TRDevlDogFrom the pictures in the article it appears there is another washout that is forming at Slaughter Pen Cut.
There is, but it's on the grade between Sand Cut and the timing section before Melrose. I believe someone mentioned this one a few pages back, but I hadn't found pictures until recently. That brings the total number of washouts to four: Vaughn's Creek, Horshoe Curve, big one near the trestle, and on the grade.
Here is a link to a set of photos on flickr from October 2013 that really highlights the degradation of the line (not my pictures).
.....Quite sad for rail fans, especially this piece of very "different" ROW that by reading what info appears, and "between the lines", I'd say Saluda, as we who were at it when the structure of it was still intact....Will not see anymore scheduled action on this famous "Hill".
Perhaps the next action, sadly...will be the taking up of the rails, etc...When, who knows.
Quentin
TRDevlDoghttp://www.wlos.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wlos_railroad-jobs-jeopardy-15904.shtml ....... Interesting news out of Asheville. If I read it and interpreted the video correctly that move would totally cut off Saluda on the north end.
Made the link work (just highlight it after you paste, and then click on the icon that looks like a chain link).
Well, that certainly is big news. To summarize for those that don't want to watch the video:
Norfolk Southern confirmed an effort to sell or lease 93-miles of rail line in Buncombe, Henderson and Transylvania counties.
No mention of the "out-of-service" section over the grade.
Heavy accent in the reporters speech, but I think he said Saluda? So possible sale or lease to a shortline. How about a tourist line in the Saluda section? Someone would need some $$ to fix the washouts. Are there any newer videos of it on Youtube?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Woodchips to paper mills in Sylva and Canton
Out-of-service
Unit coal to Duke Energy plant, locals
So, is this bad news or good news for Saluda? NCDOT has a history of preserving rail corridors and providing funding. Could a short line get public funding to restore the line and get woodchips up the grade again when NS is too cheap to do it? Doubtful because of the cost/benefit, but who knows. This is assuming NS gives it up. They may continue sitting on it and let it to turn into a forest.
http://www.ncbytrain.org/projects/preservation.html
See this article from TRAINS "NewsWire"
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2014/05/Watco%20wins%20bid%20for%20North%20Carolina%20branches.aspx
I Think this might be the final nail in the coffin for the famous Saluda Grade. This indicates, if nothing else, that Norfolk Southern will never again use Saluda as a through route. (just my opinion)
My dad lives halfway between Campobello and Landrum. Yesterday (Sat 5/31) I went up to visit him. When I crossed the tracks on Landrum Mill Rd (State S-42-936) there was a NS truck at the tracks and a worker was doing something on the tracks with a piece of equipment connected to the rails. From the looks of the rails there has not been any traffic here in a while?? The only business this far north is the wood-chip plant about 2000' past the crossing.
On the way back I snapped a few pics.
These two on each side of the crossing show some new(?) wires attached to the tracks
The last one shows some ties about 400' north of the crossing. Maybe they have been doing some track work here?
beechdriver My dad lives halfway between Campobello and Landrum. Yesterday (Sat 5/31) I went up to visit him. When I crossed the tracks on Landrum Mill Rd (State S-42-936) there was a NS truck at the tracks and a worker was doing something on the tracks with a piece of equipment connected to the rails. From the looks of the rails there has not been any traffic here in a while?? The only business this far north is the wood-chip plant about 2000' past the crossing. On the way back I snapped a few pics. These two on each side of the crossing show some new(?) wires attached to the tracks The last one shows some ties about 400' north of the crossing. Maybe they have been doing some track work here?
Working on a Saturday, I'd say the crossing signal was malfunctioning and had been reported. Someone else in the know might can say, but perhaps one of the wires had become broken and the circuit was open/closed(?), causing the signals to activate and remain activated.
They did track work a little over two years ago from Hayne to Landrum, and nobody can figure out why. The word on here is that Capps Brothers hasn't been shipping woodchips by rail for several years now, and the rust on the rails backs that up. Trains had been slow-ordered due to the tracks' poor condition, so perhaps NS thought they could get Capps back as a customer if they rehabilitated the line. It didn't work.
You can see those same ties from May 2013 at this link: http://goo.gl/maps/QXcqt and even more ties in May 2012 here: http://goo.gl/maps/1G2yw . I'm not sure why they left those.
It looks like the same blue paint has been there since 2012 as well http://goo.gl/maps/Vd1nv
NS just announce the sale of the line from East Flat Rock to Asheville to WATCO. That pretty much puts the nail in Saluda's coffin.
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/short_lines_regionals/news/Watco-to-purchase-three-North-Carolina-branch-lines-from-NS--40879
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Let's hypothesize for a minute. IF WATCO were to acquire the section between East Flat Rock and Landrum (let's ignore the cost of restoration for a moment), they would likely regain Capps Brothers as a customer and be able to transport woodchips directly to Evergreen Packaging in Canton in less than a week.
