......Interesting stuff. Thank you.
Quentin
The Norfolk Southern Exhibit Car was in Hendersonville yesterday. Here is a link to a photo from the local paper.
I wonder if any rumors were heard . . . ?
I rode up to Landrum yesterday to see if they had done anything yet. Unfortunately the dirt pile was still there and the rails were still cut. Keeping my Spartanburg scanner on though cause when I hear them call that a work train is heading that way, I'm gonna head there too!
TRDevlDog I rode up to Landrum yesterday to see if they had done anything yet. Unfortunately the dirt pile was still there and the rails were still cut. Keeping my Spartanburg scanner on though cause when I hear them call that a work train is heading that way, I'm gonna head there too!
Thank you for checking, but I doubt the rails will be connected before December, and a work train shouldn't be needed.
I am still wondering about the rules and regulations regarding the status of the line and reconnecting the rails.
Instead, I would be keeping an eye on the two grade crossings in Landrum. I do not believe the current condition of the Hwy. 14 crossing will suffice for a train. It will be interesting to see if the crossings are brought back into full service (i.e., crossing arms reinstalled), or only the flangeways repaired. When that work is underway, it will also be interesting to see if the crossings/flangeways northwest of Landrum through Tryon are brought up to standard as well. The latter is doubtful, but we will see.
Have been reading some of the "Other"[make that: other'Saluda' Threads here], referencing the Saluda Grade. ( Last week on a fast trip to Salisbury, I was able to nick through Saluda, for a brief look around.) It seems to be a topic of on-going interest, not only to those who live in WNC but others as well.
Some time back there was a discussion as to why the NS (or nee: Southern did not just abandon or sell off the 'W' line. My belief is that that decision is rooted in past political actions concerning the Spartanburg& Asheville RR. see:
[ sinpped from this link: ] http://www.carolana.com/NC/Transportation/railroads/nc_rrs_spartanburg_asheville.html
"...One year later, the line finally reached Hendersonville - a distance of twenty-one (21) miles, and the money ran out. A bill was introduced to the NC State Legislature to forfeit the charter if construction did not speed up. This spurred new and increased support for the railroad on both ends, and resulted in the reorganization of the company into the Asheville & Spartanburg Railroad in 1881, managed by the Richmond & Danville Railroad, which completed the line in 1886..."
Then there was a Thread this past August (2012) that has links about the creation of an Inland Container Port in the area of Greenville/Spartanburg (GSP) @http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/209355/2291615.aspx#2291615
The above is a proposal that was intended to move truck traffic away from the congestion at Charleston and was going to utilize Gov't funds via a 'TIGER' grant.
Apparently, the supposition that the line is 'owned' by NCDOT and leased from that public entity is partially true(?) See Statement posted by "...Posted by crescent20
I have never read or heard anything about North Carolina owning the line. Property owners along the line claim that should Norfolk Southern abandon the right-of-way, it goes to the adjoining property owners.
I have yet to find evidence that North Carolina owns the W line. Nowhere is it mentioned that they own the line (but several others across the state are mentioned), and they make it quite clear that the NCRR is public and leased to Norfolk Southern. A couple of sources I found by Googling make no mention of this.
Sixth Annual Report of the Board of Railroad Commissioners of North Carolina, for the Year Ending December 31, 1896
A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company (1901)
"As the property was about to come to sale the stockholders of the Spartanburg and Asheville Railroad Company, who were largely municipalities, became concerned at the threatened wiping out of their investment, and procured an Act of North Carolina entitled:
'An act for the relief of the stockholders of the Spartanburg and Asheville Railroad Company.'
Ratified March 12, 1881. Laws of North Carolina 1881, ch. 353, p. 586
by which they were authorized to purchase the property at the sale in the Tommey suit and reorganize as a corporation under the style of Charleston and Asheville Railroad Company, but as they did not purchase, this Act never became effective."
I believe with the upcoming Panama Canal expansion and Charleston harbor deepening, Norfolk Southern is planning for intermodal stack trains from Charleston to Cincinnati. The straightest shot is Charleston-Columbia-Asheville-Knoxville-Cincinnati.
