croteaudd [snip] Yes, we had put very much time into this years and years ago, because back then we were trying to make a buck. But, the railroads didn't even want to take a look. So, we gave up. In light of the fact that railroads are slowly and progressively adopting what we had perceived years ago, they'll probably figure it all out in 30 years ... Just in time to save themselves from being pinned against the wall by the money system. [snip]And, you probably won't have any idea either, at least for decades! Please reread the first paragraph in the message to Bucyrus above. Thanks ...
30 years ago = 1979, which was a different world entirely. Back then, the struggle was merely to survive - innovation was a nice concept, but had to be subordinated to more pressing needs. We didn't even know if the industry was really going to survive, let alone as private or nationalized. (See The Men who Loved Trains, by Rush Loving.) From the technology standpoint, for example, no one would have believed that double-stacks would occur or take over as much as they have, nor Roadrailers, nor concrete ties, nor computer-aided dispatching, nor 2-man crews, nor remote/ radio control units, among others. (Many other aspects have been "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary" though - coal traffic, unit trains, multi-levels, large Class I mergers, etc.)
But it's different now. So if you do have a revolutionary new technology for car sorting, the intellectual ground for adopting it in the railroad industry is much more fertile today, than it was barren back then. I encourage you to actually market and introduce it, instead of just posting about it here.
- Paul North.
Bucyrus The world is not going to beat a path to your door just because you say you have a better mousetrap.
On the other hand, there will people claiming that it is proof that the advancement of mousetrap technology is being blocked by a secret conspiracy among mousetrap manufacturers.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Croteaudd,
Any new idea is always met with some skepticism, and perhaps treated unfairly, but you are not going to convince anybody that you have a better way of sorting cars if you don’t tell them what it is. Are we supposed to just figure it out like you did just because you say there is a better way?
The world is not going to beat a path to your door just because you say you have a better mousetrap.
Murphy Siding,March 9, 2009 11:22 a.m.:You are absolutely correct! However, it is unknown if you think this way or not, but I believe stockholders are only the Queen, whereas the "will of the people" is the King ...Oltmannd,March 9, 2009 11:48 a.m.:I agree. And, that railroad is to be commended. But, if the railroads were able to utilize miracle time saving techniques now, it would be so much easier for everybody.Bucyrus,March 9, 2009 12:19 p.m.:Yes, we had put very much time into this years and years ago, because back then we were trying to make a buck. But, the railroads didn't even want to take a look. So, we gave up. In light of the fact that railroads are slowly and progressively adopting what we had perceived years ago, they'll probably figure it all out in 30 years ... Just in time to save themselves from being pinned against the wall by the money system. Economics does have a very dark side to it, as attested to by history. Has any country lasted to 2,000 years old? I rest my case.How would electric brakes work with sorting facilities? They are just quicker. The statement was intended as an irony ...To PNWRMNW,March 10, 2009 9:53 a.m.:And, you probably won't have any idea either, at least for decades! Please reread the first paragraph in the message to Bucyrus above. Thanks ...
I hope somebody on line knows a lot more about airbrakes than I do. However, it seems to me that on the ABD and newer "triple valves' one can bleed the air out of the brake cylinder without bleeding all of the air out of the auxilary or emergency reservoirs. To just bleed the brake cylinders one would just give the rod a jerk. If one wanted to bleed the air out of the auxilary and/or emergency reservoir as well, he would pull on the nbleed rod for a longer time -- say 15 to 20 seconds. I think the ABD valve came along in the 60s and the the replacement ABDW valve came along in the 70s. I don't know what they are putting on cars today. If I remember correctly an emergency application puts about 50 pounds into the brake cylinder but still leaves 50 pounds in both the auxilary and emergency reservoirs. Thus when air pressure is put back into the system the car's reservoir pressures start from something like 50 pounds, not from zero.
Bottling air brakes on a train has resulted in a number of run aways.
