Mark...did you read my posts? Why would I get run down by an inatttentive crew?
This concept of supervision is intrigueing if only for the times we do accept it. Any sport team would not survive a game without at least a coach, if not a coach and staff, watching and suggesting what each player must do and how the entire game is played out. I mean we've got professional ball players here who know what their position is, know the rules, and know how to play the game. But instructions come in from the sidelines, the bench, or the dugout. Other businesses have supervisory personnel overseeing operations and people. There are some jobs, yes, where you can't look over the shoulder and coach or direct. And railroading is a mix of both. Micro management is often overkill for many situations but neglecting to manage is just as defeating, especially for morale. What you have to have is a well educated and trained staff aboard a train that is capable and understanding to take direction from the ground but also be trusted to do what is safe and effecient at any given time without supervision: it is a team of all involved. Any additional help from any device from air brakes to wayside signals to radio communications to train control and traffic control is welcomed. But again, crews and management all have to be on the same page and work together. Unmentioned, but implied, is that they all have to trust the system, each other, and themselves to make it work.
The concept of attention is important. Much research has been done on attention, concentration, and effeciency. Early (WWI I believe) research showed sentries would be come bored and lose concentration in total silence. A noise would increase attention but could also be distracting. The introduction of music, believe it or not, was found to be a device (for lack of a better term at the moment) that kept them alert and efficient. Thorugh the years it was found that different tempo's, volume, rhythm's, orchestration, familiarity of music, etc., could actually control attention and work quality.
So what does a solo engineer need to keep his attention level and quality of work at its highest level? Nothing that distracts from his concentration, nothing loud enough to cover up sounds that need to be heard nor devices that needs adjusting or anyother input from the individual. So what can anybody suggest from here? Is there a practical soulution?
The one worst job in railroading I would assume is to be a motorman in a subway. Dark, gloomy with bursts of light at stations, for long periods of time...for many perhaps thier full work day...cramped into a space barely big enough to turn in, and by yourself. I admire them for what they do, but I don't want their job!
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MerrilyWeRollAlong wrote: I don't think having a second person in the cab to act as a second pair of eyes would make things safer. Wasn't there an accident in Chicago like a year ago where an Amtrak train rear ended a NS freight train even though there were 3 people in the cab? I believe the engineer was an engineer-in-training, the other two people were the instructors and all of them misread a signal telling them to stop? Perhaps someone from Chicagoland can verify this.
I don't think having a second person in the cab to act as a second pair of eyes would make things safer. Wasn't there an accident in Chicago like a year ago where an Amtrak train rear ended a NS freight train even though there were 3 people in the cab? I believe the engineer was an engineer-in-training, the other two people were the instructors and all of them misread a signal telling them to stop? Perhaps someone from Chicagoland can verify this.
There were only two people in the cab of that locomotive and they were both qualified engineers. One of the engineers was a relief engineer that should have been running the train and the engineer at the controls should have been back in the body of they train. This incident was caused by the engineer at the controls miss calling the signal at CP Ingelwood MP 515.8. He called out a slow approach signal but the signal was acctually a restricting signal (you cannot get a slow approach at CP Ingelwood). The other engineer failed to take action to try and prevent the accident..
In the cass of the MetroLink accident, it doesn't mater if there is one person in the cab or 5 people in the cab. This incident was caused by shear stupidity. Why the heck was he texting while he was operating.
Amtrak Road Foreman of Engines
henry6 wrote: The concept of attention is important. Much research has been done on attention, concentration, and effeciency. Early (WWI I believe) research showed sentries would be come bored and lose concentration in total silence. A noise would increase attention but could also be distracting. The introduction of music, believe it or not, was found to be a device (for lack of a better term at the moment) that kept them alert and efficient. Thorugh the years it was found that different tempo's, volume, rhythm's, orchestration, familiarity of music, etc., could actually control attention and work quality.