The seven(?) tunnels along the S-Line from Salisbury to Asheville probably do not meet the vertical clearance requirements of double-stacks, and would require costly upgrading. Not to mention this is a longer route. Of course, there may be vertical clearance issues with overpasses along the W-Line as well. Still, the repairs to the W-Line are likely much, much cheaper than raising tunnel ceilings. Additionally, CSX may not be able to run double-stacks over the Clinchfield Loops because of the same tunnel clearance issues. NS may see the opportunity to secure a big chunk of the intermodal market share in this region via the W-Line.
Going UP Saluda has never been an issue in the age of diesel-electric locomotives. Coming down the grade with an empty intermodal will be child's play compared to the unit coal trains to Belmont.
The return on investment for the line has been mentioned several times. Do you have any idea how many THOUSANDS of dollars NS has spent to keep this line maintained for the past eleven years, to have ZERO traffic go over it. Now that is a poor ROI. If NS never intended to use the line again, it would show. Even if it means a high initial investment to get the line back in service, their return may be seen in other forms, such as additional capacity on other lines and more direct routing for time-sensitive (intermodal) shipments.
I'd love to hear some more input from those in the industry! All my ranting is pure speculation.
It would seem that the question coould be --- Will operating expenses and more importantly transit time from Spartanburg - Harriman Tn be less thru Asheville - Knoxville or thru Atlanta - Chatanooga ? Can Anyone give us the track mile figures and old passenger train times for these 2 routes ?
dubch87 I have never read or heard anything about North Carolina owning the line. Property owners along the line claim that should Norfolk Southern abandon the right-of-way, it goes to the adjoining property owners. I have yet to find evidence that North Carolina owns the W line. Nowhere is it mentioned that they own the line (but several others across the state are mentioned), and they make it quite clear that the NCRR is public and leased to Norfolk Southern. A couple of sources I found by Googling make no mention of this. Sixth Annual Report of the Board of Railroad Commissioners of North Carolina, for the Year Ending December 31, 1896 A History of the Legal Development of the Railroad System of Southern Railway Company (1901) "As the property was about to come to sale the stockholders of the Spartanburg and Asheville Railroad Company, who were largely municipalities, became concerned at the threatened wiping out of their investment, and procured an Act of North Carolina entitled: 'An act for the relief of the stockholders of the Spartanburg and Asheville Railroad Company.' Ratified March 12, 1881. Laws of North Carolina 1881, ch. 353, p. 586 by which they were authorized to purchase the property at the sale in the Tommey suit and reorganize as a corporation under the style of Charleston and Asheville Railroad Company, but as they did not purchase, this Act never became effective."
DUBCH87:
In regards to the ownership of an abandoned railroad ROW by adjacent land owners.
[And as an aside:]
I can't speak to specific conditions in North Carolina, but out here in Kansas I live near an abandoned line ( MoPac; nee: Denver, Memphis and Atlantic RR, charted in 1878, and originally surveyed as a narrow gauge line.) It seems that ownership reversion depends on the Type of Deed of Original Ownership by the Railroad.
Some deeds do call for revision to adjacent landowners, BUT in some other cases the ownership remains in the hands of the owning railroad; said property can be sold by agents of the railroad, or as a product of a bankruptcy action. Again, it is dependent on the type of original deed as registered with the County Registrar of Deeds. [Read here: much research in old title record books! ]
Mud Chicken and Paul D. North can most likely fill your ear on this aspect of time consuming, interpretation and necessary research. Do NOT assume that the adjacent landowner gets the ROW.
There are lawyers out there who get wealthy proving this mistake by court actions; an assumption that is taken for granted by some adjacent landowners and property owners. Not to mention folks who own facilities adjacent to railroads who find out they do not own that land those spur tracks are on by their facility.