It wouldn't be that difficult to operate over the grade; empty hoppers down and a dozen, give or take, loaded hoppers that could be pulled up the grade in one haul on the return trip. So, the idea that trains could operate on the grade again is feasible. The problem is the cost of restoring the line to operable condition.
I'm curious to know if NS doesn't want to sell, WATCO doesn't want to buy, or neither. There may be more to this in the future.Or maybe WATCO will allow through-traffic by NS, and NS will take the income from the purchase to restore Saluda and begin routing intermodal via Asheville. Maybe NS wasn't crazy for performing the track work south of Landrum after all...
It appears after twelve-and-a-half years of no trains that NS has stopped maintaining Saluda. No doubt this coincides with the sale of the line between Asheville and East Flat Rock to WATCO. NS has applied herbicide to the ROW up until this year. I have never seen it in this condition before, and this is after only one summer. Five years from now and you won't be able to tell a railroad was ever here.
I drive through Campobello on my way home sometimes. The rails on the W Line are rusted over, so absolutely nothing has been using these tracks. However, the line is virtually weed-free and well-maintained. The last train I know of to use the line was the NS exhibit train, which stopped at the Inman Harvest Festival last fall.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
GP-9_Man11786 I drive through Campobello on my way home sometimes. The rails on the W Line are rusted over, so absolutely nothing has been using these tracks. However, the line is virtually weed-free and well-maintained. The last train I know of to use the line was the NS exhibit train, which stopped at the Inman Harvest Festival last fall.
You can take this to the bank...IF WATCO thought they could make the embargoed segment of the W Line worthwhile, it would be seeing traffic...
The 'mountain to climb' is the two slide areas.. I'd leave that to the MOW Engineers around here ,but from the pictures posted on this THREAD, and others concerning The Grade, you can bet it would be in the multiples of six to seven figures to restore and re-engineer the ROW.
...
Even though no trains use the line through Campobello, it is still an active rail line and is maintained as such. Even the out-of-service segment had been maintained relatively well to have not had any traffic for more than a decade.
I noticed at the start of July all the vegetation growing on the line through Landrum, Tryon, and Saluda. I saw even taller vegetation this weekend and decided to check out Melrose. Again, it has never been in this condition since trains stopped in 2001. You can check out my pictures a few pages back from June 2013 of the washout at the Vaughn Creek fill to see what I mean.
samfp1943 You can take this to the bank...IF WATCO thought they could make the embargoed segment of the W Line worthwhile, it would be seeing traffic...
If NS even offered to sell the section over Saluda to WATCO. I'm not sure they did, and NS still retains ownership. When NS sold the northern section of the W Line to WATCO, they knew they would never run another train on the line, so they have no reason to continue maintaining the section to Landrum. I doubt they will ever give up the line either, and will let the line continue to rust in place.
Tryon averages 62 inches of rain annually (92 inches fell last year). The line will be overrun with vegetation very fast. I just find it sad to see it disappear like this.
DUBCH87 wrote:
"...If NS even offered to sell the section over Saluda to WATCO. I'm not sure they did, and NS still retains ownership. When NS sold the northern section of the W Line to WATCO, they knew they would never run another train on the line, so they have no reason to continue maintaining the section to Landrum. I doubt they will ever give up the line either, and will let the line continue to rust in place.
Tryon averages 62 inches of rain annually (92 inches fell last year). The line will be overrun with vegetation very fast. I just find it sad to see it disappear like this..."
Why do that? The cost is low, and as we’ve seen with Bakken oil and frac sand, the next wave of freight traffic could come from almost anywhere. Technology can change the game, mergers can change the game, and developments around the world can change the game. If anything changes in the next few years, it will be East Coast shipping thanks to the widened Panama Canal; does the thought of intermodal trains on Saluda intrigue you?
Argument against it: It just gets more expensive by the day to rebuild the line. If traffic does materialize, there are other, easier ways to go that could benefit from laying double track.
Odds of it happening: 6 in 10.
2. Abandon it and make it a rail trail.
Why do that? Nobody is going to want to run mainline trains on a 4.7 percent grade any more. Nobody is desperate enough to move freight on such a difficult line to run. Saluda’s time has passed.
Argument against it: When it’s gone, it’s gone. The route won’t return and the opportunity is extinct. Also, my good friend, railroad book author Matt Bumgarner, tells me the line through Polk County, N.C. is a mixture of easements and purchased land, so that makes it difficult to piece together a through trail. If it’s abandoned, the easements revert to the land owners.
