From today's email bag:If 4 out of 5 people SUFFER from diarrhea.... does that mean that one out of five enjoys it?
I sincerely doubt that the astronomical levels of PTSD are caused by fatigue.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Has anyone thought how fastigued our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are???. Maybe that is why so many come home with PTSD.
zugmannReport may be a hoax, but the problems are real...
ABSOLUTELY! CORRECTAMUNDO!
The study may be junk science, but fatigue is real and a threat..
Fatigue is faced every day by men and women who work under existing working situations, as well as current work rules.
THIS LINK MIGHT BE OF INTEREST:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/fatiguewhitepaper112706.pdf
OR THIS LINK AS WELL:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/dot_fra_ord_0621.pdf
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Dudes ... this story is a hoax. The original research was related to college students and wasn't even close to 3 in 5. Here is a link to REAL Associated Press story. Check it out. http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11116299?source=rss
When I read the Newswire piece, it was unclear to me just who the term "railroader" included. Suppose somebody is in the diesel shop repairing/rebuilding engines on a regular shift. Another person is a signal maintainer. Are those persons railroaders in the sense of the article? Their job is just as necessary to the enterprise as somebody at the throttle, but some of the adverse job conditions outlined above don't exist.
To make any sense of this, we need much more data than drive-by AP piece.
My guess is that 2.5 out of 5 interviewed asked "What kind of (censored) question is that??" and were immediately marked as emotionally unstable.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
edblysard As was noted, the statistic is applicable to just about any profession, heck, just about every specific group of people in the world. Seriously, is there anybody here who has not had a bout of depression over the death of a close friend or a family member? Or a case of the blues after losing a job? Had some major setback or loss that didn't cause a emotional response? In some shape, form or fashion, everyone at some point in their lives has some type of emotional issue, from severe to mild... Seems to me the writer was simply applying a broad and relative generalized statement to a group of people, in the hopes of creating a media worthy issue where there really is none.
As was noted, the statistic is applicable to just about any profession, heck, just about every specific group of people in the world.
Seriously, is there anybody here who has not had a bout of depression over the death of a close friend or a family member?
Or a case of the blues after losing a job?
Had some major setback or loss that didn't cause a emotional response?
In some shape, form or fashion, everyone at some point in their lives has some type of emotional issue, from severe to mild...
Seems to me the writer was simply applying a broad and relative generalized statement to a group of people, in the hopes of creating a media worthy issue where there really is none.
That is healthy depression, which is a whole 'nother ball game...
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Yeah, the money issue. There are changes coming with the new HOS rules already. There are some people that would live out here if possible. Then there are those that want a decent job and home life. Unfortunaltey the RR doesn't give us a choice. I would be all for being able to book more time off and let the money-hungry fools run their wheels off. But it will never be. And I don't want to be on the line of road with people working 20 hours straight so they can afford their boat payment. That is why we have the regulations. If it were up to the RR, we'd get ZERO rest.
FATIGUE: A potentially "HOT" subject. Does anyone recall after the 1973 fuel shortage when the "National Speed limit " was set to a max of 55MPH? It was supposed to save fuel and lives by reducing the fuel usage and saving lives? It rapidly becam a Crock o' .....! Drivers' were directly effected by the reduction of speed, and their hours to be able to drive, and earn a living within a reduced speed linmit. The last thing that railroads OR Railroaders need is the heavy hand of more government regulations; especially, if it intrudes on a man's/woman's ability to earn the best living possible (read: most moneypossible).
About ten years ago,or so, there was an article on the BNSF web page that stated (paraphrased) Studies had been done and fatigue being a major issue, the BNSF was going to institute a program where by one head end crewman at a time could take a rest break- one man had to be awake at all times- the ability to take an 'authorized' break would be if a train was in a stoppedf mode, awaiting passing, signales, or anything else causing the train to be stopped for an undetermined period of time. The locomotive would be provided with a cot/or bed to facilitate the 'authorized nap period' ( Italics mine).
MY question is does anyone know what the outcome of this program was- or if it was ever emplimented, and if it was what was its outcome?
Having been an over the road driver for over 20yrs, and in trucking safety as well. I have personaly experienced various levels of fatigue and their effects on myself and others.
