Early Alco road switchers ran long end first??

[M636C]

Just to complete the reference to locomotives with higher short hoods, C&NW 1688, an RSD-5, was another example of this type, with both a steam generator and dynamic brakes.

Peter

[Kozzie]

Hey Crew! [:D]

Looks like the Alco line switchers just keep on popping up! [:D][:D]

I've just bought the May issue of Trains Mag, and an article about the St Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR has some good shots of of RS2s and 3s doing freight work, switching and snowplow work as well.
Very interesting reading!

A big Thank You to Ben Bachman (article and photos) & the Trains Mag staff for such good articles! [:D][:D]

Kozzie[;)]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

LV 211 (ex-PRR) had a steam generator and dynamic brake as described by Peter and was known as a "hammerhead". C&NW also had an RSD4 or RSD5 (help me with specifics) with a similar appearance.

[M636C]

Dave,

I think in the same issue (Classic Trains Spring 2004) there is an overhead photo of Utah Railway RSD-5s (or maybe RSD-4s) which show no boiler stack but the dynamic brake vent near the front of the short hood. There were a couple of units that had both dynamic brakes and a boiler, and the hood was extended up to the top of the cab roof. Just another comment while we're on the subject!

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

The standard boiler fitted RS-2 and RS-3 had an exhaust stack located next to the cab in a streamlined casing located between the hood top windows on the short hood end.

The photo on pages 8 and 9 of Classic Trains Spring 2004 shows the stack casing on New Haven 532 very clearly.

The Milwaukee RS-3 locomotive illustrated elsewhere does not show this stack.

Peter

Thanks Peter [;)] I've just checked those photos and I've worked out what you are referring to. I ahd looked at thos photos yesterday, but it sure helps when you know what you are looking at! ha ha[:D]

TRhis thread has been ery helpfull - I had no idea the Alco RS line switchers were used in such a variety of ways. [;)]

Dave
(Kozzie)

[M636C]

Dave,

The standard boiler fitted RS-2 and RS-3 had an exhaust stack located next to the cab in a streamlined casing located between the hood top windows on the short hood end.

The photo on pages 8 and 9 of Classic Trains Spring 2004 shows the stack casing on New Haven 532 very clearly.

The Milwaukee RS-3 locomotive illustrated elsewhere does not show this stack.

Peter

[Kozzie]

Well...I took up Peter' s suggestion and bought the Spring 2004 issue of Classic Trains (looks like the Winter 2003 issue has gone from the newsagents..[:(])

On page 76 of the Spring 04 issue there is a good shot of an RS3 of the Milwaukee Road pulling a combine and coach, resplendant in the Milwaukee livery. And it's running short end first...hmmm. the variations just keep on coming....[:)]

Peter, drephpe and anyone else...was there a way of knowing, just from general observation, if one of the Alco RS series switchers used for passenger service had a steam boiler under the short hood? [%-)]

Kozzie

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Without trying to labour the point, there are photos of RS-3s in secondary service in the last two issues of Classic Trains. The Winter 2003 issue shows some NYC trains, and the Spring 2004 issue includes some Milwaukee trains.

On page 49 of the Winter issue, a pair of NYC RS-3s are seen coupled short hoods together on a train with two baggage cars leading, typical of the trains being described.

Peter

Thanks Pete - I've never really looked at the Classic Trains magazine very much, but it sounds like something to check out. I'm not sure if I can still get a Winter issue, but will give it a go - pester the local newsagents heh heh! [:)]

Kozzie

[M636C]

Without trying to labour the point, there are photos of RS-3s in secondary service in the last two issues of Classic Trains. The Winter 2003 issue shows some NYC trains, and the Spring 2004 issue includes some Milwaukee trains.

On page 49 of the Winter issue, a pair of NYC RS-3s are seen coupled short hoods together on a train with two baggage cars leading, typical of the trains being described.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Look's like ya know a lot more than yer lettin on. Great string.

Thanks drephpe. [:)] I have picked a fair bit of info, but nothing like the operational experience of RR crew or ex-RR crew.
Also, not actually living in the US does slow me down a bit when it comes to following US RRs - that's where Trains Mag, Model Railroader and all you lot "up over' and "down under' folk like Peter (M636C) come ine [:)]

As you said before, keep it rolling! All good stuff! [:D]

Dave (Kozzie)

[Anonymous]

Look's like ya know a lot more than yer lettin on. Great string.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Ya know, by the time we get through, ol' Kozzie's going to have so much info on this he won't know what to model and his head will explode. This is all great regional data that should be interestng to lots of us. Kozzie and Peter are getting me, for one, very tuned in to what goes on down under. But all of it is fascinating. The new Monon stuff is great. Lets keep it rolling!