Ah, yes, the birth of Muzak.
zardoz wrote: Ah, yes, the birth of Muzak.
Did I say that outloud? But yes, Muzak based their marketing on those concepts. It does get pretty involved so I won't, and can't, go into it here. There are also white noise, black noise, etc. which some say is better than music, but that is only for masking ambient noises and not provide anything else. Music with lyrics tend to distract while instrumental is more subliminal in effect. Classical music is not a good general environmental music because of it often being in minor keys and has very low and very high volumed passages that will first lull you off and then startle you. So, I am not really suggesting Muzak, or necessarily other music, in the cab of a locomotive or cab car. But, ask if there is anything anyone else could suggest beyond the safety devices available or having a second person in the cab, too?
Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!
No. Training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.
Ulrich wrote:Mark...did you read my posts? Why would I get run down by an inatttentive crew?
The words ALONG and ON do not mean the same thing.. YES...I walk ALONG railroads...since when is that trespassing? ALONG can mean 50 feet away or even a few hundred feet away...no? Most trains around here run ON the tracks..
henry6 wrote:So what does a solo engineer need to keep his attention level and quality of work at its highest level? Nothing that distracts from his concentration, nothing loud enough to cover up sounds that need to be heard nor devices that needs adjusting or anyother input from the individual. So what can anybody suggest from here? Is there a practical soulution?
Ulrich wrote:The words ALONG and ON do not mean the same thing.. YES...I walk ALONG railroads...since when is that trespassing? ALONG can mean 50 feet away or even a few hundred feet away...no? Most trains around here run ON the tracks..
henry6 wrote:Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!No, training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.
No, training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.
selector wrote:Mark...shame on you...taking candy from "kids" like him.
henry6 wrote:Classical music is not a good general environmental music because of it often being in minor keys and has very low and very high volumed passages that will first lull you off and then startle you.
Yes, I am curious, too. I have been an avid classical listener all my life, and I know what you mean about its typical dynamics. Perhaps some of the subtleties might be lost against a pounding prime mover, but the dynamics tend to keep me interested, even anticipating, and not lulled. I may be wrong, but I find rock to be quite distracting overall, so it would not be a very good "fit" in my case.
On the other hand, my experience is in battle tanks, not in locomotives. In my case, we were required to attend to at least two radio nets simultaneously, to fight our own vehicle as the crew commander, and to lead the rest of the three tanks in our troop. No music there, except the sound of our "prime mover" labouring to get 50+ tons of heavy armour through sand and brush, up hills and down....well...not down. When the your headset crackled with someone talking, it got your attention real quick, especially if the speaker yelled, "Contact, wait, out!" That meant he had either been engaged or was about to engage an enemy force, and was going to broadcast the enemy's map grid reference as soon as he was safe from direct fire.
I know this is by the by, but context is important, ambient noise is important, and so on. I would think one's favourite music would either be inspiring or a nuisance, depending on what the task was at hand.
-Crandell
marknewton wrote: Ulrich wrote:The words ALONG and ON do not mean the same thing.. YES...I walk ALONG railroads...since when is that trespassing? ALONG can mean 50 feet away or even a few hundred feet away...no? Most trains around here run ON the tracks.."The other day I pulled a spike on a mainline..I see busted ties...I check things out first hand..."You pulled a spike, and can see busted ties from 50 feet away, or even a few hundred feet away? You're in the wrong game, in that case. You should sign up as a superhero.Mark.
. No superhero over here...I do break the law on occasion...but most people here do not EVER trespass..or EVER speed in their cars...or spit on the ground... or swear..or stretch the truth on their tax returns..thus it is you who are the superheroes...I sit here in humbled awe..
marknewton wrote: henry6 wrote:Classical music is not a good general environmental music because of it often being in minor keys and has very low and very high volumed passages that will first lull you off and then startle you.Interesting you should say that, as classical music seems to be preferred by a fair percentage of the blokes at work. Can you expand on this a bit? What are minor keys, for example? You've got me curious now.Cheers,Mark.
