Murray wrote: I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.
Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
I disagree... He probably DID wave... We all know how condemned that action is around here.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.
SR1457 wrote:Give it up Keven, there isnt one soul on here that can do anything but offer their opinion, there are always 3 sides to a story, yours, theirs, and the truth! deal with it, all we have heard is your side, and just from your posts it seems that you may be a younger person, with a very hard head, something we all have gone through at one point in our life!
Well, I'm glad that 34 is still considered young.
As far as a hard head, no, I don't think so. I just haven't been able to get out railfanning for a few years, and the first time I go out, this happens. Now, I have been stopped by police before, and in that case, I can understand why it happened.
Back in the summer of 1995, some friends of mine and I were living just off the Heidelberg College campus in Tiffin, Ohio for the summer. During that summer, I was going over to the parking lot on the north side of campus along the CSX tracks on the weekends to catch the Broadway go through before Amtrak discontinued it that fall. One night, I was standing at the edge of the parking lot when a Tiffin cop shows up. He asks me what I was doing there, and I explained to him that I was out railfanning and waiting to watch the Broadway go through. He left. About a half hour later, another officer shows up on the street on the other side of the tracks and stops. That's when I saw the first officer pull up next to me again. Apparently the reason they were taking so much interest in me was because a resident by the tracks had seen me and called me in as somebody who appeared to be getting ready to commit suicide. I explained to them about my love of trains and about my layout that I had at my parents' house. They took down my information for their report that they had to file and left it at that.
Now, in that case, I can see sending somebody out to seriously check out somebody near the tracks. However, in the incident that happened yesterday, all anybody had to do was ask what I was up to rather than just falsely claim that what I was doing was illegal. That is where I'm having the issue with what happened.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
zugmann wrote: It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
Wrong... They know I'm a railfan. When I'm asked I tell them. Like I stated before, I've been told by railroad employees I've talked to while out railfanning and police officers who've stopped to make chit chat that if OTHER RAILFANS followed my example there would be fewer RAILFAN related problems for them to deal with.
It's clear to me that you prefer to fly below the radar when pursuing your passion. That's fine and I respect that. I, however, want everyone to see me and if there's any problem feel free to come over to talk to me. I'll tell you exactly who I am and what I'm doing. No deception there.
zugmann wrote: You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too.
Indeed, if you see the white Cherokee, word of it travels fast, and everyone is on the lookout. Chances are in larger terminals, you can do what you want unmolested.
On this property, we must ask to see I.D. of anyone who appears to be an employee on the property. Even cab drivers have them now.
My job is safety. I teach it, I observe it, I live it. I come in contact with everyone working in the terminal almost daily, or at least I try. That also includes those who work in out of town depots that are part of this terminal. If I see a person with a vest I don't know, I am asking questions. I will also inform the Roadmaster, Terminal Trainmaster, signal, B&B, or new construction of the situation. Most times they will say drop the dime, and they respond.
The safety and welfare of my fellow employees come first.
*Unless you are in an area where you had to hike, or there is nasty brush, ticks, etc.
I'm going to go out qucik for some ralfanning. I'm wearing a polo shirt, jeans, (my regular work apparel) but will leave behind the safety glasses and boots (I wore them all day yesterday.. enough of that crap).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
RRKen wrote: I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)? If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points. Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers? You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)?
If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points.
Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers?
You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
Well... I guess we agree to disagree.
I must be the only one here who believes that safety starts with me and by that I mean dressing conspicuously and in safety attire. I also suppose by your assertion that the guy I see every night riding his bike with a reflective vest on must be impersonating someone else too.
Also, while wearing a police uniform DOES constitute impersonation of a law enforcement officer, a crime... wearing safety attire DOES NOT constitute impersonation of anyone, no crime there. It's just a clear attempt at being safe... That's all.
They also have the right to ask reasonable questions from those people. You also have the right to tell them to pound sand... I wouldn't advise that, but...
Phoebe Vet wrote:When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple. Nothing really wrong with it. You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too. Kind of like the wannabes that drive ford police interceptors with spotlights and grill guards.