I am pretty certain that there are documents that relate to the trail of ownership ownership of the embargoed "W" line; documentation that most likely date back to the bankruptcy of the Spartanburg and Asheville Railroad ( its' subsequent ownership by the Richmond and Danville RR (Later Southern Rwy).
I posted some earlier links in this Thread that aluded to "Political Shenanigans" in the late 1800's that centered on this S&A RR line over Saluda Mountain. I think I remember that there was an addendum issued in that context that said that the link (railroad) must be kept open between the Port of Charleston and Asheville as a key function of ownership ( or custody) [lease(?) ] of what we now refer to as the "W" line over Saluda Mountain to Asheville.
Even thought it is common knowledge that the "W' Line is embargoed since about 2000. When you check out the NS Corp System Map it does show as a serviceable link in their system:
@ http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/map.html
as well as on the NC RR Company Network Map (NCDOT) @ http://www.ncrr.com/nc-rail-maps/nc-rail-network/
dubch87Clinchfield Loops
Russell
Well guys, I decided to ride up to Landrum today to see if any work has been started. Unfortunately, the mound was still in place, and both of the crossings the Exhibit Car will travel over have not had any work done. This is discouraging, but time will soon tell as Dec. 6th is coming quicker than we know.
-Phillip
I've recently heard from a reliable source (still third hand) that CSX is in talks with NS about trackage rights on the Spartanburg - Asheville W line. Kinda makes sense given your thorough assessment of tunnel limitations on other nearby lines. As far as power going up Saluda, it is certainly available, but excess pressure on the couplers on the highest level of the grade may still limit the number of cars going up, unless a DPU unit is kept at Melrose, like the old days. If I know NS, that line will not reopen unless the ROI is more than the accountants calculate as acceptable, given the higher up front cost of fixing the wash out east of Melrose (if they have to repair it alone) and other MOW work, plus ongoing maintenance that may be higher than what would be found on similar traveled lines. By the way, in addition to the expansions of the Panama Canal and the Port of Charleston, the new Inland Port at Greer, S.C. (slated to open in 2014), will play a major role in the distribution of NS traffic along the Crescent and I-80 Corridors. There will definitely be more rail traffic on the W line between Charleston and Greer, S.C. It is estimated that 50 K trucks (published figure) a year on I-26 will be eliminated between Spartanburg and Charleston!
Frank Ezell I've recently heard from a reliable source (still third hand) that CSX is in talks with NS about trackage rights on the Spartanburg - Asheville W line.
Pardon me for being highly skeptical of this idea, but why would CSX possibly want trackage rights into Asheville? CSX has nowhere to go once they get to Asheville. The nearest other CSX line, the former Clinchfield, does not go through Asheville.
Doesn't CSX have a connection in Knoxville? Are there other main freight corridors that could be a reason that CSX would want to connect to that would be quicker than the old Clinchfield?
If the objective is for CSX to get goods from the vast Ohio Valley region to Charleston S.C. a better way than it can now, then it does make sense to look at the possibility of applying for trackage rights over the NS W line from Asheville N.C. all the way to Spartanburg and Columbia, S.C. (it appears CSX already has trackage rights from Columbia to Charleston on NS). Specifically, in looking at the NS and CSX maps, there appear to be NS and CSX interchanges at Johnson City and Kingsport TN, where NS goes to Asheville. The CSX tunnel in downtown Spartanburg S.C., where CSX has a major interchange with 6 current NS lines, would block the transport of stack trains, for now, for passage to Savannah, Columbia, and Charleston. However, if NS would allow trackage rights to CSX on the W line to Columbia, then mission accomplished for CSX from the Ohio Valley region to Charleston, S.C. Another possibility could be to construct a CSX/NS interchange at Carlisle, S.C., where NS crosses over the CSX Charlotte, Monroe, and Atlanta line, thus giving CSX more flexibility in getting goods to and from Charleston and other regions in their system. These are simple observations from a novice at this sort of thing and none of it may be feasible. Only the railroads know for sure!
If CSX could get trackage rights on the "W" line what will NS get in exchange? One route might be savannah - jacksonville ? Other routes?.