Should you really be listening to music that lulls you and then startles you at work? Hey... just askin... What are minor keys?... Are you serious???
selector wrote: I know this is by the by, but context is important, ambient noise is important, and so on. I would think one's favourite music would either be inspiring or a nuisance, depending on what the task was at hand. -Crandell
The train rolls down the rails as the engineer dances to his/her favorite dance tune....
The crew was singing along with two part harmony. "Hey - trainmaster. We need two more guys on the crew so we can form a Barbershop Quartet..."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Ulrich wrote: marknewton wrote: henry6 wrote:Classical music is not a good general environmental music because of it often being in minor keys and has very low and very high volumed passages that will first lull you off and then startle you.Interesting you should say that, as classical music seems to be preferred by a fair percentage of the blokes at work. Can you expand on this a bit? What are minor keys, for example? You've got me curious now.Cheers,Mark.Should you really be listening to music that lulls you and then startles you at work? Hey... just askin... What are minor keys?... Are you serious???
Yes, I am serious as there has been many studies about music and its effects on people. I like to compare the use of Ravel's Bolero to a Susa march as two extremes. The science of it is that having sounds, like music, in an ambient environment will allow the person or persons to be more responsive to other sounds around them while still being able to concentrate on the tasks at hand. In ambient situations...and that d$%*&! music on hold...classical music because of the variation of low and high passages is disconcerting to the ear and mind; the minor keys of classical music also has a negative effect on a persons emotional being in these situations; and there the effect that it is never completed during the time a person in exposed to it in public places. This is not putting down classical or anyother kind of music. The use of music in public places to cover sounds, to create environments that allow people to shop or work better, is quite different than listening to music for pleasure. For your listening pleasure, if you will, you will choose music you like and want to hear, then listen as attentivley as possible, ignoring all else around you. Ambient music is just something that is there, creating a pleasant environment to relax you and let you do what ever it is you are doing. Loud, intrusive music may make you leave the premises or distract you into not being able to handle the task at hand; too familiar music (especially music with lyrics as opposed to instrumental music) will often cause you to sing along thus distracting you from your task. Are all situations the same? No. But there are enough similarities in given situations to allow one type or style of music to be present. And so, getting back into the railroad engineer's cab there is a delima of choosing the right ambient noise or music for one individual. Again, then, my question, is, is there such an ambient noise/music solution in the engineer's cab?
ValleyX wrote:Without going into depth, it sounds as though Australian railroading must be far more user-friendly than working for the Class Ones in the USA.
Ulrich wrote:Silence is music to my ears. Everywhere you go these days the muzak is blaring...do you really need it in locomotive cabs too?
I have not been associated with Muzak (a brand name, registered trademark) in over twenty years. The research I statetd was done largely by the U.S. government with some college and businesses doing independent research as well. The product has changed considerably in several way. So, I am not advocating Muzak, or any music for that matter, in the cab but rather asking if something other than music is desireable or effective, and if so, what? Muzak--or again, any music-- in such small quarters as a commuter train cab, Iwould think, can be very distracting and intrusive.
ValleyX wrote: henry6 wrote: Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!No, training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.Infamous? Pray tell us more, I don't recall this.Today, you don't have enough crewmembers for a decent game.
henry6 wrote: Then there was the infamous Ohio wreck back in the 70's I believe, where everybody was back in the B unit playing cards!No, training, education, dedication, and intellegent oversight are the only things before and after a so called failsafe computer, or other safety stop device.
I am trying to find the detials...I checked the DOT ICC reports list and cannot find it...I do note that there are quite a few reports missing from thier on line file as I can recall being at several EL wrecks in the Southern Tier of New York which are not listed. But I will check the Trains magazines of that era sometime soon.
