chatanugaAlso, I refuse to call the teenagers involved "railfans". To me, a railfan observes railroad operations and does not interfere. These kids were repeatedly texting this guy when they knew he was at work as well as going for unauthorized cab rides, working with this guy to sneak into the cab. I realize that they're young, but they are still old enough to know better.
Also, I refuse to call the teenagers involved "railfans". To me, a railfan observes railroad operations and does not interfere. These kids were repeatedly texting this guy when they knew he was at work as well as going for unauthorized cab rides, working with this guy to sneak into the cab. I realize that they're young, but they are still old enough to know better.
Thank you, Kevin, for recognizing that not all teen railfans are like that! I'm a teen railfan (although I would not call myself a foamer), and I definitely have a whole lot of respect for the industry and the men and women who are part of it. I try not to block platforms when railfanning or cause any worry to the train crews, and there's no way I'd conspire with even a member of the train crew to operate a train! But I don't know if the general public will recognise that...
Bucyrus UlrichAll I've stated is that it might be worthwhile for the investigation to look at everything...including the conductor who tested postive. What are you asking for? Apparently it was the investigation that looked at the conductor and tested him for drugs. What more do you want?
UlrichAll I've stated is that it might be worthwhile for the investigation to look at everything...including the conductor who tested postive.
What are you asking for? Apparently it was the investigation that looked at the conductor and tested him for drugs. What more do you want?
not asking for anything.. just arguing a point..
The outcome would not have been any different...but since the whole point of the investigation is to ultimately prevent further incidents then it becomes important.
To use another example..lets say that an airplane crashes and that subsequent investigation discovers that the pilot was in error. And oh by the way..a nondetonated bomb was found on board. Should the bomb be excluded from any investigation? Your argument states YES...as the plane crashed due to pilot error and not the bomb.
Ulrich I'm giving the investigation credit...I'm arguing with the folks who seem to think the pothead should be disregarded as not important to the investigation.
I'm giving the investigation credit...I'm arguing with the folks who seem to think the pothead should be disregarded as not important to the investigation.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Bucyrus I think that anyone who wants to really understand what happened should read the transcript of the text messages. They are rather hard to read because they are cryptic and somewhat redacted. But there are a lot of them, and together, they produce a larger overall picture of what was going on. Maybe it’s just me, but I get a kind of creepy feeling from reading them.
I think that anyone who wants to really understand what happened should read the transcript of the text messages. They are rather hard to read because they are cryptic and somewhat redacted. But there are a lot of them, and together, they produce a larger overall picture of what was going on. Maybe it’s just me, but I get a kind of creepy feeling from reading them.
The popular premise put forth as the cause of this wreck has been the general distraction of text messaging. We all know that text messaging can be distracting to another task. But like cell phone use, the distraction of text messaging is twofold. One aspect is the physical manipulation of the device, and the other is the engaging nature of the message. The latter can be a distraction even with a direct conversation with another person in your vehicle. Knowing this, and upon hearing of the incredible number of text messages sent and received by Sanchez, I wondered what the messages were about. How engaging they were they?
Sanchez was planning to let a railfan run the locomotive, and the two had exchanged many text messages planning the event, expressing unusual excitement about the illegal trip and apprehension about their fear of getting caught. This texting had continued over several days, and it is clear that the communication was highly emotional with suspense building as the day planned for the illegal act drew near.
At the moment of the 4:22 PM crash, this railfan-locomotive-running event was to occur only about 3 hours later. Suspense and apprehension were peaking. Sanchez and the railfan were exchanging text messages about it right up until 22 seconds before impact with the UP freight.
Here is the transcript. All of the text messages are shown in pages 18-63, and they cover the dates of 9/5-9/12/2008.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Railroad/DCA08MR009/414046.pdf
From the link:
[Engineer to person A]: “I’m gonna do all the radio talkin’...ur gonna run the locomotive & I’m gonna tell u how to do it. “
Ulrich It seems to be a pervasive problem among drivers as well...I frequently see people in their cars and in fast moving traffic talking on their cell phones...text messaging.. and even working on their laptops. It's not just doughnuts and coffee anymore.. that's a given now. I hate to say it...but I think we need a law.
