New York Police and Chicago Police arrested two notorious graffiti vandals that were part of a world-wide graffiti ring called "Made U Look". Jim Clay Harper, 23, Wilmette, IL, and Danielle Bremner, 26, New York, NY, were arrested after a two year investigation. Miss Bremner, tagger name "Dani", was arrested at O'Hare Airport in Chicago and Mr. Harper, tagger name "Ether", was arrested at John F. Kennedy Airport in New York. The pair had vandalized railroad equipment, bridges and overpasses all over the United States and in parts of Europe, including England, Spain and Germany. The pair are reportedly to be romantically involved. That first date must of been very interesting.
Mr. Harper, who has had artistic training, had posted several abstract works on an art website under his own name. His graffiti tags were incorporated into the art and led authorities to his real identity. Miss Bremner, who also has artistic training, had been under investigation for two years. The two graffiti vandals are suspected of painting and defacing historic rolling stock on display at the Indiana Transportation Museum, Noblesville, Indiana, in 2003. The vandal pair allegedly started their graffiti - vandalism orgainzation in the Chicago area (Hey Joe, are they friends of yours?).
Chicago authorities have recently strengthened its tools against graffiti vandals by moving hundreds of graffiti cases to judicial venues that are more likely to end up punishing convicted graffiti vandals. I hope that they get what's coming to them for vandalizing all of that property and rolling stock. The vandalism crowd will have to look for a couple of new heroes.
TonyM.
Another one of them police cases where they call a couple of tools world known so they can make it look like the graffiti game took a huge hit. Cops been doin it for years. I personally never knew them, never seen there work up close...why you asume i would know em is beyond me. Theres millions of graff artists in the US & World and very few are in anyway linked to one another, know one another, or have even layed eyes on any one of thier pieces. These 2 were far far from world known or even well known nationally. Ive seen more trains hit by Trede, Jase, Ich, Kerse.....i could go on and on. They may have caused millions in damage.....but try hundreds and hundreds of millions. Thats what other US artists have pulled off. These 2 made the dumbest mistake in graffiti, and thats giving cops the chance to tie your real name to your graff name. Every graff artist knows not to do that and yet these 2 thought it was ok for them to....morons.
I was sent this video below awhile back. I didnt care much for it til now but in the first part of the flik it shows Ether hittin a CTA train in Chi town dressed as a CTA employee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trR9qDd6zso
joegreen wrote: I was sent this video below awhile back. I didnt care much for it til now but in the first part of the flik it shows Ether hittin a CTA train in Chi town dressed as a CTA employee. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trR9qDd6zso
Link certanily shows that cars don't have to be away from the public eye to get tagged.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think this would be a good time to reinstate lopping off criminal's hands.
Tough and brutal, yes, but I am sure that if criminals knew that if they were caught that they would lose a hand, they would either be less likely to commit the crime, or they would try harder to not get caught.
Just giving the vandals a short period of time in jail and perhaps a fine is not sufficent of punishment, nor is it a successful deterant.
So many scales, so many trains, so little time.....
Railroader_Sailor_SSN-760 wrote: I think this would be a good time to reinstate lopping off criminal's hands.Tough and brutal, yes, but I am sure that if criminals knew that if they were caught that they would lose a hand, they would either be less likely to commit the crime, or they would try harder to not get caught.Just giving the vandals a short period of time in jail and perhaps a fine is not sufficent of punishment, nor is it a successful deterant.
Why stop there, lets hang those who get caught driving drunk. How about we stone those who are caught tresspassing.....
Too Bad more GRAFFITI VANDALS are not caught, I DO like the lopping off the hand punishment idea BTW. If someone makes a concious decision to damage, deface or steal another's property, I feel the consequences should be very SEVERE, it's not an ACCIDENT, they CHOSE to do it, and if the penalty is severe and they still CHOOSE to commit a CRIME, then they should have to accept the punishment. If Losing your hand, or whatever the penalty is, is too high a price for yoou to pay, then DON'T DO THE CRIME, very simple really.
Graffiti is NOT ART
If it Were ART they would be doing it to THEIR OWN PROPERTY. When you deface SOMEONE ELSE'S Property, it is no longer art, but VANDALISM, which IS a crime, as it should be.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
A little sedative and every tattoo artist in town with a mission would do wonders.
("IDIOT" across the forehead and an aerosol paint can suppository for openers.)
joegreen wrote: Railroader_Sailor_SSN-760 wrote: I think this would be a good time to reinstate lopping off criminal's hands.Tough and brutal, yes, but I am sure that if criminals knew that if they were caught that they would lose a hand, they would either be less likely to commit the crime, or they would try harder to not get caught.Just giving the vandals a short period of time in jail and perhaps a fine is not sufficent of punishment, nor is it a successful deterant. Why stop there, lets hang those who get caught driving drunk. How about we stone those who are caught tresspassing.....