About ten or so years back there was much federally sponsored fatigue research, that research identified and shed a lot of light on the phenomenom of"MICRO NAP" . Bodily fatigue to the point that the autonomic response is to shut down nonesential functions; ie, one who is so tired the brain senses a danger to the individual,and shuts down for a brief nap. Said naps duration than a second,to a complete sleep state.
The thinking at the time was that this was the cause of inexplicable rear-end collisions, or other accidents where a driver might run a tangent off of a curving road out of the roadway, or drift off the road to one side or the other into the ditch.
I would say the psychological factors present in the trucking and railroad industries would be similar; solitude, long hours,boredom, very irregular sleep periods, uncertain scheedules, and so on.
Hunter Harrison, some time back instituted a "scheduled railroad" on the Canadian National, and again when he got to the Illinois Central. It would seem that scheduling work periods would go a very long way towards a good level of employee satisfaction by maintaining consistancy in scheduling. Yet we do not hear too much about this way of running a railroad..
Murphy Siding Phoebe Vet I have noticed that everyone wants to be normal, but no one wants to be average. I've heard that 60% of statistics are wrong 40% of the time... Or, as my Father in law used to say: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure". It's worse than you think! Do you realize, that 50% of the population is below average? Combine this with the fact that 5 out 3 people on the street don't understand fractions. Now you know why we're all in this handbasket, and where we're all headed. Back to the subject at hand- My dad was an over the road trucker. That life has to be similar to that of a railroader. It's a hard life, and I have to admire those that have what it takes to work like that.
Phoebe Vet I have noticed that everyone wants to be normal, but no one wants to be average. I've heard that 60% of statistics are wrong 40% of the time... Or, as my Father in law used to say: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure".
I have noticed that everyone wants to be normal, but no one wants to be average.
I've heard that 60% of statistics are wrong 40% of the time...
Or, as my Father in law used to say: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure".
Back to the subject at hand- My dad was an over the road trucker. That life has to be similar to that of a railroader. It's a hard life, and I have to admire those that have what it takes to work like that.
23 17 46 11
Taken by itself, the statement is meaningless. As someone above said, it lacks context. More specifically, it needs the additional statement, "In the general population the comparable numbers are X out of Y." Only with both sets of numbers can the author, or we, form an informed opinion about "3 out of 5" railroaders.
I appreciate the comments above from railroaders about crew scheduling, rest, and stress. They help me understand the profession better.
Yeah, it's a union road, but the unions are too busy fighting each other. Plus we have no unity at all where I work. That is our biggest problem. No one looks out for anyone else... a dog eat dog terminal.
Guidelines mean nothing to the railroad. It has to be regulation. Something with a monetary fine. Look at the cell phone business. Railroads had rules for ages about the use of cellphones in engines (mostly the attention to duty rules), but they were ignored until the FRA stepped in. Now it's a big deal. Same thing with SPAF forms.
The only reason I brought up public pressure is that it usually leads to political pressure - and that is the only thing they will listen to out here.
Again, all my opinion.
henry6 Trains Newswire reported 1-20-09 that 3 out of 5 railroaders had social or other "emotional" problems. Any comments? And before any wiseguy inserts this one, I will: has a similar study (should a similar study) be done on railfans?
Trains Newswire reported 1-20-09 that 3 out of 5 railroaders had social or other "emotional" problems. Any comments?
And before any wiseguy inserts this one, I will: has a similar study (should a similar study) be done on railfans?
Figures lie, Liars figure and then we have the figuring liars.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
GraniteRailroader A well written union contract and unity among the union brothers is a great tool to have when fighting poor conditions.
A well written union contract and unity among the union brothers is a great tool to have when fighting poor conditions.
And all that's here say.AMEN !
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
zugmannSo, where? There is a definite problem out here. Even the best of us are caught short more than what would make most comfortable. This is not an insular problem. These trains are hauling hazardous materials through innocent people's backyards. If a crew falls asleep and runs a red board and has a cornfield meet in a populated area - it WILL be made the center of the public's attention. Unfortunately I think it may end up coming down to that before anyone takes notice. Look what it took to get any teeth in the cellphone bills. The railroads could care less - we are just prostitutes to them. They pay us to perform, and when we outlive our usefulness we get kicked to the curb. There is no general concern of our welfare out here. Sure they talk a good game, but its all about statistics. It's all to make them *look* good. To get anything done, there HAS to be public pressure.
