Trains Newswire reported 1-20-09 that 3 out of 5 railroaders had social or other "emotional" problems. Any comments?
And before any wiseguy inserts this one, I will: has a similar study (should a similar study) be done on railfans?
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Does the industry appeal to individuals of such nature, or does the industry change the nature of individuals who enter it?
Victrola1 Does the industry appeal to individuals of such nature, or does the industry change the nature of individuals who enter it?
A friend pointed out to me that you ask an individual to be on call with no set hours, send him on a job with one other person for up to 12 hours resulting in long hours (fatigueing), long periods of time away from family and friends, and often with only one other person to talk to converse with for extended periods of time while working the "isolation" can have negative effects on one's social abilities. But your question Victolat 1, does point to some possible root causes and problems. A [removed], but accurate answer in one word: yes.
henry6 Trains Newswire reported 1-20-09 that 3 out of 5 railroaders had social or other "emotional" problems. Any comments? And before any wiseguy inserts this one, I will: has a similar study (should a similar study) be done on railfans?
WE see stories similar to this all the time, and not confined to Railroading or any one profession. I have become so cynical that I do not pay attention to them.
Who conducts the studies? What were their motivations? Who paid for the study? Would others with similar credentials reach a different conclusion?
There are just too many variables for such results to have a meaning requiring action. But the news media, the tort lawyers and the academics will all use these stories to promote themselves.
Too many of these "studies" and "surveys" are nothing more than a way to get a government funding grant. Most of them have a pre-drawn conclusion to prove by manipulating their results to their own way of thinking.
A.1. Steak Sauce -- Served in 9 out of 10 Steakhouses. Can Kraft prove that assumption? Probably not, but has anyone ever challenged their claim? How do they know? Define "Steakhouse." McDonald's? Burger King? (technically, Ground Steak); a hot dog stand (Round Steak)?.
Four out of 5 people prefer .... Nine out of 10 ... Make up your own statistics to prove your point.
It Is Not US ! It is the rest of the World !
I think if you look at most other industries you will see similar results.
henry6 Trains Newswire reported 1-20-09 that 3 out of 5 railroaders had social or other "emotional" problems. Any comments?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Who does not have social or other "emotional" problems ?
Yeah, I have about 6 comments (in addition to echoing those above), listed in order of increasing importance, as follows:
1) Only 3 out of 5 ? I've known quite a few characters, but yes, substance abuse and disorders are common, and maybe more than in the population at large.
2) Hey, I represent that remark ! Just ask my wife . . .
3) For some jobs, the traits that make a person good or excellent in the execution or performance of the railroad's task - from general dedication to the job to specific skills - will be viewed as aberrant by the rest of the general population (the "slackers" !). For example, an engineer's compulsion to be "On Time"; a dispatcher's insistence on knowing and ability to visualize what's going on everyplace all the time; a conductor or yard clerk's attention to getting all of the reporting marks and car numbers and in the correct order, etc. For some of these, I wouldn't want a "normal" person - I'd prefer the person who is obsessed with doing it right. I wonder if the captain of the US Airways plane that ditched in the Hudson River last week would seem abnormal in these studies in some way ? Look at some of the posts about the rebuilding of the UP RR bridge that burned last March in California, the fail-safe mentality and culture of signaling systems and dispatching, and so on - no, we're not normal, and glad of it;
4) One of my neighbors is a mental health professional who has told me in the past that she a large number of railroaders among her clientele. I might ask her to comment on this;
5) One of my nephews is autistic, and there seems to be a lot in common between that, guys in general, and the traits that are common in engineers (both my kind - civil, and the locomotive operating kind), and many other male-dominated professions. I suspect there's a "continuum" kind of thing at work here - from white to shades of gray to black - and some of those tendencies is what draws us to this business. For example, the big noisy machines, the clear rules, the comparative lack of "relationship" issues or "touchy-feely" "feel good" traits or tendencies, etc.;
6) Most importantly - I'm questioning the basic legitimacy of this report. I challenge the Newswire editor to provide a citation or link to that study or the AP report. I did a Google search of both the Web and News, the Archives of General Psychiatry website (the current month is at: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/66/1/9 ), the New York State Psychiatric Institute at Coulmbia University ( http://columbiapsychiatry.org/), and a few other places - and I didn't find any other references to it ! Sure, I may have missed it, so I'm going to be gentle for the moment - but until someone shows me the proof, I'm also going to suspend my belief that this report has any truth to it. Let's see what happens next . . .