And no, I don't think railfans are going to start dressing up like MOW anytime soon. Usually the $1000 camera is hint enough for me.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken: Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...
Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken:
Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
There's a product that might have a market:
A vest or t-shirt that says "RAILFAN" in large reflective letters.
I agree that someone who LOOKS like a RR employee on or near RR property should be politely checked out.
I agree that someone ON RR property can be politely ordered off or even arrested if they have climbed a fence, passed a no trespassing sign, or are tampering with RR stuff.
HOWEVER...
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Ted Marshall wrote:C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...or a contractor where he doesn't belong.
One radio conversation I heard from a shared assets DS: "those contractors were told NOT to be on the tracks. If they are on the tracks when you go by, I'm sending out the police to arrest them!!"
DS was not happy. And I never heard the ending to the story...
RRKen wrote: Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest. If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.
That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest.
If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
And... What's that about my toast? My toast is my toast. They'd better not touch it.
RRKen wrote:If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan.
Oh, one more thing. Someone in HQ will send a memo out on the fine job the Female employee did. Some VP in Legal will copy out the memo to her supervisor, with a recommendation to be promoted. (a memo from the VP is never a recommendation, what it really means is, do it yesterday).
Thus is the reality of Railroading.
Murray wrote: I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.In short, you drew attention to yourself. You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.
From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
In short, you drew attention to yourself.
You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... When out railfanning, be as conspicuous as possible. Sorry Murray, but I disagree with your advice. By trying to be inconspicuous a person will lend the appearance of clandestinity, something that will warrant an all out code 3 response by the authorities if you are seen meddling about. Want to be mistaken as a possible threat? I don't.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk. It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
By being as conspicuous as possible and dressing appropriately, you convey the message that safety is important to you and that you wish to be seen at all times; no surprises. It also has the effect of causing passersby and undesirable element to leave you alone. This is particularly helpful, especially if you're in a not-so-friendly part of town.
Now... It's time to hear from the critics in the peanut gallery.
I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.
The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.
Since I happen to be both a railfan and a railroad employee I have been reading this posting with much interest.
First of all, the sum total of my post 9-11 "training" on how to deal with the terorist threat consisted of a 20 minute video wich sugested that I simply ask trespassers to leave railroad property and to be weary of anyone asking questions about railroad operations. That was it, the company did not train us to confront people who were not on railroad property much less yell and threaten them. Nor did the training video sugest that scanners and cammeras in and of themselves were a threat to the company.
Railroad employees who badger railbuffs on the grounds of security are most likely using security as an excusse to be jerks. It is as simple as that I am sorry to say. Most of my coworkers either ignore railfans or welcome them with open arms. It's only a small hand full who are openly abussive to railfans, mainly because they have defective personalities. Try not to feel to bad, just imagine if you had to work alongside (or worse under) these individuals. I suspect the woman who started this subject probably jumped on some poor coworker's case about something stupid after she chased off the original poster.
As long as you are not on railroad property I would recomend ignoring these individuals, just wave to them and smile since they have no authority over you if you are not trespassing. If they do call the police, fine then just move along and come back to the same location later.
Just remember, jerks are everywhere try not to let them get you down.
Scott
Perhaps the reason they are building the railfan park is to keep people away from the place the OP was chased out of.
But still, if they don't want photos taken there, they should put up some signs.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too. You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".
Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
I agree , I didn't mean to sound like I had all the facts. It was a soapbox post
Wow. where to start?
Let's see. The woman. You are assuming she is an employee. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. Who knows. Sure yelling at you isn't the way to go about it - but she probably didn't want to confront you (and if she was a RR employee, she was told not to confront anyone). Maybe she was having a bad day, or maybe she is a (insert derrogative term of your choosing here). But guess what? That's life.
Now the original poster. The letter was a little much. She didn't really harass you - just yelled misinformation at you. You could have smiled and waved. What's the worst that she could have done? Call the police? Meh. But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan. Sorry, that is the truth. Railfans get no respect from RR managers (and I'm saying this as a railfan and an employee).
So, welcome to life. Grow up and move on. You will always be taking flak for this hobby - so stop taking so much offense.
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.
OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?
Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.
I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them.
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