Here are two pictures of the UP mainline that passes through Salem Oregon. This is the same mainline that had the major mudslide last spring. The tracks go right through the heart of the city only two blocks from the State Capitol building. For seven city blocks with grade crossings, these tracks seem so close to a very busy pedestrian area of town. The railhead is 7ft 4in from the sidewalk fence and 11ft from the tires of passing traffic on the other side. That puts the side of a boxcar only about 5ft from the fence. If I feel lucky, I can lean on this fence while eating my lunch and touch a fast moving train with a yardstick. Wow! The locomotives pass at around 30mph but by the time the last half of a 100 car train passes its going 50mph. We often talk about safety near moving trains and chains or straps that might be hanging from a moving train.
Is this narrow main line right of way common in other US cities?
I wonder if the city is liable if a pedestrian gets hurt on the sidewalk?
I'm not personally familiar with this particular location. But, based on the pictures, it's possible that the railroad is actually on the street right-of-way, possibly under some kind of franchise arrangement.
The city has encroached on the railroad over time..not vice versa..
so think of it as "the city is too close to the railroad"
not "the railroad is too close to the city"
and yes, its fairly common..in most places, the railroad can preserve its wide right of way..but probably in this case the city "took" the railroads wide ROW and the railroad couldnt do anything about it.
Scot
The rails are just as close along Alaskan Way in downtown Seattle.
RJ
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Typically, chains on cars at 30 MPH don't swing all that high. That stone wall should protect the pedestrians pretty well. Still, I wouldn't want to stand there if the train was moving any faster...
How do the pedestrians cross the tracks? I don't see any crosswalks...
I would guess this stretch is pretty white-knuckle for the train crew sometimes, because of all those roads crossing the tracks... Just hope nobody stops at those intersections...on the tracks...
Rights of way that are this narrow in cities are usually left over from the days of Interurban lines, and are not particularly cases of the city growing up around the railroad, but the railroad inheriting trackage that was meant for streetcars.
Very interesting, and some good comments. My nephew is a firefighter/EMT in Salem. He calls this Suicide Ally. Not to go into it deeply but the State Facility where they filmed "One Flew Over the CooCoo Nest" is a few blocks away.
I have hi-railed this track a few times and you must go very slow and the intersections can be scary. This is one of the places where if you could get hold of a cab video you could get a good idea of just how white knuckle it can be for the train crew.
There are a alot of places like this, usually it's not the mainline like it is here. Probably the most interesting was Reno NV, But that has been replaced by putting the UP (SP) in a ditch through the center of town.
When the railroads go through the heart of a downtown area this type of thing is relatively common...from your pictures I was reminded of downtown Springfield, IL where the Amtrak (U.P.) tracks are easily as close as this to the buildings and homes along the R.O.W. Not that this type of thing is at all safe...it is not...but it IS rather common, especially in older urban areas as that one.
TrainManTy Typically, chains on cars at 30 MPH don't swing all that high. That stone wall should protect the pedestrians pretty well. Still, I wouldn't want to stand there if the train was moving any faster... How do the pedestrians cross the tracks? I don't see any crosswalks... I would guess this stretch is pretty white-knuckle for the train crew sometimes, because of all those roads crossing the tracks... Just hope nobody stops at those intersections...on the tracks...
After the locomotive passes they are moving a lot faster. Every grade crossing does have a pedestrian crossing but there are no pedestrian gates. I'm surprised that there haven't been any problems that I know of because there is a university one block south and a few blocks to the north the track pass between a high school and a middle school. The good thing is that people are aware of the trains. All together there are about 16 grade crossing in town so you can imagine all the wistle blowing and noise as a train passes. I love it.
why do you say this is white knuckle for the crew?
I don't know if this is "white knuckle territory" for the crew but when I'm walking on the sidewalk with my grandkids you can't even imagine how tight they squeeze my hands. At that distance, that locomotive looks really big and tall and loud on their little ears. So I would for sure call that sidewalk "white knuckle territory".
White knuckle for the crew because of the traffic so close, not to mention the intersections (cars may stop on the tracks at a red light) and the pedestrians so close to the tracks...