Of course it could be haulage rights such as CSX now does for BNSF birmingham - atlanta (fairburn / -- )
csxns says containers go over the Clinchfield loops. I have never seen or heard this, but do not know for certain. Can anyone verify this?
Also, with all the operating rules and procedures for Saluda, I highly doubt NS will let anyone other than NS crew traverse that section of the W-Line. Perhaps they would charge CSX a hefty sum to transport intermodal trains using NS motive power and crew, but I don't think you'll ever see CSX power operating on this line.
Here is a great training video on Saluda Southern Railway produced in the early 80's.
watch?v=9IABM8UPplY
Yes, NS crews would definitely have to operate the CSX trains not only on Saluda but elsewhere on trackage rights. I think NS would charge a profitable fee for this, which would not be unreasonable since all Class 1's do this in certain locations already. However, CSX may still see the advantage. A previous blog stated that tunnels on the loops (north of Marion, NC) could not handle stack trains. In summary, I'll also believe CSX trains over Saluda when I see it!.
I was at boy scout road on CSX north of Bostic Yard and that location is about 30 so miles south of Marion NC the train was heading North it had K Line Hamburg-Sud and other containers stacked two high.
csxnsYes CSX runs double stacks on the loops only the International Containers.
CSX groups their lines into 4 clearance groups for doublestack purposes. Some lines are NO doublestack, then Doublestack 1 is 18' 02" ATR, Doublestack 2 is 19' 02" ATR, and Doublestack 3 is 20' 02" ATR. ATR means "above top of rail", so you need to add the height of the railcar platform to the height of two containers to determine what will fit. You can check all this for yourself by viewing the map here:
http://csx.com/share/wwwcsx_mura/assets/File/Customers/Services_and_Partners/Dimensional-Clearance/11-4-11/ps98sys1111D.pdf
The former Clinchfield route is in Intermodal 1, 18' 02" ATR. Since International (marine) containers are shorter than hi-cube domestic containers, the marine boxes stacked are OK on the Clichfield, doublestack hi-cubes domestic boxes are not, and mixed (one domestic stacked on a marine box) also are not acceptable.
Rader Sidetrackthe marine boxes stacked are OK on the Clichfield
Thanks for the link to the video. Was it SOP for a road foreman to run the train downgrade?Ed
I've never seen CSX run on NS from Columbia to Charleston, but I don't want to say it never has happened. CSX has their own line to Chucktown from Columbia. Also, the crossing at Carlise would be somewhat hard to make a viable connection from one to the other. Again, I don't want to say it could not be done, but it would involve a good deal of work to get away from the roads in the area.
The video of the run down Saluda is great. Why would the road foreman of engines take over for the engineer for the run down the hill? I would think that the engineer would be capable of getting the train down the hill just as well as the road foreman of engines.
csxns I was at boy scout road on CSX north of Bostic Yard and that location is about 30 so miles south of Marion NC the train was heading North it had K Line Hamburg-Sud and other containers stacked two high.
Cool deal. I wasn't doubting it, I have just never seen containers through there before.
MP173 Thanks for the link to the video. Was it SOP for a road foreman to run the train downgrade?Ed
I think it was posted somewhere in this thread that it was SOP for the unit coal trains, but may not have been required for the lighter manifests? They may have been required for all descending trains, so don't quote me on that. Having a Road Foreman on every train was an additional operating cost that added up.
Sam1 The video of the run down Saluda is great. Why would the road foreman of engines take over for the engineer for the run down the hill? I would think that the engineer would be capable of getting the train down the hill just as well as the road foreman of engines.
As far as I know, this procedure continued until the line went inactive in 2001. My guess would be that it is a liability/safety issue, since the Road Foreman of Engines has gained the experience necessary to attain that position.
Also, something to note about the video. I'm sure you noticed that the train stopped before the crest to set retainers, then began the descent at speed. I thought the trains always stopped with half the train on each side of the crest to set retainers before beginning the descent. Perhaps this was a later rule? If I recall, a train ended up on the runaway track at Melrose around 1985 (without derailing, and the last incident). Perhaps that is when the half-half procedure began?