It seems to be a pervasive problem among drivers as well...I frequently see people in their cars and in fast moving traffic talking on their cell phones...text messaging.. and even working on their laptops. It's not just doughnuts and coffee anymore.. that's a given now. I hate to say it...but I think we need a law.
I agree. I've been in two accidents with cell phone drivers. In the first, it was partly my fault for loosing control and going into a sideways skid, but had the other driver not been on his phone, I wouldn't have gotten hit. In the other case, I'd just stopped at a red light when a cell phone driver slid on the wet pavement under the back end of my Jeep.
Over the past few years, I've seen people doing just about everything while driving: talking on the phone, reading, eating, putting on makeup, etc. Anymore, people don't realize that when they're at the wheel, they need to pay attention.
The same is true for the people operating our railroads. When you're controlling that much tonnage and have hundreds of lives in your hands, you need to pay attention to what you're doing, not sending text messages or calling a bunch of kids or letting them in the cab at the controls. It's one thing when a railfan is authorized to be in the cab to observe. It's totally irresponsible and unprofessional to allow them at the controls that should only be touched by professionals.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Ulrich I'm not holier than though nor do I drink and drive. Nor did I assume he was high while on the job... All I've stated is that it might be worthwhile for the investigation to look at everything...including the conductor who tested postive.
I'm not holier than though nor do I drink and drive. Nor did I assume he was high while on the job... All I've stated is that it might be worthwhile for the investigation to look at everything...including the conductor who tested postive.
I'm not holier than though nor do I drink and drive. Nor did I assume he was high while on the job... All I've stated is that it might be worthwhile for the investigation to look at everything...including the conductor who tested postive. You're implying that testing postive is okay provided that he wasn't high while on duty.. I don't think so... I don't believe UP or any of the other roads think so either. If that stuff is part of your lifestyle then you need to be doing work that does not involve public safety. You can't be half responsible..either you are or you aren't.
Also, do conductors know weeks in advance when they will be called on duty? I don't think so...so it makes sense to stay clean or he/she might get caught with being high and then called for duty.
I hope that this Metrolink crash will not have an adverse effect on railfans. I consider myself an a railfan, but not a foamer. One thing that I have been grateful for is to have been able to go up into the cab of a locomotive. My wife for fathers day even bought me a ticket to ride in the cab of Osceola & St Croix Valley Railway. That was the only time I rode in a cab, but have been in the cabs of locomotives of CP,GN,and Milwaukee. One time in1977 my son and I were able to cab a BN SD40-2 while it was stopped for a red signal at 29th& Humbolt in South Minneapolis while it was in the hole for westbound Milwaukee freight 201. My son waved at the passing crew of 201 while sitting in the right hand seat. I know that could'nt happen today.There used to be much more interaction between railroaders and railfans.
Ulrich But it DOES matter...If I get stone drunk and drive my car around without incident then that should be okay too? I can probably drink eight or ten beer and still manage to navigate home without an accident (I haven't done it...just sayin). Now if a cop stops me and pulls my license is that fair? Sure it is...even if I drove properly....even if someone else hits me and it is the other driver's fault..I get nailed for drunk driving. Same goes for the pothead...
But it DOES matter...If I get stone drunk and drive my car around without incident then that should be okay too? I can probably drink eight or ten beer and still manage to navigate home without an accident (I haven't done it...just sayin). Now if a cop stops me and pulls my license is that fair? Sure it is...even if I drove properly....even if someone else hits me and it is the other driver's fault..I get nailed for drunk driving. Same goes for the pothead...
You seem to assuming that the UP conductor was high at the time of the incident. Surely you are intelligent enough to realize that traces of pot last up to four weeks after use; and I don't care how good the pot was, the effects will not linger more than a day after use. So unless he was "Operating Under the Influence" at the time, the evidence that he smoked pot sometime within the last month would seem to have little to do with the event in question.
And you assertion that you could drink 8-10 beers and navigate home shows a level of irresponsibility that does not jibe with your holier-than-thou attitude towards someone who prefers marijuana over alcohol. Neither of them should be used when operating any machinery, and certainly not while driving!