[:)] Thanks drephpe! Hopefully, my head won't explode [:(] Yuk! I'm just stoked that I've started a thread that is of interest to others, not just myself.

I don't know a great deal about trains, (other than my personal experience as a commuter and train traveller etc) nothing like some of the crew in the Forum, but hopefully, I can start stuff, sometimes with a question, and just let others make contributions and see where it goes....so far I haven't attracted to much attention from the overly ciritical types...best thing is just ignore them anyway.

It introduces new ideas for running the layout...[:D]

Cheers

Dave (Kozzie)

[Anonymous]

Ya know, by the time we get through, ol' Kozzie's going to have so much info on this he won't know what to model and his head will explode. This is all great regional data that should be interestng to lots of us. Kozzie and Peter are getting me, for one, very tuned in to what goes on down under. But all of it is fascinating. The new Monon stuff is great. Lets keep it rolling!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Monon ran RS2's and C420's in passenger service on the Thoroughbred between Chicago and Louisville. By the time I began watching trains regularly, it was down to about 4 or 5 head-end and 1 coach. One of the head-end cars was a rebuilt troop sleeper (looked like a box car) and the coach was a rebuilt US Army ambulance car.

[Anonymous]

And the same best wishes to all you gentlemen and ladies out there in forum land!

[M636C]

Dave,

Off the top of my head, the code of the vehicle you mention was CLV (for composite lavatory van), but I'll have to check that. If you are working in HO, Lima produced a South African equivalent that looked sufficiently close for many purposes.

drephpe

The bad news is that the Sydney -Murwillumbah XPT service (and all service on that line from the junction at Casino) will cease soon. There is talk of substituting underfloor-engined railcars on the Western XPT service to Dubbo.

But the rest of the NSW passenger services are set to remain as is for now. There is no sign of new equipment (none for ten years now!)

And yes, I would have been considered like a Yankee (from at least Massachusetts) in the Deep South, maybe Alabama!

Again, happy Easter to all on the forum!

Peter

[Kozzie]

hey drephpe! I've been busted! [:0] Pete was right - [:D]

- I guess my interest in mixed trains does come partly from Queensland Railways practices.

I remember my Father telling me about a mixed train that used make a run out to the far western districts of southern Queensland, finally ending the run at a far flung town called Dirranbandi. He reckoned that they used to call it the "Flying Flea" (ha ha ha [(-D][(-D] ) because it went reasonably fast, but was quite short....not a bad name...

Hey Peter!

There is another Queensland Railways brake van (caboose) that had the guards compartment at one end, and the rest was seating for passengers
(I guess a type of "combine"?) but I don't know what it was called.
Do you remember them? I think it was three letters, starting with BV...

drephpe, a "segunda en el mixto" sounds like a nightmare!

You also have busted me [:0]- another reason I would like to run a US mixed is all that switching! I quite like all that as a break from continuous running...

Before I forget - everyone have a great Easter long weekend! [:)]

Cheers

Dave
(Kozzie)

[Anonymous]

Peter-

Great info! Thanks! Always love to see or hear about bizarre equipment. Others out there probably do, too. Is there a picture you can post , or maybe a link??? Looks like there's really no big difference between a KKB van and a segunda en el mixto, except the segunda didn't have partitions--the chickens, pigs and sheep just hung around with los pasajeros y el garrotero (brakemen to us, guard to you), ya know: Libertad, Equalidad, Fraternidad para todos los creaturas de Dios (en el coche segundo clase)-- Viva Mexico, Viva Queensland (????)!! Never to be seen again--they privatized FNM and the US partners saw to it they dumped what was left of the pax svc ASAP.

Those cattle trains must be a sight to see. SG or NG? How far are they allowed to run before they have to put the cattle off to rest? I assume the distance is reasonable, otherwise they couldn't compete with trucks.

And you're absolutely right about anything and everything on pax trains up here near the end. Some of it was intentional. Those flexi's were likely carrying bulk mail; ATSF did the same in the 60's, with a set of dedicated container flats (well before that was the "in" thing to do) carrying storage mail. Had some on the Grand Canyon and, if I recall right, SF Chief, back when I rode in 1967. ATSF still had a class operation at that time.

Kozzie--

RE: RS-1's, picked up a copy of April's Railmodel Journal last night and, lo and behold, here's an article by a guy talking about the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic (DSSA) up in the frozen north (MN, WI, MI upper peninsula) that says the locomotive of choice on their main pax run (2-car, so you can easily model it-he has a HW coach and HW comb baggage/RPO) from Superior WI through to the Soo Line (who ultimately bought them) was an RS-1.