I also thought it was pretty amazing that Saluda was such a hassle they used computer modeling of the forces exerted on the train from the grade 30 YEARS AGO. It is amazing they ran so much freight over the hill with so few incidents, and it remained in service as long as it did.
Five weeks from today, the NS Exhibit Car will be in Landrum. We will wait and see what happens.
Quoting Rocket2go " Specifically, in looking at the NS and CSX maps, there appear to be NS and CSX interchanges at Johnson City and Kingsport TN, where NS goes to Asheville."
Unless NS has built into Kingsport recently, Johnson City and Frisco (on the Bulls Gap-Gate City line) are the CSX-NS interchanges in that area. Also, New Line (near Morristown) is the junction for the line to Asheville. There was, and may still be, a low level line between Bulls Gap and Leadvale (on the line to Asheville), which bypasses Morristown.
In early January of 1958, I was treated to a detour between Johnson City and Bristol by way of Frisco and Moccasin Gap-Gate City on the Tenneseean, riding backwards from Johnson City to Gate City.
Johnny
Connecting from the CSX Spartanburg Sub to the NS in Spartanburg could be done without going through the Spartanburg tunnel by constructing a new connection south of the tunnel. The land is there and unused, and there aren't any roads that would interfere. It would take some fill work (not a whole lot--the approach for the old ACL connection could be used for part of the way) and a (new) bridge over the track that runs from the tunnel to the old Piedmont & Northern. At a guess, such a new connection might be cheaper than enlarging the tunnel, not to mention being a lot smoother operationally.But that's assuming CSX actually *wants* to use the W line to bypass the Clinchfield loops, which I have to say I'm not entirely convinced of. After all, that new container traffic out of Charleston is coming off ships, right? So it'll be in marine containers, which already fit through the tunnels on the Clinchfield loops.
Peace,--Peter
I was in Landrum, SC day before yesterday; Sunday Nov. 25, 2012.
The Norfolk Southern Exhibit Car is scheduled to be in Landrum on December 6. Next Thursday!
The earth mound covering the track at M.P. W-45 is STILL IN PLACE. This is approximately 1 mile East of the depot site, where the car is to be parked.
Maybe they will do some work this week????
Joe the Photog I've never seen CSX run on NS from Columbia to Charleston, but I don't want to say it never has happened. CSX has their own line to Chucktown from Columbia. Also, the crossing at Carlise would be somewhat hard to make a viable connection from one to the other. Again, I don't want to say it could not be done, but it would involve a good deal of work to get away from the roads in the area.
There used to be a connection at Carlisle, SC. (also on the 'W' line, but between Spartanburg and Columbia, not the portion over Saluda)
The connection track led off of the NS siding at Carlisle, down the hill and across SC Highway 72 to the CSX main track where the old Seaboard Air Line depot was located. CSX has a maintenance-of-way shed there now. It was westbound on NS to northbound on CSX. Back in the 1980's and early 90's we used to set off cars there (on the interchange track) nearly every night for CSX to deliver to Cone Mills about a mile or so North of Carlisle. I think it was removed in the mid 90's.
I don't think it would make any sense to restore this track as it relates to CSX possibly using the Saluda route. CSX trains would have to enter the NS siding at Carlisle (heading south [CSX] then east [NS]). This would then require a complete run-around move at Carlisle in order for the train to change direction to head west on NS towards Spartanburg / Saluda.
railfanjohn I was in Landrum, SC day before yesterday; Sunday Nov. 25, 2012. The Norfolk Southern Exhibit Car is scheduled to be in Landrum on December 6. Next Thursday! The earth mound covering the track at M.P. W-45 is STILL IN PLACE. This is approximately 1 mile East of the depot site, where the car is to be parked. Maybe they will do some work this week????
I was also in Landrum on Sunday and saw the same. Hopefully readers of this site are going on December 6th to see the Exhibit Car, and they will report back what the situation is for the line.
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