So, where?
There is a definite problem out here. Even the best of us are caught short more than what would make most comfortable. This is not an insular problem. These trains are hauling hazardous materials through innocent people's backyards. If a crew falls asleep and runs a red board and has a cornfield meet in a populated area - it WILL be made the center of the public's attention. Unfortunately I think it may end up coming down to that before anyone takes notice. Look what it took to get any teeth in the cellphone bills.
The railroads could care less - we are just prostitutes to them. They pay us to perform, and when we outlive our usefulness we get kicked to the curb. There is no general concern of our welfare out here. Sure they talk a good game, but its all about statistics. It's all to make them *look* good.
To get anything done, there HAS to be public pressure.
I don't think the pressure necessarily needs to come from a public source. I think this is something that we as railroaders need to group together to take care of.
(Trying not to get political here...)
This is an issue that all railroad unions need to tackle together. If we're going to fight this battle, it's an issue that we need to deal with on a personal level as well. We as railroaders aren't always the most responsible when it comes to taking our rest when we should. "Oh I need to do this now, I'll just take a nap later ". Later comes and goes, and you are right back to work.
There needs to be some sort of equal balance here. Do I necessarily think that the FRA needs to step in and further re-define and restrict the hours of service? No, but a set of suggested guidelines to be met with incentives to do them may be a way to encourage railroads to follow thru with better crew conditions.
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
Old Quaker saying: "Everyone's crazy except me and thee,and sometimes I wonder about thee."
A recent study showed that one out of four people are unbalanced.Think of your three closest friends.If they seem ok,your'e it!
CShaveRRI'm in the purported majority, both as a railroader and a railfan. Yes, I have problems. I deal with them, and live my life anyway. This is news?
At one time it was Dentists who had the highest suicide rates...this was perhaps 25 years ago that I read of it. I don't know if they have been supplanted in the pecking order (so to speak), but I wonder how soldiers are faring these days. I was a bit quirky when I returned from relatively tame peace-keeping tours to both Cyprus and Bosnia. Imagine what infantrymen and marines are like upon repatriation when they had to patrol local neighbourhoods on foot two or three times a week for the duration of their deployment!
The fact is that some people are not well suited, or matched, to their work. Even worse, some can't bring themselves to get out of it. There is a lot of research on stress based on what is called "locus of control". Generally, those with more autonomy, who can direct and predict work and assignments to it, leaders in other words, do well in terms of mental health. Those who get the assignments, who have little or no say in what and when they are to carry it out, tend to have more heart disease and other ailments/disorders strongly associated with the prolonged exposure to stress. So, about "locus of control": if you have more autonomy and control, your locus is more internal...it comes from within and makes you feel better. Those who have an external locus of control get their cues and orientation from without, which makes them necessarily reactive...and often unhappy.
I'm pretty sure you could apply this to just about any workplace and find, if only as a general trend, that those on the lower (reactive) end of the pole are going to exhibit more of the deleterious effects of the protracted stress cycle. Generally, not specifically. Maybe in 3/5 cases? Dunno.
-Crandell
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
henry6 But it is clear that there is a stress factor in the lives of railroaders, and others, whose work hours are irregular, demanding, long, and in and out of touch with others. And all that does affect family life. Needs to be studied more, thats for sure. But not here.
henry6Yet it is interesting the quotes and information given by railroaders here. I am not sure whether to read them as defenses or admissions. But it is clear that there is a stress factor in the lives of railroaders, and others, whose work hours are irregular, demanding, long, and in and out of touch with others. And all that does affect family life. Needs to be studied more, thats for sure. But not here.
Yet it is interesting the quotes and information given by railroaders here. I am not sure whether to read them as defenses or admissions. But it is clear that there is a stress factor in the lives of railroaders, and others, whose work hours are irregular, demanding, long, and in and out of touch with others. And all that does affect family life. Needs to be studied more, thats for sure. But not here.
It's not a defense, nor an admission. The article was either written by someone who is out of touch of the lifestyle that is "normal" within this industry, or someone who wanted to see their name published and make headlines. I'd say that there's a good possibility that it could be both.