- Paul North.
As far as the newswire item it strikes me that the long and sometimes erratic hours worked by railroaders could certainly take a toll on a person's social life and In some cases that would affect job performance...
Why should someone fund a study on how a hobby affects people?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Paul_D_North_Jr [snip] 5) One of my nephews is autistic, and there seems to be a lot in common between that, guys in general, and the traits that are common in engineers (both my kind - civil, and the locomotive operating kind), and many other male-dominated professions. I suspect there's a "continuum" kind of thing at work here - from white to shades of gray to black - and some of those tendencies is what draws us to this business. For example, the big noisy machines, the clear rules, the comparative lack of "relationship" issues or "touchy-feely" "feel good" traits or tendencies, etc.; 6) Most importantly - I'm questioning the basic legitimacy of this report. I challenge the Newswire editor to provide a citation or link to that study or the AP report. I did a Google search of both the Web and News, the Archives of General Psychiatry website (the current month is at: http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/66/1/9 ), the New York State Psychiatric Institute at Coulmbia University ( http://columbiapsychiatry.org/), and a few other places - and I didn't find any other references to it ! Sure, I may have missed it, so I'm going to be gentle for the moment - but until someone shows me the proof, I'm also going to suspend my belief that this report has any truth to it. Let's see what happens next . . . - Paul North.
Add to 5): This may be something where a little of a trait is OK or even helpful, but a lot is too much and bad.
Add to 6): From my Advanced Search of Google News - "Your search - rail "personality disorder" - did not match any articles between Jan 15, 2009 and today." [emphasis added - PDN.] I rest my case.
I have wondered why 9 out of 10 doctors can't get along with the other guy.
Is anyone familiar with the phrase 95% of families are dysfunctional? If it's that high a percentage then that makes not necessarilly optimal, but normal. .
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
carnej1 Why should someone fund a study on how a hobby affects people?
Again the "sa" answer is "yes". But with so much talk about "foamers" and the hysterics over rail photography and so called national security, it may be an interesting thing to follow through with our hobby and all its aspects. And I think that any hobby has it quirky qualities to attract and foster certain behaviors which would also yield interesting survey results..
As for professions, I would think truck drivers would be another group whose study outcome would be similar. But they do use cell phone services and the old CD channels for company. I'll second the note on salesmen as I am one and can spend 8 or 10 or more hours a day alone in my car.
Of course the RR makes you nuts. This job is has so many conflicting issues such as:
a. get your work done, but follow the 15,000 rules that prevent you from doing your work.
b. "you are the most importatns part of this railroad, but I'm still going to spy on you and try to take you out of service"
c. be well rested and not tired, but we can't tell you when you will work.
d. don't make OT, they will re-work the jobs, but don't get a quit or they will eliminate them.
e. they cut the extra lists, then have a fit if someone marks off because no one is there to fill that job.
f. they don't want to pay you be qualified anywhere, yet they have a fit if you're not qualified anywhere.
g. they want you to do extra work, then decline the claims.
___________
Some personal perspective here. The last half of last year I held a regular road train. Usually got called the same time to go to the away terminal on the same train. The train home got called at the same time every day. Then I had the 3rd day off. Rinse and repeat. Now I'm back on an extra list. And it sucks. Only 2 on this list right now, so I'm almost always first out. At least on some of the other lists - if you are 12 deep, you know you have the day off (barring any sudden "sickness" that takes out half the crews - like the super bowl). So I get off work, then go right to bed, in case I end up being called on my rest (6 for 8 - who needs more than 4-5 hours sleep anyhow?) or I may end up being first out for 2 days. Then all sort of back room deals go on, crews being pulled off other jobs to fill in, so you have no idea when they will decide to ping you to show up.