Thank you, Paul. That is what I remembered, but my memory was not good enough to even attempt to describe it. I thought of this when I saw the wheel within a wheel plan for clasifying cars.
I see you have gone back to your old avatar; did the chicken not taste good?
Johnny
The cover of one of these issues was a cow-and-calf hump engine in silhouette at night - it was an almost all-black image.
Regarding Johnny's question: First - a cautionary note for anyone involved with present-day mainline railyard operations, such as RWM and CShaveRR, Don, and others - you might want to be sitting down, and make sure you haven't just sipped any liquids near your computer keyboard, before you read any further. If I recall correctly:
What was proposed resembled something that might have been doodled up by a 6th grader as a model railroad layout, or maybe by a mad electrician, or someone whose vision of an orderly schematic process superseded reality, to wit: The concept plan was essentially a huge circle - miles across - with a series of 4 double-ended yards around its perimeter. One end only of each yard connected to the circle, tangent to the circle for a smooth connection - and the other ends of the yards were outwards, kind of like a giant pinwheel fireworks. It was never completed in that configuration - I believe that only 1 of those yards was built, and that became "Clearing Yard". After that, other events and schemes intervened, and the development of yards around Chicago went along other routes - fortunately.
I have a memory of a Clearing layout that was a bit different from that of all other yards; apparently it did not work as well as the planner(s) thought it would. Does anyone else remember it as it was reported in a history of Clearing in Trains many years ago?
So, apparently, has croteaudd. I still have no idea how he is going to sort cars more quickly than conventional techniques, nor what it will cost, nor the benefits.
Mac
I fold!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Guys, guys, c'mon, you have to see the beauty of this new "sorting" system. It would be a great new management tool that could completely replace six sigma,ISO 9002, One Plan and the Thoroughbred operating plans. The guys in Jacksonville, Norfolk and Fort Worthless would just be orgasmic over it, to say nothing of the gang in Omaha who might get an extra ten minutes for lunch...lol...
First, we would start with the heart of the "Sorter" (Hump Yard). The hump crew would have a few name changes with the hump engineer now known as "Chute". The hump switchman (pin puller) would now be called the "Dealer" and the hump conductor in the tower would be the "Pit Boss". Out bound train crews would be known as "Players". Each car would be assigned a suit and value from duce (2) to Ace (A). The cars would be shuffled (52 pick up) by the trim crew and given to the Chute. Each train crew would have a "draw" and the crew with the best train (hand), after bad orders were set out and replaced with new cars ("draw"), would get out first and get the best route and signal indication followed by the others in order. Shippers could bet on their train crews or railroads on a giant board for lower rates and additional services. A KENO game would be set up for intermodal trains and unit trains would not be subject to betting...
I think we could really do better with this "Sorting" system, don't you??!? It would be at least "Wicked" and maybe even "Fresh"...
Place your bets...
LC
croteauddBucyrus:Reference your March 9 7:52 A.M. post:You are just too smart for my trying to be evasive … Let me throw this at you: Electric brakes would be a smashing success with sorting facilities, however the sorting facilities work!
I don't understand why you are trying to be evasive. It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this.
Electric brakes with sorting facilities???
How would that work?
croteaudd but the railroad will suffer badly when business returns but the railroad cannot handle it for lack of trained crews.
The RRs don't need any new technology to do this. At least one road I know is trying very hard to keep as many jobs on as possible for exactly the reason you state.
croteaudd BaltACD There is only one thing that gets more railroaders back to work! MORE TRAFFIC. BaltACD,Yes, railroads in a monetarily wicked environment do just as you said!What I am suggesting, however, is that profits from new efficiencies temporary be used to retain present trained employees.If the railroad is wicked, the new methodology’s extra profits will be pocketed for themselves; but the railroad will suffer badly when business returns but the railroad cannot handle it for lack of trained crews. Doesn’t my more righteous approach sound a bit more practical?Bucyrus:Reference your March 9 7:52 A.M. post:You are just too smart for my trying to be evasive … Let me throw this at you: Electric brakes would be a smashing success with sorting facilities, however the sorting facilities work!