Oh that's nothing! You should've seen the old SOO, later Wisconsin Central main through Oshkosh, Wisconsin before WC took over the Fox River Valley. Over by Mable Murphy's Bar, it almost looked like WC trains were running down a sidewalk! One of the great advantages the WC gained by acquiring the FRV was to use their ex-CNW trackage through the east side of Oshkosh to avoid having to run 10 MPH through the downtown area.
You missed the railroad sign you are about to enter a "stupid zone"?
Narrow rights of way are horribly common for a multitude of reasons.
I actually don't see a problem here.
Plenty of clearance between track and parallel street, barrier between sidewalk and track (more fencing than a lot of places get!), again with plenty of clearance, traffic lights at intersections that are probably coordinated with grade-crossing signals. Crosswalks are there (and gates would be nice, but expensive), and traffic signals include the railroad crossing. Chains and straps would chew up fenceposts and clang against light poles before endangering pedestrians or cars.
Without knowing the nature of the streets crossing the tracks, I'd say that a case could probably be made by the railroad for reducing the number of grade crossings. But I'd be more concerned about the traffic being given a chance to clear these crossings than I would be by proximity to the parallel streets and sidewalks.
MC, you're right--if the trains speed up once they've cleared the crossings, some sort of "stupid zone" restriction is probably in force. And speaking of "stupid", the red car in the second picture has pulled out beyond the gates.
I don't see the reason for any white knuckles, but the hand is probably ready on the horn valve, regardless of whether this is a quiet zone. And the bell's ringing. I'd see no more concern about a train rocking on subpar trackage here than on any other part of the system. City probably won't like it when the railroad wants to resurface the track!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Ive been thru many places like this and these areas are about the easiest to get thru, no close calls and i Personally enjoy going thru areas like this as you get to see pretty women young ladies and other sites every now and then you have your teenage kid playing chicken but nothing more. but i still dont wave..............
CShaveRR actually don't see a problem here. Plenty of clearance between track and parallel street, barrier between sidewalk and track (more fencing than a lot of places get!), again with plenty of clearance, traffic lights at intersections that are probably coordinated with grade-crossing signals. Crosswalks are there (and gates would be nice, but expensive), and traffic signals include the railroad crossing. Chains and straps would chew up fenceposts and clang against light poles before endangering pedestrians or cars.
actually don't see a problem here.
I agree but I was kind of curious if this was common. I guess I feel sort of lucky when I read about places where the police scare off railfans that are anywhere near the tracks. I can sit on a bench or lean on a wall next to a fast moving mainline with only a smile from the engineer. I can take pictures of pretty girls and trains all from the same spot.
It was not necessarily interurbans that led to railroads down the streets. Often it was the railroad was there and the town and its streets were built around the railroad; other places the town wanted the railroad, well, in town! Passaic, NY had the Erie main splitting the main street as the town grew around the railroad, Main St., Thurmand, WVA is the station platform (no cars!).
What is overlooked in this discussion is that when you grow up or live in a given environment, you are aware of it and its pitfalls and dangers. I grew up within 100 feet of the DL&W mainline in New Jersey from the late 40's into the 60's. I knew what it was and what I had to do to stay safe. East of Jamaica, LI, NY, through Mineola on the LIRR there is a high speed stretch of railroad (alright, 65+mph) several miles long with grade crossings with few incidents because the people who live there know and respect their environment. It is a matter of one taking responsiblity for one's own safety and well being by learning, knowing and respecting one's enviornment and acting in the proper way to survive safely by coexisting. Some of the most dangerous rail safety situations are in and around urban rail and rapid transit lines, but the "natives" respect themselves and know how to cope safely. Or they don't.
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WIAR Oh that's nothing! You should've seen the old SOO, later Wisconsin Central main through Oshkosh, Wisconsin, before WC took over the Fox River Valley. Over by Mable Murphy's Bar, it almost looked like WC trains were running down a sidewalk! One of the great advantages the WC gained by acquiring the FRV was to use their ex-CNW trackage through the east side of Oshkosh to avoid having to run 10 MPH through the downtown area.
Oh that's nothing! You should've seen the old SOO, later Wisconsin Central main through Oshkosh, Wisconsin, before WC took over the Fox River Valley. Over by Mable Murphy's Bar, it almost looked like WC trains were running down a sidewalk! One of the great advantages the WC gained by acquiring the FRV was to use their ex-CNW trackage through the east side of Oshkosh to avoid having to run 10 MPH through the downtown area.