It has come to a point where I do absolutely nothing anymore. If I start something, I'm going to get called. I don't live near any real active daytime rail lines, so to do any real shooting, I need to drive 45 mins away. Of course as soon as I would do that, the damned phone will ring, and I'll have to turn right around to get ready to go to work. Just the fact you don't know when you will work or have a day off... some people may be able to handle that easily. But for me - it gets harder every day.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
And in the words of Benjamin Disreali:
There's lies, damned lies, and statistics
I suspect you could do a similar study in any special interest group and get similar results.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
henry6 And before any wiseguy inserts this one, I will: has a similar study (should a similar study) be done on railfans?
Yu talkin ta me?
Have fun with your trains
Let me give you a rundown on how my week usually works. Take into consideration that my "pay week" is from Sunday at 00:00 AM until Saturday at 23:59 PM. My only "scheduled" day off is Thursday from 00:00 Thursday morning for period 24 hours after that ending at 00:00 Friday morning. Also take into consideration that usually we are given a 2 hour call to report for service.
Depending on when I'm off my rest Sunday, they may call me for 2100 for an extra train that runs down to interchange with another railroad and service a few customers along the way. I get out of work some time around 0700 to 0900 Monday morning. Once I drive home, if I haven't worked a full twelve hours, I've only got about 7 hours and 15 minutes of rest left.
Depending on who else has worked, I could be anywhere from first out or last out on the spare board. My terminal has four men on the spare board. The extra job to the other railroad is ran usually five or six times per week. So in an ideal situation if there were no vacancies or people marking off, I'd work every other day and have a 50% duty cycle of work throughout the week. We'll assume that this is the case, and that we're at full roster.
Monday, I stay close to home for the day and run some errands. Two hour call means that I've got about an hour's radius around my house where I can travel. This allows me to get far enough to pay my utility bills, grocery shop, etc. Being that there were two people head of me on the roster, I enjoy my night off and don't work.
Tuesday, if the list hasn't changed, I'm first/second out depending on if it's an engineer ahead of me or not. Either way, I'll be working the first job that gets called. I got a full nights sleep the previous night, so I'm awake by 8 AM and ready to start my day. All day goes by and they don't call me until 1900. I've already been up for eleven hours. Two hour call means that I've been up thirteen hours by the time I go to work. If we work a full tweleve hours, that's twenty five hours without wrest. Most people might go fourteen to sixteen on a normal day.
Once I get home around 1000 Wednesday morning, I take my 10 hours rest. By the time I'm home, I've only got around nine hours left. That means they can require me to be at work by 1900 hours that night. At 1700 my phone rings. "Report to work for the southbound manifest, 1900". Someone must have called out, and they must have already called the interchange extra for that time. I would have been third or fourth out on the list, so who knows what happened to get me put on a road job.
The road job takes a full twelve hours before you get off the train. If you don't make it to the designated terminal, you're stuck in a taxi until you do arrive. We'll assume best case scenario and say you make it right at the twelfth hour. Your period of required rest is from 0700 until 1700. Ten hours. At the eight hour mark they call you for the first minute after the tenth hour, to take the manifest north. Work for twelve hours, drive home, and I'm back home around 0600 Friday morning if everything goes perfect and as planned.
So far, my work week has been 48 hours of pay, with an additional 10 unpaid hours where I was required to be in a hotel.