I see absolutely no reason to study the life style of railroaders outside of the fact that railfans will be interested in the results. I, and my coworkers, all realize the result of having the railroad as a career being married to the phone and the railroad that's hiding behind it. We all know the strains it puts on relationships, family events, birthdays, Christmas, and more. Why does that need to be portrayed in the main stream media, only to focus more attention on us and cause further "studies"?
Over and over, I see this "F" word being dropped. No, not the one that starts with "F" and ends in "UCK" (Firetruck anyone?) . I'm talking about FATIGUE. Railroad "FATIGUE" can be summed up in a short and blunt way.
One of the biggest things leading up to fatigue in the railroad industry is the sleep, or on occasion the lack of. If I get four or five hours of sleep before going to work, I know I'll be all set for the duration of my shift. If I stay up for the eight (or ten as it may be) hours I'm allowed for rest, and then get called to go right back to work, I know I'm going to have a rough day/nite and will be exhausted. We can be our own enemies in the aspect, but we definately don't need anyone to study this and tell us. We already know.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
It's meaningless because there is no context. Is 60% normal, 10% high, 10% low or what compared to the general population?
As far as being obsessive compulsive, I write computer code for a living. If you're not OC when you start the job, you soon will be.
Question ?
Does the article give the person who done the study,their credentials,you know like what college their degree was from and what their degree was in,whom they studied under,what they studied ,who they studied and how long the study was ?
To make BIG claims like that,the person must surely have all the critical and no-critical facts listed.
There's alot of environment envoled with railroad workers.I know the BLE and the Canadian government conducted a study a few years ago on power naps.It took some time , just not a casual observance to make the claims that a power nap was beneficial.
I know that comparing apples and oranges,but it's out of the same orchard
Well, to clarify a little bit, there's 2 "trains of thought" [sorry !] going on here:
1) The initial article/ study is looking more and more to be a hoax. So I'm done with it, unless something new turns up;
2) That said - and despite that, because I'm not denying or minimizing the problem at all - yeah, it's nevertheless quite clear (and has been since looonnnggg before today - like maybe 20 years ?) that railroading can be stressful, and is extremely so for those road employees whose work and rest schedules are unpredictable and essentially random. "Circadian rhythyms" is the technical term, I believe. That leads to all kinds of symptoms, coping, and defensive mechanisms, some of which are OK and some aren't. Same conditions may also cause or aggravate personality disorders of various kinds, which may or may not be of serious concern. Also, there's no doubt (in my mind, anyway) that the industry attracts some people with personality quirks, some of which may be extreme.
The sincere posts by the working railroaders above attest to the legitimacy of the issues, and this is a proper place to air them, as far as I'm concerned, and should be continued. The bogus article is just an insult and a distraction. The real-world challenges and medical conditions - starting with sleep-deprivation [I've been told that I'm a "poster child" for that, too !] and going on to more serious effects such as high blood pressure (and other grimmer results that I don't want to mention here) as faced by these guys (and gals, Sarah - CSX4evah) is of more interest and concern to me than some reporter hyping up psycho-babble that they don't understand.
Back to your regular programming . . .
- Paul North.
This presumes that the person taking the information knows what constitutes an emotional problem.
It's all about perspective.
Who defines what emotional state is normal or what is a "problem".
I once saw a feminist survey where they asked college women if they had ever had a sexual encounter and then the next morning regretted it. If they answered yes, they were classified as a rape victim. Guess what kind of unreported rape statistics that generated. That survey showed that MOST college women were date rape victims.
It's all in the context.
If I do a study that shows that X% of the general population has, say, athletes foot, then I can state, with a certain basis in fact, that the study showed that X% of, say, lawn care specialists have athletes foot.
In fact, I can use that as the headline and never mention lawn care again in the article, and people will still walk away thinking that athletes foot is an occupational hazard for gardeners.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Actually 53% of the statistics are made up on the spot 72% of the time.
OK...I've read Paul's post and the link. So AP got duped or whatever, and it carried over to TRAINS Magazine. Yet it is interesting the quotes and information given by railroaders here. I am not sure whether to read them as defenses or admissions. But it is clear that there is a stress factor in the lives of railroaders, and others, whose work hours are irregular, demanding, long, and in and out of touch with others. And all that does affect family life. Needs to be studied more, thats for sure. But not here.
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