As someone who has had close Friends Severely injured by drunk drivers(one Friend was VERY close to losing an arm at 19, and a second Friend who had part of his HIP bone used to rebuild his FACE)
And in the last Month my home was BURGLARIZED, I can AGREE to BOTH of those thoughts VERY easily. Make the consequences for deliberate actions VERY SEVERE, to the point that it is not just a slap on the wrist, but will make them reconsider committing a crime against another.
hmm, looks like its pointless for me to say anything about graffiti cuz yall will throw a fit....so ill just sit back and listen. Go ahead.....tell me how your gonna stop graffiti. Im listening...
alcodave wrote:chopping of hands of thieves and vandals? when the muslim countries do it we call them extremists and savage.
Nahhh... only when they fly plane loads of innocent civilians into skyscrapers filled with other innocent civilians is when we call them savages. Lopping-off hands for thieves and vandals - that's a redeeming quality.
I remember reading years ago, so it may have changed, that in one Central American country first offense drunk driving was punished by firing squad. Extreme, but it cuts down on repeat offenders.
Jeff
WIAR wrote: alcodave wrote:chopping of hands of thieves and vandals? when the muslim countries do it we call them extremists and savage.Nahhh... only when they fly plane loads of innocent civilians into skyscrapers filled with other innocent civilians is when we call them savages. Lopping-off hands for thieves and vandals - that's a redeeming quality.
I AGREE COMPLETELY, their sense of punishment fitting the crime is one of the few redeeming qualities that I admire in the Islamic culture.
jeffhergert wrote: joegreen wrote: Railroader_Sailor_SSN-760 wrote: I think this would be a good time to reinstate lopping off criminal's hands.Tough and brutal, yes, but I am sure that if criminals knew that if they were caught that they would lose a hand, they would either be less likely to commit the crime, or they would try harder to not get caught.Just giving the vandals a short period of time in jail and perhaps a fine is not sufficent of punishment, nor is it a successful deterant. Why stop there, lets hang those who get caught driving drunk. How about we stone those who are caught tresspassing..... I remember reading years ago, so it may have changed, that in one Central American country first offense drunk driving was punished by firing squad. Extreme, but it cuts down on repeat offenders.Jeff
Jeff, I believe that was Bolivia, whether that has changed I don't know, but would rather doubt it.
challenger3980 wrote: If it Were ART they would be doing it to THEIR OWN PROPERTY. When you deface SOMEONE ELSE'S Property, it is no longer art, but VANDALISM, which IS a crime, as it should be.
I couldn't agree more.
joegreen wrote: hmm, looks like its pointless for me to say anything about graffiti cuz yall will throw a fit....so ill just sit back and listen. Go ahead.....tell me how your stop graffiti. Im listening...
hmm, looks like its pointless for me to say anything about graffiti cuz yall will throw a fit....so ill just sit back and listen. Go ahead.....tell me how your stop graffiti. Im listening...
I don't know about "yall" and their reaction, but I am curious to know my enemy, and therefore hear what you have to say about what you feel justifies graffiti. Do you tag your own property, or do you only tag someone else's property. And how actually would you feel if someone else tagged your property?
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Apparently there are legitimate uses for spray paint, or at least there seems to be so much of it for sale that I hope some folks other than vandals buy and use it.
Also if you ban canned spray paint will the result be worth the effort? The vandals might just use cans and brushes more, or rig up their own small compressed air bottles, hoses and paint, or resort to a different medium, for example scratchiti, that is scratching their tag into the vehicle wall or windows with some sharp implement or steel wool. So you'd wind up inconveniencing the legitimate users and gain little in the vandalism war.
One example is pseudoephedrine. Out of our desire to stop methamphetamine makesrs it's now rather difficult to get it to treat your cold. Mind you I'm not making any judgment about if pseudoephedrine is always the best thing to treat all colds.
So I'd lean more on catching the bandits instead of reducing accesibility to their supplies.
Yes! YES!
joegreen wrote: hmm, looks like its pointless for me to say anything about graffiti cuz yall will throw a fit....so ill just sit back and listen. Go ahead.....tell me how your gonna stop graffiti. Im listening...
For starters, let's stop glamorizing it.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Yall are messing around with the "cut of the hand stuff" in a not to funny way.
You may want it now, but say you was along side the tracks on a public place with a parked train right beside you. A graffiti vandal comes up, and starts graffiti(ing) the car. He sees a cop coming from a distance, thrusts the can in your hands, and runs toward the police saying you were graffiti(ing) the car. Without any evidence other wise, the jury finds you guilty and you are condemned to your hand being cut off. Not happy, are you?
That is a possible senario. It can certainly vary.
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
.
