Early Alco road switchers ran long end first??

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

But remember, the guys running them in those days had just gotten off steamers (some weren't even off yet!) and they were used to looking down that big long boiler (even on a mogul or light mike). That relatively low and narrow (by steam standards) long hood probably looked pretty good to them.

And with the Alcos smoking so much already it was a natural assumption that it was an enclosed steam locomotive and the stack needed to go forward........

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

The "C" was just a truck modification, a three axle truck with centre idler axle, in place of the AAR Type B truck. So above the frame, an RSC-3 was just an RS-3. There were RSC-2s as well, but I don't think there were any RSC-1s (but I'm ready to be corrected on that).

More changes were needed for the three motor truck, so the RSD-4 was the equivalent of the RS-3 with six motors. It was found that a bigger generator would be good with six motors, so they built the RSD-5. There were no RS-4 or RS-5 built (ie no equivalent models with four axles and four motors).

The higher hood started with the RS-10 and RS-11. The six motor equivalent of the RS-11 was the RSD-12.

So the NSW units looked like the older units, although the cab was a different profile.

Peter

There were MRS1s.These had 6 wheel trucks.Alco built them during WW2 for use overseas.Most of these were owned by the Army. I don't know if the center axle was powered or not .Maybe someone can help on that point.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

We didn't really fini***he "RS-2 and 3 in passenger service" part of your question. RS-2 and RS-3 units were purchased new for suburban service by Rock Island and Boston and Maine, and were used by the Milwaukee Road and C&NW for branch line services connecting to "Hiawathas" and "400s". These units had steam heating boilers in the short hoods. Many other roads used them in pssenger service of one kind or another. They also used RSC-2 units for branch line passenger trains on light track. The RS types were not used much on prestige trains, but on most others, whether main or branch line.

Peter

We -- Central Vermont -- had RS-3s, RS-11s and GP-7s with steam generators in the short hood, and a nuisance they were, too. We used them on prestige passenger service (for instance, the Ambassador) for quite a while. The CV always ran long hood first, right up to the spin-off. The steam generator equipped GP-7s were easy to spot -- torpedo boat style air tanks and no dynamics.

[daveklepper]

On the B&M, 1952-1953, an RS2 (I thought it was an RS3) occasionally substituted for GP7's 1567 and 1568 that had the normal assignment of working the 4pm Boston - Portsmouth, NH passenger and returned on the Portsmouth - Summerville Yard freight. None of these locomotives were turned as Portsmouth, so if we started from Boston long-end first we came back short-end first. Where did RS3's pull prestige trains? Before and after the ex-SF Baldwin Sharks, 2 RS3s handled both the Laurentian (now Amtrak's Adarondak) and the overnight Grand Central - Montreal Montreal Limited that competed with the Montrealer/Washingtonian. Again, on the D&H, locomotives were often not turned and could be seen long-end or short-end first. Also, let us not forget the tremendous contribution Alco road-switchers made in Iran during WWII. There was a TRAINS article on that some time ago, and I also remember in a very old issue of Railroad Magazine "Caboose Chaplain." Dave Klepper

[M636C]

Dave,

We didn't really fini***he "RS-2 and 3 in passenger service" part of your question. RS-2 and RS-3 units were purchased new for suburban service by Rock Island and Boston and Maine, and were used by the Milwaukee Road and C&NW for branch line services connecting to "Hiawathas" and "400s". These units had steam heating boilers in the short hoods. Many other roads used them in pssenger service of one kind or another. They also used RSC-2 units for branch line passenger trains on light track. The RS types were not used much on prestige trains, but on most others, whether main or branch line.

Peter

[PNWRMNM]

While manufacturers doubtless has their "standard" layout, which end ran first was a railroad option. In Pacific Northwest for example, GN ran alcos and all GP and SD up to GP-30 long hood front for grade crossing protection. NP ran their GP short hood first.

Mac

[CShaveRR]

The C&O had a pair of RS3s that were set up to operate short hood first. They seem to be an exception.

[M636C]

Dave,

The "C" was just a truck modification, a three axle truck with centre idler axle, in place of the AAR Type B truck. So above the frame, an RSC-3 was just an RS-3. There were RSC-2s as well, but I don't think there were any RSC-1s (but I'm ready to be corrected on that).

More changes were needed for the three motor truck, so the RSD-4 was the equivalent of the RS-3 with six motors. It was found that a bigger generator would be good with six motors, so they built the RSD-5. There were no RS-4 or RS-5 built (ie no equivalent models with four axles and four motors).

The higher hood started with the RS-10 and RS-11. The six motor equivalent of the RS-11 was the RSD-12.

So the NSW units looked like the older units, although the cab was a different profile.

Peter

[Kozzie]

Peter - I'm a bit slow today - being Monday and all...
....but did the RSC-3 look smiliar to the later high hood Alco road switchers e.g. RS-10, RS-17 etc, rather than the earlier RS1,2 3 & 4s with the lower overall hood height?

Dave
(Kozzie)

[M636C]

The NSW locomotives were built in Montreal because Australia could buy things from Canada without having to pay in US dollars. There was a dark rumour that the first two were built at Schenectady and shipped up to Montreal, to show them what the special cut down cab had to look like. But I'm sure Montreal didn't need that. Montreal was a subsidiary of Alco until 1968, when Alco closed down.

The cut down cab on the Australian units didn't include the hood top windows. So it made long end leading operation just a bit more difficult. It wasn't much lower, but it sloped in at the sides like the Military RSD-1 cabs.