Now, let's add a few more items into the mix. My spouse works five days a week, on a set schedule as a nursing supervisor. Her schedule gives her one weekday off each week, with every other weekend. It makes it quite hard to line up time to do anything.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------In response to the "study" and "article"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fully stand behind my previous opinion (that I've said in other threads) that unless you have worked on a railroad and experienced the (possible) fatigue, disruption of relationships, etc. Many of the "fatigue" issues are not as bad as they seem, and come from the railroaders not taking precautiosn to prepare themselves.
For me, I know that if I'm on the board and ready to go out, I need to "maintain" my rest. I'll take a half hour or forty-five minute nap every three or four hours just to keep refreshed. I'll take a three or four hour nap every twelve. If I don't get called all day, I'll attempt to get a full nights sleep with a little extra in the morning.
But, my account as told above is in a perfect scenario. Ideally, after booking off Friday I'd be allowed Saturday of due to working my scheduled day off.... But, if they needed me for ANY reason possible, they'd yank that privelage away.
It goes downhill fast.
Hey Zug - it's really not what all the railfans crack it up to be... is it?
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The worst for me on the extra list is when I know when I'm going to be going out. How can that be? you ask.. Well, the final decisions for what evening locals gets brakemen is about 6pm. Then it gets posted on the mainframe. So I can check at 6pm and see if any of the 3 locals (all called at the same time - 9pm) will get a brakeman. If I'm pegged to get called, I may try to get a quick nap. Try is the operative word... cause it just don't happen.
A few small changes would make the extra list so much better. And these are changes that existed before. 15-20 years ago, you needed 20 yrs to hold the road extra list. But then you had assigned days off, normal calling windows for awhile, and lots of times they would deadhead extra crews home. Now, no scheduled time off at all, and they want to shove you in a hotel forever until they fond some oddball train (like running 2 engines lite back home) to put you on.
When I had a normal train - I felt (dare I say it?) normal. this actually felt like a normal job. I was always well-rested and made that much of a better RRer. True, there's always guys out there that cannot handle the rest issue, even if they do have an assigned train. But don't lump them in with the rest of us. If I get forced to the road extra list again, I may just walk.
I am really surprised how this thread has attracted 2 pages in less than 2 hours! From the comments of railroaders it does reflect the headline and reinforces some of the statements in the article. In the late 80's and early 90's business, industry, and government, turned its back on a lot of time and motion, time and stress, and other similar work environment studies and facts, so the results for railroads and any other industry or business shouldn't be surprising. More work is demanded from fewer employees in fewer hours while supposedly holding equal quality and quantity. There was some truth the the "make work" aspects of some jobs and businesses, but the consolidation and condensing of jobs has had a negative effect on quality and quantity. All this has meant stress on the workers leading to stress in family situations. I am also very sure, as has been said, that such stress and non-normal family situations are results that can be attributed to many other jobs in many other industries. I wonder if AP or whoever picked out railroad jobs from study which may have included other jobs.
I'm a picture of the perfect social butterfly that lands with the touch of a feather on a baby's soft skin....NOW GET OFF MY BACK .........emotions,I haven't got an emotional problem .
Oh to let the experts place a condition on us railroaders.
I think they are the one who have a problem with judging folks.
And just to think I only have 20 more years to go to have social and emotional problems
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
I suggest doing an Internet search for "1 in 5 young Americans has personality disorder" and comparing the article that you find to the "railroad employees" story. It appears to me that someone used the former as a basis for fabricating the latter.
I have noticed that everyone wants to be normal, but no one wants to be average.
I've heard that 60% of statistics are wrong 40% of the time...
Or, as my Father in law used to say: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure".
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Jay -
THANKS, man ! - for thinking of or knowing where to look for the next step in running this down. It appears that you've confirmed my suspicion, and that a fraud or hoax has indeed been perpetrated upon the Trains News Wire, if not the AP as well. Wonder who's responsible for this . . . ? For some reason, it just didn't "smell right" to me, and I'm naturally curious, too, I suppose . . .
I did as you suggested, and here's the first link that came up - datedlined Dec. 1, 2008 - for anyone else that wants to read it for themself, make their own comparison, and draw their own conclusions:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/
As before, I'll forward this to the News Wire staff shortly so that they are fully informed for whatever corrective action they deem appropriate to take.