BaltACD There is only one thing that gets more railroaders back to work! MORE TRAFFIC.
There is only one thing that gets more railroaders back to work!
MORE TRAFFIC.
BaltACD,Yes, railroads in a monetarily wicked environment do just as you said!What I am suggesting, however, is that profits from new efficiencies temporary be used to retain present trained employees.If the railroad is wicked, the new methodology’s extra profits will be pocketed for themselves; but the railroad will suffer badly when business returns but the railroad cannot handle it for lack of trained crews. Doesn’t my more righteous approach sound a bit more practical?Bucyrus:Reference your March 9 7:52 A.M. post:You are just too smart for my trying to be evasive … Let me throw this at you: Electric brakes would be a smashing success with sorting facilities, however the sorting facilities work!
Now, that would certainly depend on who decides what is wicked and what is righteous. Since about 1776, our belief in capitalism has led us to believe that that decision is in the hands of the stockholders that own the companies. If you suggest that should change, you are in the minority.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BaltACDThere is only one thing that gets more railroaders back to work! MORE TRAFFIC.
croteaudd Greetings Bucyrus,Concerning your March 7 post at 8:06 a.m.:Your Q: But I am really curious about your sorting system. Please clarify whether you are referring to a revised methodology using conventional classification yards, or revised hardware that replaces conventional classification yards. My A: The second of the two choices.Your Q: Please explain how you would sort cars without bleeding the brakes.My A: As with a hump yard, tracks would be level and railcars thereon would not initiate movement by themselves with or without line air pressure. Depending on the particular situation, because a railcar’s reservoir would not have been emptied by a carman, but have air in it, air lines could be filled quickly and cars could be on their way in no time.
Greetings Bucyrus,Concerning your March 7 post at 8:06 a.m.:Your Q: But I am really curious about your sorting system. Please clarify whether you are referring to a revised methodology using conventional classification yards, or revised hardware that replaces conventional classification yards. My A: The second of the two choices.Your Q: Please explain how you would sort cars without bleeding the brakes.My A: As with a hump yard, tracks would be level and railcars thereon would not initiate movement by themselves with or without line air pressure. Depending on the particular situation, because a railcar’s reservoir would not have been emptied by a carman, but have air in it, air lines could be filled quickly and cars could be on their way in no time.
croteaudd,
So I understand that you are proposing a car sorting system that replaces conventional classification yards. I would think that any railroader would be most receptive to hearing your ideas. Convincing them might not be so easy, however.
As jeaton has mentioned, in order to keep the air bottled up in individual reservoirs, you would need to close the anglecock on each end of each car before uncoupling them. Then upon recoupling the cars, coupling their air hoses, and opening the anglecocks, air must flow back into the hoses, so there would be some loss in trainline pressure from re-pressurizing the hoses.
If this technique were applied to switching, you would have to consider that some cars stay together during switching. Sometimes cuts of many cars remain together. So your technique of bottling the air would suggest that you would not need to close the anglecocks between cars that will remain coupled. However, hose couplings often leak to varying degrees, so air that is bottled up in cuts of cars will often quickly leak down through the hose couplings and allow the reservoirs to set the brakes. This would suggest that if cars are to be switched, all anglecocks be closed even if some cars will remain coupled.
I would be interested to hear if others know of certain types of moves that are routinely done with the air bottled up. I have very little experience with it.
croteaudd Your Q: Please explain how you would sort cars without bleeding the brakes.My A: As with a hump yard, tracks would be level and railcars thereon would not initiate movement by themselves with or without line air pressure. Depending on the particular situation, because a railcar’s reservoir would not have been emptied by a carman, but have air in it, air lines could be filled quickly and cars could be on their way in no time.