The train I saw with the RSC-3 running long hood leading was the Northbound "North Coast Daylight Express" at Kempsey, NSW while I was spending some time on a farm there belonging to the family of one of my school friends, in 1964. I didn't get a photo, but my friend did. We caught the return of that train back home several days later.

During the weekend before last, we had a number of special trains, one of which was an empty transformer wagon being transferred. It was limited to 40km/h so it was amazing just how many photos you could get of it!

But it had one of the few remaining "Freight Brake Vans", our equivalent of a caboose, trailing and I took a couple of shots of it, even though it often appears at the front of steam hauled trains as a crew car.

I feel sure I'm becoming old, bitter and twisted. But not that quickly, I hope!

Peter

[Kozzie]

Hi drephpe. [8D]

Re. your comment: "...on the Rock, Santa Fe, Katy and Cotton Belt (where they pulled passenger trains), ....." Passenger trains behind RS1 and RS2 Alcos was something I wouldn't have expected. I guess they were short line services?

That makes for another interesting spin for the layout! he he

Yes, we have plenty of grouches down here. You've only got to drive on the road! Groan!

Hopefully, the grouches won't join the Trains Forum.

Sadly, no loose Cabeese...or even penned up ones ha ha[(-D]

But I sure run them on my layout! I don't worry about them being out of date...I like to see them on the end of a train - even if it's just in my garage! [:(]

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

I too remember them running long hood forward, at least on the Rock, Santa Fe, Katy and Cotton Belt (where they pulled passenger trains), which is where I saw them the most, and the throttle stands were set up that way on almost all of them. But remember, the guys running them in those days had just gotten off steamers (some weren't even off yet!) and they were used to looking down that big long boiler (even on a mogul or light mike). That relatively low and narrow (by steam standards) long hood probably looked pretty good to them. And there was the collision safety issue as well--much better long hood first, but played against the overall visibility issue as we got more and more diesels with better fields of view.

Seen any loose cabeese lately?

I really enjoy your and Peter's discussions about things in Oz. A fascinating place-would love to see it firsthand sometime. The Australians I have met up here have, to a one, been some of the most congenial people I have ever met--don't you guys have any old grouches at all down there????

[Kozzie]

Hey UPTRAIN!

I guess that's the beauty of the older Alco road switchers? One could see along the top of the hood, not just along the sides?

Kozzie[8D]

[UPTRAIN]

I had a NS GP50 with a high nose a couple weeks ago and had to switch with it long hood forward...thank God I work for UP!!!!!!!!!!

[Kozzie]

Thanks Jim - I was hoping one of the Alco gurus would comment.

At one of our Model RR shows, a passerby (obviously a rude rivet counter) looking at a particular exhibition layout got quite "het up" about an Alco RS-1 running short nose first - good grief! What a catastrophe! Is that all he had to worry about that day?

You mentioned that as time passed, they changed ends. Did that mean major changes to the control stand?

Kozzie

[Kozzie]

Hey Pete! "...I have (once) seen a fast passenger train run with one of these with the long hood leading." sounds very different! Was it a main line service?
Sure gives a lot of leeway when running models, and frustrating those over-critical "rivet counters" ha ha[:D]

Was the NSW Class 40 based on the Alcos, even though built in Montreal?

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

Yes Peter is right. [:)]

It was normal during the early days for diesel engines to run long hood forward. As time passed they changed ends. I remember reading a story about the L & N getting some Alcos and they were actually short hood forward but noone realized this and had them turned long hood forward. The switch crew that day needed an extra person to tell the engineer what to do as he couldn't see the hand signals.

The Alco RS 1, 2, and 3s were some of the best looking locos ever made in my opinion. They were simply "Classic". There were 2 RS3 s for sale recently and both sold fairly quick. Just goes to show that a 50 year old unit can STILL do the job it was intended to do. Let's see someone ba***HAT. Show me a 50 year old "__" unit still going, and I don't mean EMD either. [}:)] [;)] [:)]

[M636C]

Kozzie,

As far as I know, most Alco Road Switchers up to the RS-3 (and some units well after that) were set up with the control stand facing along the long hood. This was indicated by the letter "F" for front usually on the frame side next to the steps, at the long end. If the controls were set up the other way, the "F" was painted at the other (short hood) end. This would show up in builder's photos, if there is any question. With the introduction of low noses, most units were set up with the short hood at the front.

This didn't mean that the locomotive didn't run short hood first, since the driver could sit facing inward, and look towards the short hood while keeping his right hand on the control stand.

The NSW RSC-3s built at Montreal ("40 class") had the control stands set up like this, but had the brake stand arranged to face the short hood on the same side, and these units were fitted with pilots at the short hood end only. This meant the driver always faced inward, and worked the controls with his right hand and the brakes with his left. Fortunately he was then on the left side of the loco which was the correct side for NSW signals, when the short hood was leading. I have (once) seen a fast passenger train run with one of these with the long hood leading. The fireman must have been calling the signals, because there was no way the driver could see them.

I think many GP7s and SD7s and some GP9s and SD9s were set up with the long hood as lead also, as well as Baldwins and Fairbanks Morse units.

Southern and Norfolk and Western continued this practice and kept high noses up until the GP50 and SD50 era, when they gave up just before becoming NS. This was said to give better protection for crew in case of grade crossing accidents.

Peter

[Kozzie]

I've seen photos (both model trains and "12 inches to the foot scale") of the early RS series of Alco switchers (RS-1, RS-2 etc) pulling a freight with the long end first, and some shots with the short end first.

What was the preferred practice?

Maybe Jim (jhhtrainsplanes) and other Alco gurus can help here...

Cheers [:D]

Kozzie