Nevertheless, I did find a couple of the paragraphs in this report "on point" with some of the comments I made in my prior post. See if you recognize the railroaders and/ or what I had in mind:
"Personality disorders showed up in similar numbers among both students and non-students, including the most common one, obsessive compulsive personality disorder. About 8 percent of young adults in both groups had this illness, which can include an extreme preoccupation with details, rules, orderliness and perfectionism.
All good students have a touch of "obsessional" personality that helps them work hard to achieve. But that's different from an obsessional disorder that makes people inflexible and controlling and interferes with their lives, he explained." [emphasis added - PDN.]
Thanks again, Jay. Isn't that remarkable ?
Actually 67% of statistics are made up on the spot 49% of the time.
Actually 53% of the statistics are made up on the spot 72% of the time.
OK...I've read Paul's post and the link. So AP got duped or whatever, and it carried over to TRAINS Magazine. Yet it is interesting the quotes and information given by railroaders here. I am not sure whether to read them as defenses or admissions. But it is clear that there is a stress factor in the lives of railroaders, and others, whose work hours are irregular, demanding, long, and in and out of touch with others. And all that does affect family life. Needs to be studied more, thats for sure. But not here.
It's all in the context.
If I do a study that shows that X% of the general population has, say, athletes foot, then I can state, with a certain basis in fact, that the study showed that X% of, say, lawn care specialists have athletes foot.
In fact, I can use that as the headline and never mention lawn care again in the article, and people will still walk away thinking that athletes foot is an occupational hazard for gardeners.
This presumes that the person taking the information knows what constitutes an emotional problem.
It's all about perspective.
Who defines what emotional state is normal or what is a "problem".
I once saw a feminist survey where they asked college women if they had ever had a sexual encounter and then the next morning regretted it. If they answered yes, they were classified as a rape victim. Guess what kind of unreported rape statistics that generated. That survey showed that MOST college women were date rape victims.
Well, to clarify a little bit, there's 2 "trains of thought" [sorry !] going on here:
1) The initial article/ study is looking more and more to be a hoax. So I'm done with it, unless something new turns up;
2) That said - and despite that, because I'm not denying or minimizing the problem at all - yeah, it's nevertheless quite clear (and has been since looonnnggg before today - like maybe 20 years ?) that railroading can be stressful, and is extremely so for those road employees whose work and rest schedules are unpredictable and essentially random. "Circadian rhythyms" is the technical term, I believe. That leads to all kinds of symptoms, coping, and defensive mechanisms, some of which are OK and some aren't. Same conditions may also cause or aggravate personality disorders of various kinds, which may or may not be of serious concern. Also, there's no doubt (in my mind, anyway) that the industry attracts some people with personality quirks, some of which may be extreme.
The sincere posts by the working railroaders above attest to the legitimacy of the issues, and this is a proper place to air them, as far as I'm concerned, and should be continued. The bogus article is just an insult and a distraction. The real-world challenges and medical conditions - starting with sleep-deprivation [I've been told that I'm a "poster child" for that, too !] and going on to more serious effects such as high blood pressure (and other grimmer results that I don't want to mention here) as faced by these guys (and gals, Sarah - CSX4evah) is of more interest and concern to me than some reporter hyping up psycho-babble that they don't understand.
Back to your regular programming . . .
Question ?
Does the article give the person who done the study,their credentials,you know like what college their degree was from and what their degree was in,whom they studied under,what they studied ,who they studied and how long the study was ?
To make BIG claims like that,the person must surely have all the critical and no-critical facts listed.
There's alot of environment envoled with railroad workers.I know the BLE and the Canadian government conducted a study a few years ago on power naps.It took some time , just not a casual observance to make the claims that a power nap was beneficial.
I know that comparing apples and oranges,but it's out of the same orchard
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