry in West Virginia, while recent research suggests Alabama. Still, all share a similar back-story. In order to construct the railroads, companies hired thousands of men to smooth out terrain and cut through obstacles that stood in the way of the proposed tracks. One such chore that figures heavily into some of the earliest John Henry ballads is the blasting of the Big Bend Tunnel -- more than a mile straight through a mountain in West Virginia. Steel-drivin' men like John Henry used large hammers and stakes to pound holes into the rock, which were then filled with explosives that would blast a cavity deeper and deeper into the mountain. In the folk ballads, the central event took place under such conditions. Eager to reduce costs and speed up progress, some tunnel engineers were using steam drills to power their way into the rock. According to some accounts, on hearing of the machine, John Henry challenged the steam drill to a contest. He won, but died of exhaustion, his life cut short by his own superhuman effort.
In order to construct the railroads, companies hired thousands of men to smooth out terrain and cut through obstacles that stood in the way of the proposed tracks. One such chore that figures heavily into some of the earliest John Henry ballads is the blasting of the Big Bend Tunnel -- more than a mile straight through a mountain in West Virginia.
Steel-drivin' men like John Henry used large hammers and stakes to pound holes into the rock, which were then filled with explosives that would blast a cavity deeper and deeper into the mountain. In the folk ballads, the central event took place under such conditions. Eager to reduce costs and speed up progress, some tunnel engineers were using steam drills to power their way into the rock. According to some accounts, on hearing of the machine, John Henry challenged the steam drill to a contest. He won, but died of exhaustion, his life cut short by his own superhuman effort.
- Read John Henry song lyrics.
[early version]
He worked from six 'till five,
"Raise 'em up bullies and let 'em drop down,
I'll beat you to the bottom or die."
"You are nothing but a common man,
Before that steam drill shall beat me down,
I'll die with my hammer in my hand."
"You must listen to my call,
I'll jar these mountains till they fall."
"I believe these mountains are caving in."
John Henry said to his captain: "Oh, Lord!"
"That's my hammer you hear in the wind."
"Your money is getting mighty slim,
When I hammer through this old mountain,
Oh Captain will you walk in?"
With fifty dollars in his hand,
He laid his hand on his shoulder and said:
"This belongs to a steel driving man."
The big steam drill on the left,
Before that steam drill could beat him down,
He hammered his fool self to death.
From his shoulder his hammer would ring,
She caught on fire by a little blue blaze
I believe these old mountains are caving in.
He turned over on his side,
And these were the last words John Henry said
"Bring me a cool drink of water before I die."
Her name was Pollie Ann,
He hugged and kissed her just before he died,
Saying, "Pollie, do the very best you can."
She could not rest on her bed,
She got up at midnight, caught that No. 4 train,
"I am going where John Henry fell dead."
His wife all dressed in blue,
She laid her hand on John Henry's cold face,
"John Henry I've been true to you."
cx500 The original station was somewhere in the middle.
The original station was about 75-100 ft. west of the obelisk marking the highest point on the CPR near the original east siding switch.
Paul_D_North_Jr CPR's spiral tunnels Trains, April 1952 page 22 Notable feats of railroad engineering; Kicking Horse Pass ( CPR, "GLOFF, GEORGE A.", LINE, PASS, TUNNEL, TRN )
If you go to the tunnel, make sure you memorize the maps above, as the lookoff will give you no idea what is going on, The vantage point is different than the diagram. It is hard to fathom the tunnel system by looking at a bunch of trees and a big bunch of large mountains. This brings back a few memories of going through the tunnel behind steam on old coaches and opening the windows on the car, hey, we were air cadets on our way to summer camp at Abbotsford B.C.
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