FYI, with Gunn, ATK has dropped the MHCs but is still pulling some roadrailers on some trains. Don't get me wrong--he's doing about the best anyone can, but #58 going on the ground last nite isn't going to help a bit.

And, both of you, given your current spatial orientation, does being a "southerner who is just visiting" make Peter sort of like a #&%@!Yankee?????? (You don't have to answer that!)[(-D]

Kozzie--are the local QL HST clone services still in jeopardy, or did the politicians see the light?? Peter, that may apply to you too--were they trying to gut your services also??

It's a lot of fun conversing back & forth with you two blokes, hope we're not getting too far afield of the subject of the string.

[M636C]

drephpe,

You should note that you are addressing a real Queenslander in Kozzie. The QR had the ultimate in composite vehicles, the class KKB van. This was a Brake Van, the equivalent of a caboose, but it had a short compartment at one end for the "guard" as he was known. In the middle was a compartment (without a roof) for ten cattle, and at the far end a compartment for drovers (cowboys in American) accompanying the cattle. During my short period with the QR, I remember checking out one of these that had had its incandescent electric light (bulbs) replaced by fluorescent tubes with a transistorised inverter to provide the high frequency AC current required.

I was always a southerner who was just visiting, as far as the locals are concerned. QR still runs cattle trains, often hauled by 4000HP electric locomotives working from 25kV overhead lines.

But to get a bit closer to the topic, pretty much anything does go. In "Streamliner Memories", there is a photo of a side door "Flexi-Van" painted in IC brown and orange performing head end duties on that system. For those who don't remember the 1950s, a "Flexi-Van" was like a Road Railer, but it dropped its wheels and was loaded onto a flatcar via a central turntable. The end result looked like a container on a flatcar, but shipping companies hadn't thought of that yet.

We had Flexi-Vans in Australia, but none had side doors! The vans eventually fell apart, and here the flat cars just became container flats.

For current modellers, Amtrak have run RoadRailers on their trains, as well as the more common "Material Handling Cars".

Peter

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

Not an unusual sight at all, mate, provided they are express boxcars (if they're on the front) and the Alco (preferably an RS2 or 3) has a steam generator (unless it's summer and the cars have other than steam ejector A/C). You probably ought to hang at least 1 bag and probably an RPO, or perhaps use an RPO/bag combine, and REX box or two with maybe some RR express boxes (generally somewhat different paint and high-speed trucks--something that would lend an interesting air just by itself). Or (1) put the boxcars on the back, possibly with a caboose, OR (2) bite the bullet, put mixed freight on the front, hang an old coach or combine on the rear, and call it a mixed train. FYI the T&NO (SP eastern lines) ran a Dallas-Beaumont mixed every night up through the early 50's, using a 60' combine and a really neat 40' (YES, 40'!) Harriman RPO. The cars used to be available in brass (probably still are on the used market), and I think MR had drawings about 40-50 years ago if you have access to some old ones.

My recollection (help me out, NJ & NY types) is the NYSW (Susquehanna--"Suzy Q") up in NJ/NY ran RS1's on some of their commuter trains.

And Erie certainly used RS's on theirs.

I think if you ask around here, you'll find lots of guys who recall RS's on passenger trains all over the US, usually secondary runs or at the end of service.

You can find articles on the express box cars. Here are some examples: CRIP, ATSF, some MKT and probably lots of others were green. Some had Allied full cushion trucks, at least initially. PRR had a whole fleet of converted X29's (red). The rest of Katy's were Sloan Yellow like the others except they had "Railway Express Agency Storage Mail" stenciled below "The Katy Serves the Southwest". MP/T&P painted theirs Eagle scheme blue and gray etc.. Also consider a converted troop sleeper or two, painted green--lots of roads had various versions including CB&Q/C&S/FW&D--I understand Walthers or somebody now has some credible plastic kits of various mutations of ex-troop sleeper baggage/express cars.

Or go native! Try the NdeM--anything goes, particularly on a mixed! Including a caboza on the rear behind the coche (segunda, of course), and pigs, chicken, sheep, etc.

In thinking about it, what you're suggesting would not only be unusual, but would be a short train generally true to prototype, and it could switch more if it were a mixed.

Let us know how it turns out.[8D][C):-)]

[Kozzie]

Hey drephpe and Peter [:)]

So an Alco RS-1 (for example) with a few boxcars, than a few coaches wouldn't be an unreasonable sight on a layout.... Another variety of train to run! [:D]

Dave

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

No, in the Cotton Belt case usually baggage cars carrying bulk mail (storage mail), and an RPO/bag combination. Some trains also included box cars and reefers equipped with steam lines (Railway Express had quite a fleet, and so did some of the individual railroads). Toward the end, you might also see boxcars etc on the rear, along with TOFC.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Head End cars were usually parcels or mail. They were sometimes box cars (if they had trucks that allowed them to run at passenger speeds) but mostly baggage cars with an occasional travelling post office. Amtrak's current "Material Handling Cars" are quite typical. They were usually railroad owned, but some cars were lettered for the "Railway Express Agency", effectively a parcels service (like UPS today). There were some trains that were mainly run for mail and parcels, but had a coach attached for any passengers on offer.