Odds of it happening: 4 in 10. [snipped]
Seems that Jim Wrinn make a very reasonable argument as to why the NS has held on to the W Line....If in the future circumstances find it a meaningful routing it is there and could be rebuilt/reengineered to suit a need. It would seem to make good sense not to do away with an ROW that is still in one piece, even if it is in dire need of help.
At any rate it is still "Fan" speculation as to what the Official Line of thought is in the NS HQ. Mergers and International Shipping can play a big part in this scenario.
If they can restore a Big Boy they can reopen Saluda Grade.
Is there a GPS coodordinate we can use to find it?
About 35°13’20.50” N, 82°20’50.37” W
Fifteen years ago today, the last regular service freight train ran up the Saluda Grade. The line has been railbanked/out-of-service since 2003. Norfolk Southern still maintains ownership of the line, and the line has not been officially abandoned. The company has stated in the past that it does not intend to abandon the line, but will continue to hold onto it should future traffic patterns warrant its reopening. While rumors of reopening have come and gone over the past fifteen years, there has been no indication that this will ever happen. Below is a timeline with links of the events that have occurred over the past fifteen years.
With its staggeringly steep grade, stringent operating procedures, and high operating costs, it’s a surprise that the Saluda Grade remained open as long as it did. With the unprecedented decline in coal volumes over the past few years, and with no other sources of revenue in the picture, the line appears to be in a position to never reopen.
Railfan friends and I stopped at Saluda to see the tracks which are still there, but the crossing is bagged. It doesn't look that steep at the summit but you can see where it starts to go downhill. Saw pics of wrecks on the Grade, so it was wicked and I doubt if they will ever reopen it.
We also stopped to see Old Fort Loops and just missed a NS freight on the Loops. It was coming into the town when we arrived. NCTM is worth visiting, so we had an enjoyable time in NC, my first time in the state. also rode Great Smokies Scenic train.
Does anyone know when this industry at Inman Mills, SC ceased rail service? I read somewhere that the industry itself closed in 2001, but I can't find the date of closure for rail service.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/626844841855109727/
Local communities are starting another push for Rails to Trails. Their points are that it has been 15+ years since any rail activity and the line will likely never see traffic again, part of the line has already been sold, and NS is looking to downgrade or sell numerous lines in the coming years.
Saluda discusses rails to trails project at commission meeting
dubch87 Local communities are starting another push for Rails to Trails. Their points are that it has been 15+ years since any rail activity and the line will likely never see traffic again, part of the line has already been sold, and NS is looking to downgrade or sell numerous lines in the coming years. Saluda discusses rails to trails project at commission meeting
Seems as if the Local Communities, and their Political entities are possibly asking for something they might regret at a later date ?
THe NS's "W" line seems to qualify as a candidate for Rail-Banking, and a Rails to Trails Project. It is definitely an Interstate facility.
For starters, Here is something to read: FTL: "...The Rails-to-Trails Act ("Trails Act") provides localities and nonprofits with a useful tool for transforming dormant rail rights-of-way (“ROWs”) into recreational trails. 16 USC § 1247(d).[1] The Act streamlines the legal complexity of trail conversion by providing a clear and systemic framework for the railroad to transfer ownership of the corridor to a third party sponsor organization (known as the “interim trail manager”). Only a ROW in the interstate, common carrier rail network (hereinafter, a “common carrier line”) [2] is eligible for trail conversion under the procedures of the Trails Act. 16 USC § 1247(d).[3] All railbanked ROWs are subject to reactivation for rail service,[4] so potential trail sponsors should consider this risk when drafting the railbanking agreement and investing in the trail corridor. Finally, railbanking is a voluntary transaction between the railroad and the trail manager—nothing in the statute obligates the railroad to negotiate or agree to railbanking.[5] However, because the Act allows railroads to shed property tax liability without foreclosing the possibility of future rail service along the corridor, it is often an attractive proposition for inactive common carrier lines...."
[First paragraph copied from the following linked site] "Stanford Environmental Law Journal (SELJ) "
"A Primer on Rails-to-Trails Conversions in the Eastern U.S"
@ https://journals.law.stanford.edu/stanford-environmental-law-journal-elj/blog/primer-rails-trails-conversions-eastern-us
Sections (1) and(2) of that same paragraph also bear some reading as well;Rails to Trails, is not the total resolution of their issues with the un-used "W" line, and adjacent properties... As the folks up in New York State found when trying to scoop up the ROW of The Adirondack Scenic.
As Mudchicken has warned, One MUST have to start at the very beginning with the Original Deeds, and how they spelled out the property rights of the original owners (and/or grantors) of the original railline.
I recall from some years back that the original(A&SRR) railroad ROW was subject of much rancor and 'political wrangling' in the established Legislatures of both N.C. and S.C. Not to mention the Corporate, intramural maneuvers during the original phases of construction of the Asheville& Spartanburg RR. The first train was in 1878 (4th of July).
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