Additionally, you argue that if you got busted it would be fair. How magnaminous you are to accept responsibility for your actions. But what if (as I stated in my original post) the alcohol stayed in your system for three weeks. Would it be fair that you got busted for DUI three weeks after you had your 10 beers? No, of course not. Same goes for pot.
Those text messages are very bad. In addition, at one point there was a comment from the conductor's lawyer to the LA Times that previous to the day of the accident, the conductor had complained to his management regarding Sanchez's use of electronic devices while operating the train. If that turns out to be true, there is a whole lot more negligence than just the engineer.
He was texting while he was supposed to be doing his job...how does that make him a railfan? And I too would say the industry is doing pretty good IF...
UlrichMaybe had a railfan been in the cab on that fateful day at least SOMEBODY would have been alert enough to see the signal. As it was..we have apparently have an engineer who wasn't interested in doing his job or in following the rules and we have a conductor on the UP train of the same low calibre. Maybe the rails should hire railfans... people who have at a least a passing interest in their work tend to have fewer accidents...that makes sense.
Maybe had a railfan been in the cab on that fateful day at least SOMEBODY would have been alert enough to see the signal. As it was..we have apparently have an engineer who wasn't interested in doing his job or in following the rules and we have a conductor on the UP train of the same low calibre. Maybe the rails should hire railfans... people who have at a least a passing interest in their work tend to have fewer accidents...that makes sense.
It sounds to me like the Metrolink engineer was a railfan. I have not followed the story so I do not know if the following is accurate; but if he did not notice the signal because he was texting, it sounds like being a railfan might have been a contributing factor.
UlrichBut both incidents TOGETHER sure peek interest and make one wonder about a possible larger problem. The scope of the investigation should focus on the larger problem as simply proving the obvious (that Sanchez was in the wrong) would be an egregous waste of money. The best outcome of the investigation would be some indication of how bad the problem really is so that preventative measures can be taken to avert further accidents of this type. Everyone already knows Sanchez screwed up... no investigation is needed to see that.
But both incidents TOGETHER sure peek interest and make one wonder about a possible larger problem. The scope of the investigation should focus on the larger problem as simply proving the obvious (that Sanchez was in the wrong) would be an egregous waste of money. The best outcome of the investigation would be some indication of how bad the problem really is so that preventative measures can be taken to avert further accidents of this type. Everyone already knows Sanchez screwed up... no investigation is needed to see that.
Why would two incidents involving three people that happened 21 years apart in a profession employing thousands of people pique anyone's interest? If those were the only times that someone who worked as an engineer or conductor possibly came to work high in the past 21+ years, I would say that the industry is doing pretty good.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
UlrichBut it DOES matter...If I get stone drunk and drive my car around without incident then that should be okay too?
I don't think anybody is saying that the conductor testing positive does not matter. It is just that it does not matter to the crash investigation.
Ulrich But both incidents TOGETHER sure peek interest and make one wonder about a possible larger problem. The scope of the investigation should focus on the larger problem as simply proving the obvious (that Sanchez was in the wrong) would be an egregous waste of money. The best outcome of the investigation would be some indication of how bad the problem really is so that preventative measures can be taken to avert further accidents of this type. Everyone already knows Sanchez screwed up... no investigation is needed to see that.
I disagree. Finding the facts of the crash is exactly what the investigation was supposed to do. From the start, it seemed like the fault had to belong to Sanchez. One might say that it was obvious. But you cannot just assume that the obvious is true in such a crash. It takes an investigation, and conducting one is not a waste of money.
What would be a waste of money and possibly flaw the investigation would be to go looking for larger systemic illegal activity by train crews, and then conclude that what Sanchez did was only what a lot of employees do, and therefore it is the company’s fault for not realizing that they have a widespread problem.
In my opinion, that is exactly what the mainstream media is doing. They make a victim out of Sanchez. They go after their favorite villain; corporations. And they set the stage for more government regulation of the industry.
tdmidget Whoa, Whoa. Let's get sometings straight here. It does't matter if the UP conductor had a joint in his hand at the impact. HIS train followed the signals. The metrolink train did NOT have a " engineer". It had a clown from a company dedicated to providing union busting scabs to school busing and garbage trucking firms. If this had been a BLE organinized operation , would this have happened? If there had been 2 men in the cab would it have happened?