I remember seeing the "Westlander" at Ipswich in 1993 with twelve refrigerator cars and about six passenger cars, and thinking "just like an American train".

Peter

Hey Peter [:)]

I've never taken the Westlander trip, but I've noticed it leaves Brisbane's Roma Street Station in the early evening, and climbs the Great Dividing Range to Toowoomba in the dark! All that interesting curves and tunnels but in darkness...It's not scheduled to reach Dalby till Midnight! (next major town, and not that far away) [:(]
Good grief! [:0]

I realise the climb to Toowoomba is a very old, slow speed alignment, but after Toowomba, one would think it could 'get a move on' across the Darling Downs.

Kozzie[;)]

[M636C]

Head End cars were usually parcels or mail. They were sometimes box cars (if they had trucks that allowed them to run at passenger speeds) but mostly baggage cars with an occasional travelling post office. Amtrak's current "Material Handling Cars" are quite typical. They were usually railroad owned, but some cars were lettered for the "Railway Express Agency", effectively a parcels service (like UPS today). There were some trains that were mainly run for mail and parcels, but had a coach attached for any passengers on offer.

I remember seeing the "Westlander" at Ipswich in 1993 with twelve refrigerator cars and about six passenger cars, and thinking "just like an American train".

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Kozzie--

RE: Cotton Belt Pax. No, they were RS-3's on a lot of their line haul trains. By that time, there wasn't much to their service. Usually 3-4 head end and a couple of coaches made it down to Dallas from St. Louis, after they had pulled out of Ft Worth and pulled the diner-loungesand sleepers off in the early 1950's. They had the fastest line to Memphis but one of the slowest to St. Louis because they went up the east side of the Mississippi River from Arkansas thru East St. Louis andthen back across. So not much business by that time. The only other pax units they had was a couple of Daylight PA's and the only FP7 ever painted Daylight (all modified with a silver roof).

Hi drephpe

At the risk of being a dumb question...but....When you say "..3-4 head end" you mean freight cars? That makes it quite an interesting mixed train to run on a smaller layout like mine at home. Plenty of "mucking around" switching here and switching there...[:D]

Kozzie [;)]

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

RE: Cotton Belt Pax. No, they were RS-3's on a lot of their line haul trains. By that time, there wasn't much to their service. Usually 3-4 head end and a couple of coaches made it down to Dallas from St. Louis, after they had pulled out of Ft Worth and pulled the diner-loungesand sleepers off in the early 1950's. They had the fastest line to Memphis but one of the slowest to St. Louis because they went up the east side of the Mississippi River from Arkansas thru East St. Louis andthen back across. So not much business by that time. The only other pax units they had was a couple of Daylight PA's and the only FP7 ever painted Daylight (all modified with a silver roof).

[M636C]

Doggy,

In two words: "Turbocharger Lag". When the 244 engine was introduced it was, by a long way, the most highly rated four stroke diesel ever built to that date. The "boost", the increase in pressure in the cylinders resulting from the air being compressed by the turbocharger, was more than double that usual at the time. To take advantage of the higher pressure and the extra oxygen in the combustion chamber in the cylinder, more fuel was injected.

This was fine while you were running at a given notch, seven or eight, when the turbo was running, but when you first notched up, the fuel being injected inceased first, but the turbo was still trying to "Spool up" to speed. There was more fuel than there was air to burn it, and it came out unburned as thick black smoke.

It was a problem that mainly occured during acceleration of the diesel engine.

Engine designs got better, but Alcos and GEs still suffer from this problem, although modern electronic fuel injection systems can reduce it to an acceptable level.

The German MTU 1163 engines in the Australian Navy's ANZAC class Frigates still do this when manouvring to berth (although some crews prefer to manouvre with the gas turbine, which burns about four times the fuel but does it cleanly).

Peter

[kenneo]

Doggy --- we already had quite a thread on that (encased in another thread about GE's and EMD's that went all over the locomotive picture - turbo's, fuel use, prime mover specs and id's, yada yada), but the simple answer was the type of turbo charger they used. It wouldn't advance with the fuel use but always followed it, so there was not enough air to fully combust the fuel.

[Anonymous]

Why did they have so much smoke?

DOGGY