And, even though it wasn't a mainline, my personal favorite was the Milwaukee Road's "alley track" that went right through a downtown park. No fence, no warning signs, no nothing. The track structure was even covered by sod so that all you saw were the railheads in the grass. You'd be sitting on a bench by the fountain and a switcher (an F-M H16-44, IIRC) would wander by, taking a half dozen boxcars for a walk in the park on their way to work.
One of the places most familiar to me is Lockport, Illinois, where the CN line is right next to New Avenue for a couple of blocks through their downtown. Not nearly as pretty as the example at the top of the thread, but the Amtrak trains blow through there pretty swiftly.
"What is overlooked in this discussion is that when you grow up or live in a given environment, you are aware of it and its pitfalls and dangers. I grew up within 100 feet of the DL&W mainline in New Jersey from the late 40's into the 60's. I knew what it was and what I had to do to stay safe. East of Jamaica, LI, NY, through Mineola on the LIRR there is a high speed stretch of railroad (alright, 65+mph) several miles long with grade crossings with few incidents because the people who live there know and respect their environment"
This so right. The aspect of familiarity breeds contempt is definitely at work here. My wife and I are in the process of moving. The home we're are looking at,really hard is just off the BNSF Transcon south of Wichita. Not exactly the same as the cities mentioned, but nevertheless, very urban with multiple grade crossings. Trains moving at track speed. (my guess is about 50/60 mph). In just the short time out there, I' ve witnessed a number of 'close' calls, in the area. Two or more engines on the head-end, a couple in DPU on the rear and some 5/10 thousand feet of train in the middle. The potentials are all too familiar on this forum. A virtual lawyer's delight.
samfp1943 "What is overlooked in this discussion is that when you grow up or live in a given environment, you are aware of it and its pitfalls and dangers. I grew up within 100 feet of the DL&W mainline in New Jersey from the late 40's into the 60's. I knew what it was and what I had to do to stay safe. East of Jamaica, LI, NY, through Mineola on the LIRR there is a high speed stretch of railroad (alright, 65+mph) several miles long with grade crossings with few incidents because the people who live there know and respect their environment" This so right. The aspect of familiarity breeds contempt is definitely at work here. My wife and I are in the process of moving. The home we're are looking at,really hard is just off the BNSF Transcon south of Wichita. Not exactly the same as the cities mentioned, but nevertheless, very urban with multiple grade crossings. Trains moving at track speed. (my guess is about 50/60 mph). In just the short time out there, I' ve witnessed a number of 'close' calls, in the area. Two or more engines on the head-end, a couple in DPU on the rear and some 5/10 thousand feet of train in the middle. The potentials are all too familiar on this forum. A virtual lawyer's delight.
You make my point. You make it a lawyer's delight because you are new and unfamiliar, so if something untoward happens to you, you will have to sue. Those who grew up there, lived thier entire lives there, are accustomed to the railroad and respect it for what it is. Therefore no need for lawyers because they will not interfere with the railroad operation and will stay (relatively) safe even if they tresspass. They know the railroad, fear the railroad, respect the railroad; the railroad is just a part of the fabric of their lives.
I violunteer on a tourist railroad in Waterloo Ontario that passes through the local university. White knuckle for the crew occurs because many students are listening to their ipods and are oblivious to the oncoming train. Lots of people walking their dogs or taking a short cut on the ROW or tracks, people that have to race the train at the crossing....etc. We care, some of these people don't pay attention or understand the ramifications of being hit by a large moving object.
CShaveRROne of the places most familiar to me is Lockport, Illinois, where the CN line is right next to New Avenue for a couple of blocks through their downtown. Not nearly as pretty as the example at the top of the thread, but the Amtrak trains blow through there pretty swiftly.
Carl, could you mean Lemont instead of Lockport? In Lockport, the old C&A runs behind a row of buildings west of the road, which I believe is one of the original configurations of Route 66. Unless you mean Commerce Street, which to me is more like an alley.
But the buildings come very close to the tracks there, too. These scenes remind me of what you see on model train layouts, where there is never enough room.
PZ
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