SRen wrote: Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster? I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake. Now I am not refering to "dumping the air" intervention here, just reminding an engineer that he should be operating at restricted speed or that he should be preparing to stop at the next signal are things that I occasionally have to do in the course of my duties. Have there been occasions were I felt that I may have just prevented an accident? YES!!!Before the Feds start insisting on mandating Positive Train Seperation technology maybe Amtrak and the commuter agencies should consider putting a second employee back into locomotive cabs. After all, Commercial Airliners fly with both a Pilot and Co-Pilot in the cockpit, why should passenger trains be any different?
Why hasn't anyone pointed out the fact that having passenger train engineers working alone in a locomotive cab is a recipe for disaster? I know from personal experience that having a second person in a locomotive cab can prevent accidents, as a frieght train conductor I have intervened on several occasions to prevent an engineer from making a mistake.
Now I am not refering to "dumping the air" intervention here, just reminding an engineer that he should be operating at restricted speed or that he should be preparing to stop at the next signal are things that I occasionally have to do in the course of my duties. Have there been occasions were I felt that I may have just prevented an accident? YES!!!
Before the Feds start insisting on mandating Positive Train Seperation technology maybe Amtrak and the commuter agencies should consider putting a second employee back into locomotive cabs. After all, Commercial Airliners fly with both a Pilot and Co-Pilot in the cockpit, why should passenger trains be any different?
I agree totally with the concept of two crew members on all passenger trains since they call out signals and double check the operation.
If you consider the cost of the accident after the lawsuits for the dead and injured, the amount of money for this one accident would pay for the second man in the cab of evey passenger train in America for many years.
And our leaders wrote a law to prohibit using a cell phone while operating a train. The law they wrote about using cells in automobiles in California has not prevented most from using the cells while driving. You can see people with their cell phone to their ears daily since they made it a law in July this year.
The real solution to this problem is to go back to steam locomotives on every passenger train since they would require a fireman and engineer. The solution is so simple and would add many jobs.
Sorry! I just could not help myself.
CN9625 wrote: You hit the nail right on the head, employee cutbacks are a major problem when it comes to public safety! If there was a second engineer 26 people WOULD still be alive today as he/she would have been there to see the signals and stop the train.
You hit the nail right on the head, employee cutbacks are a major problem when it comes to public safety! If there was a second engineer 26 people WOULD still be alive today as he/she would have been there to see the signals and stop the train.
Can you prove that? What about the head on in California when a BNSF train with BOTH engr. and condr. which overran a red signal at a junction had collided with a commuter train?
I think that engineer only train operation is safe. And it can be made safer with PTC.
But if we want another person in the cab, why does he/she have to be an employee on pay? Every one of the hundreds of people riding the train has a vested interest in the safe operation of that train.
Why not have a volunteer passenger ride in the cab with the engineer as an "Engineer Monitor" (EM?) The EM could call signals with the engineer and make sure the engineer complied with the signals. Running a locomotive, especially in passenger service, is not rocket science. Probably the biggest thing is estimating stopping distance. The EM would need some training on the operating rules; 40 hours would probably be enough.
Perhaps as an incentive the EM could be given a discount on his ticket. Or maybe a pass.
What we don't need is another employee to drive up costs.
clarkfork wrote: I think that engineer only train operation is safe. And it can be made safer with PTC.But if we want another person in the cab, why does he/she have to be an employee on pay? Every one of the hundreds of people riding the train has a vested interest in the safe operation of that train. Why not have a volunteer passenger ride in the cab with the engineer as an "Engineer Monitor" (EM?) The EM could call signals with the engineer and make sure the engineer complied with the signals. Running a locomotive, especially in passenger service, is not rocket science. Probably the biggest thing is estimating stopping distance. The EM would need some training on the operating rules; 40 hours would probably be enough.Perhaps as an incentive the EM could be given a discount on his ticket. Or maybe a pass. What we don't need is another employee to drive up costs.
EVERYBODY DUCK!!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
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