.....Jeff, agree with you 100%.
Quentin
Joegreen is just going to sit back and "listen to us" because he knows that there is nothing, NOTHING he can say that will justify grafitti.
It is damage to property, plain and simple. It is vandalism, and it is criminal. If you guys are such "artists", then why don't you do something legitimate? Or, would that take away from your "art"? Honestly, all you people are is a bunch of vandals, creative is some cases, but vandals all the same.
Why don't you get permission to paint a mural, or perhaps an advertisement for a local business? Ask a building owner who might want a paint job on the outside, or inside of his building. Even better, open an auto detailing shop, and custom paint cars. Perhaps someone would be willing to pay you for your art.
Stopping it? We would love to. I know of some law enforcement types that would love to find away to stop people from doing this. Jail? That might work. Community service? Possibly. Forcing these people to clean up their mess, or face jail time, and fines? Sure, we could try that too.
Adjust your attitude so you will wake up and see what you are doing is illegal? I am not sure that's even possible. Most of the grafitti types I know of are self centered types who think that they can do what they want to whatever property they feel they can. Kid, did anyone ever tell you "if it's not yours, don't mess with it?" or, "If it's not yours, get permission to use it?. If they did tell you, did you understand the meaning of that statement?
Handle graffitti like Singapore does. Twenty whacks across the butt with a bamboo cane.
Intentional property damage paid off in permanent scars on the body.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
I don't mean, or want, to contribute to heaping scorn on Mr. "Green", but the irony in his name is obvious; doesn't sound like a very green, or responsible, act to tag something when no one can catch you, and when you don't own it in the first place, and when the tools of your trade are wasted paint sprayed in cans that are then discarded....where, exactly?
One of the principles in ethics is integrity. A person of integrity does the right thing when no one else will know the difference. I wonder what it is about tagging someone else's belongings when you feel certain you can't be caught that makes it right. If it is okay to do, do it where you can be watched by an appreciative audience. Call the authorities and the company managers and have a "showing" for their benefit. Raffle off the "art" and give some of the proceeds to charity. Legitimize what you do...if you think it is legitimate in the first place.
Or it may be that no one understands the act, so we can't appreciate it. Tsk...all us Bohemians out there should be ashamed of ourselves for our ignorance.
Just in graphic terms, I dislike the look of most graffiti. But I do wonder what exactly drives people to produce it. I use to think that most graffiti was done by gang bangers, but references that I have looked at say there is no stereotypical profile of a graffiti maker. However, I am skeptical of that assertion. I'll bet they have a lot in common. Graffiti itself seems like a quest for individual recognition, so it does not surprise me to hear graffiti makers as a group proclaim that they cannot be categorized.
The reason that I am curious about this is that there seems to be kind of schizophrenia among lawmakers and city officials that you would not expect in relation to other types of crime. There are a lot of apologists for graffiti makers among those who do not make graffiti. Why would law-abiding citizens defend graffiti? Even members of this forum seem to cut graffiti makers some slack. Oh sure they want to cut their hands off, but that is nothing compared to what they would do to grade crossing transgressors.
One expression of this schizophrenia is the subtle appeasement of graffiti makers by inadequate law enforcement on one hand, and on the other hand, a crackdown on property owners demanding that they remove graffiti within a short time or face a fine. It almost amounts to shifting the blame from the perpetrator to the victim.
Why is there a wish to publicly accommodate graffiti and legitimatize it by providing legal public surfaces? There is something oddly politically correct about graffiti; a kind of rage against the machine.
I don't think it is news to graffiti makers that what they are doing is illegal. I would guess that if it were somehow made legal, the graffiti makers would not consider it to be graffiti. Part of the graffiti "art" is the illegal theatre.
Here are some questions and answers:
Some sort of "rage against the machine"..... What "machine"? I think most people make up the whole thing in their minds to give them an excuse for doing stupid, illegal, and destructive things. Kind of like the whole "The Man" thing back in the 60's and 70's. I grow tired of rebellion for the sake of rebellion. I know what it's like to have an artistic side. I have that. I write prolifically, and rather enjoy it, but I do not elevate myself as being some sort of "enlightened" individual because I engage in an "art" form.
I read that whole FAQ... what a bunch of, well, you know. I don't understand the whole mentality. I figure it is done by a bunch of kids who have never had anyone say "no" to them. The two people giving the answers seem to not care about the illegality, and the destructiveness of what they are doing.
I would imagine, if we gave them a legal, public surface to paint on, they would consider that "selling out". Like the local punk bands I used to know back in the 80's when I worked in college radio at the local college. They would go on and on about how they "suffered for their art" and would never "sell out" but, yet, kept making music and hoping for a record deal so they could make money.......Isn't that "selling out"? Bucyrus is right, it is an almost schizophrenic mentality.
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