Whoa, Whoa. Let's get sometings straight here. It does't matter if the UP conductor had a joint in his hand at the impact. HIS train followed the signals. The metrolink train did NOT have a " engineer". It had a clown from a company dedicated to providing union busting scabs to school busing and garbage trucking firms. If this had been a BLE organinized operation , would this have happened? If there had been 2 men in the cab would it have happened?
Ulrich Bucyrus Ulrich He tested positive....that makes him a dodo. Do you think UP fired him? I think so.. The UP conductor testing positive for pot is significant, but it would certainly not be newsworthy on its own. It was not a factor in this crash, and covering it with the news of the crash investigation findings seems to me like an attempt to dilute the incredible culpability of Sanchez. It is newsworthy and should have been noted as it further underscores what is possibly a serious problem. Not only do we have an engineer who is text messaging while ignoring signals we also have a conductor on the other train who has tested positive for an illegal substance. Coincidence? Maybe not... The question begs...is inattention and lack of care a serious WIDESPREAD problem on the railroad? That's the bigger question that transcends the investigation into this accident. Check out this link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase,_Maryland_rail_wreck
Bucyrus Ulrich He tested positive....that makes him a dodo. Do you think UP fired him? I think so.. The UP conductor testing positive for pot is significant, but it would certainly not be newsworthy on its own. It was not a factor in this crash, and covering it with the news of the crash investigation findings seems to me like an attempt to dilute the incredible culpability of Sanchez.
Ulrich He tested positive....that makes him a dodo. Do you think UP fired him? I think so..
He tested positive....that makes him a dodo. Do you think UP fired him? I think so..
The UP conductor testing positive for pot is significant, but it would certainly not be newsworthy on its own. It was not a factor in this crash, and covering it with the news of the crash investigation findings seems to me like an attempt to dilute the incredible culpability of Sanchez.
It is newsworthy and should have been noted as it further underscores what is possibly a serious problem. Not only do we have an engineer who is text messaging while ignoring signals we also have a conductor on the other train who has tested positive for an illegal substance. Coincidence? Maybe not... The question begs...is inattention and lack of care a serious WIDESPREAD problem on the railroad? That's the bigger question that transcends the investigation into this accident. Check out this link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase,_Maryland_rail_wreck
But in that case, pot smoking played a central role in the crash, whereas the UP conductor testing positive for pot at the time of the Chatsworth crash is irrelevant to the crash. I understand your points about lack of attention being a larger problem, but one incident of distraction and one incident of pot use is not sufficient to draw any conclusions about the question of a larger problem. From the beginning of this story, I have sensed some tendencies to dilute the blame that falls on Sanchez. And in my opinion, this mention of the conductor testing positive and the implication that the railroad industry has a larger problem with discipline and illegal behavior, of which Sanchez is merely a representative part, is a red herring.
You cant smoke dope and work for a railroad! I heard the conductor Bad Ordered the original SD40 power for this local train to take the new SD70s and didnt report it to whomever..... Of course, that might just be heresay.
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
Ulrich I've stated nothing unfair here...these dodos are responsible for what happened. Period.
I've stated nothing unfair here...these dodos are responsible for what happened. Period.
I beg to differ, sir. The UP conductor had absolutely nothing to do with the crash.
You can rightly call the engineer a dodo, but not the UP conductor.
I have not heard if the positive drug result indicated whether he was under the influence while on duty, or if it was residual from what he was doing on his own time. If the former, then he should be dismissed; if it was the latter, then the result should be irrelevant and thrown out (yes, I know it's in the rules; but that does not make it fair. If alcohol stayed in the system as long as pot does, you can bet that there would never have been a rule G written the way it is today).
Any one or any party that can by any stretch of the imagine be construed as having some responsibility in this is open to a lawsuit..According to their website, Metrolink is a government undertaking.
I have a question for the future - maybe someone will want to take a stab at it?
There will be lawsuits - possibly already. But is Metrolink a private company or a consortium? When the families sue, will they put Metrolink out of business? Any thoughts on how far up the food chain this will go?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.