Your Q: Please explain how you would sort cars without bleeding the brakes.My A: As with a hump yard, tracks would be level and railcars thereon would not initiate movement by themselves with or without line air pressure. Depending on the particular situation, because a railcar’s reservoir would not have been emptied by a carman, but have air in it, air lines could be filled quickly and cars could be on their way in no time.
Sorry, but if you want to leave the reservoirs charged you have to close the anglecocks at each end of the car before you separate the cars. Otherwise you get brakes firmly applied. Of course you could move the cars about with the brakes on and that would certainly put people to work changing out wheel sets.
zardoz Railway Man zardoz jeaton Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double. Not possible. The trains, at least during 'rush hour', are generally running on each other's signals as it is. The only way to add more trains would be to add more tracks. I'm pretty sure Jay was being sarcastic. RWM
Railway Man zardoz jeaton Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double. Not possible. The trains, at least during 'rush hour', are generally running on each other's signals as it is. The only way to add more trains would be to add more tracks. I'm pretty sure Jay was being sarcastic. RWM
zardoz jeaton Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double. Not possible. The trains, at least during 'rush hour', are generally running on each other's signals as it is. The only way to add more trains would be to add more tracks.
jeaton Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double.
Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double.
I'm pretty sure Jay was being sarcastic.
RWM
Wasn't intended as such. Actually I hadn't thought about the probable need for more track to double the schedule. My point was and is that a mass transportation service needs to get together a large bunch of people or freight to get a cost that will make the service competitive with the the methods of moving one's and two's directly from the very start of the trip to the final destination. I use people movement to illustrate the concept as I think it is somewhat less mysterious than railroad freight operations and more often already understood by those interested in railroads.
Greetings Bucyrus,Concerning your March 7 post at 8:06 a.m.:Your Q: But I am really curious about your sorting system. Please clarify whether you are referring to a revised methodology using conventional classification yards, or revised hardware that replaces conventional classification yards. My A: The second of the two choices.Your Q: Please explain how you would sort cars without bleeding the brakes.My A: As with a hump yard, tracks would be level and railcars thereon would not initiate movement by themselves with or without line air pressure. Depending on the particular situation, because a railcar’s reservoir would not have been emptied by a carman, but have air in it, air lines could be filled quickly and cars could be on their way in no time. Furthers:It must be remembered that this topic was originally slanted towards finding ways of saving railroad jobs. A sorting facility in itself would not have immediate labor benefits, as it would require much time for technical design and construction.
RWM, you have some 'splainin' to do regarding the new avatar--is it worth trying?
Railway Man Words for once fail me! RWM
Words for once fail me!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zardozjeaton Does anyone think it would make any sense if Chicago's Metra Service suddenly doubled the frequency of its trains? The trains could be half the size and might have slightly faster schedules, but the cost per rider would certainly be greater since the total number of crew personnel would just about double. Not possible. The trains, at least during 'rush hour', are generally running on each other's signals as it is. The only way to add more trains would be to add more tracks.
MP173 United flies to Moline, either out of Chicago or Denver...or at least they did. ed
United flies to Moline, either out of Chicago or Denver...or at least they did.
ed
Ed -
Thanks. So far I have found that Delta/Northworst and Air Tran seem to fly there too. I'll have to start prospecting for some flights.
CShaveRR Dyslexics of the world--untie! LC, I wouldn't mind meeting you if you happen to be in Chicagoland again, with a little better transport. Or you, Paul--or Norris! Most of the people I've met through this Forum I'm pleased to have made their acquaintance, and if I don't hold the record, I'm pretty close to it.
Dyslexics of the world--untie!
LC, I wouldn't mind meeting you if you happen to be in Chicagoland again, with a little better transport. Or you, Paul--or Norris! Most of the people I've met through this Forum I'm pleased to have made their acquaintance, and if I don't hold the record, I'm pretty close to it.
Carl -
I'll see what I can do. Best bet will be later in the year. Hopefully, things will pick up a bit by then...
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