A Brilliant Idea!

[Mookie]

I like your first idea! But in most cases - I say get out and walk away. if you can't get to a phone to call for help, the price of a car is minimal, next to trying to shove it off the tracks and the possible result. Of course, even the Mook carries a cell phone (how stupid is that - I hate them) but for an emergency - so surely someone would be close by that would have a cell phone and call 911 and they will call the railroad - I have heard them do it on my scanner.

And for all of you that want to call the Mookie - her # is - of course....... 1

[BaltACD]

Right on .... Right on ... Right on

Putting signals in the hands of anyone other than rail employees is a sure recipie for disaster. In any orchastra there can only be one Conductor, or the music is LOUSY. The same goes for a railroad territory...there can only be one Dispatcher and he must control all moving aspects of that territory.

Besides, depending on train make up and size and the terrain of the terriroty....it can take up to two miles to get a 20,000 ton coal train moving a 40 - 50 MPH stopped....SAFELY. And OVERALL SAFETY is what this is all about.

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

AND - you once again have taken away accountability. Why should the railroads get out of the way of people. If your car stalls on a track - is it due to poor maintenance on your part? Is it due to bad tires - your fault again. Is it due to your own inability to drive because you are impaired? I drive over tracks - lots of them and have yet to have a problem getting from one side to another.

I get so tired of hearing about not me, not my fault and protect me from everything! Clear the way - King John/Jane Q Public is coming!

AMEN MOOKIE

[Anonymous]

I think I have a much more realistic approach to the grade crossing situation. Vevicle manufacturers are putting these navigation systems in cars(ect.) thatcan communicate the vehicles location when there is trouble (theft,breakdowns,emergencys). This is done through centralized locations, call centers. With G.P.S. systems I belive the accuracy is within 15 feet or so. If these centers were programmed to notify the railroad dispacher directly when trouble occured. It could be set up to alert the dispacher if there is trouble near his track and he would use his (or her) own descretion as what to do it the paticular situation. It would take a lot less to do that
then add equiptment at the crossings. The locations for this could be anything from just crossings all the way up to the entire railraod network.
I know a lot of you are thinking what about older cars? Well these will become more and more of a minority over time and it wouldnt be that long before they were a insignificant factor ( also a careless classic car owner is rare ).
This time involved would compare to the alternative of adding infrastructure at the crossings. The cost of linking the call centers to the dispachers (preferably directly to the appropriate dispachers computer, but no nessasarily)would be far less than adding infrastructure in the field.
There would be a lot of details to work out to implement this but it could easily be done with the technology used today.

what do you all think about that idea ?

I hope the right people are listening.

[mudchicken]

Flawed....but keep trying along with Kevin......

(1) Do you know the difference between GPS & GIS? (it sounds like the typical J'moke that knows the buzzwords and little else...)

(2) You have confidence that the GIS input data is good? (Newsflash: GIS and railroad data are about as compatable as oil & water....Even the FRA's GIS system is horribly inadequate...as in failure to locate ALL crossings and many located in the wrong place and out of sequence - don't bother if you have two railroads running side by side....see

). If you leave the data in the care of most GIS people, your stalled car is already trash. TEA-21 and the National Security Acts (Risk assessment) were supposed to fix that (Highway lobby made sure that never happens)... the money to fix the system won't happen , ever. Failures will be common...

(3) OnStar in every vehicle?

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

Case in point: Colorado Springs, CO......(El Paso County) ....still thinks the Rock Island still exists....has a telephone number and an address for Mills Street in Topeka, KS...both now belong to a battered women's shelter...lotta good this does! When alerted to the error in the data, the county chose to ignore the problem. (And there are other counties in this state that are worse, such as Adams County and others yet that are too poor to even start a GIS system...such as Bent or Kiowa counties)[%-)][%-)][%-)]



[banghead][banghead][banghead]

http://www.caliper.com/Maptitude/fra/init.asp

[Anonymous]

Kev, babe! BAD idea. With all I have to do and forms and sheets I have to fill out to get the paper side of my job done, the last thing I need is trackside yahoos playing with my right of way. Lets just follow this through...next, let's install the same stuff on regular traffic lights...they can stop you without a yellow...right now! And let's just put some Nazi traffic cameras in the mix so we can make some revenue off of you. Oh, sorry, I mean so we can make the highways safer...Kevin...scrap this one and back to the drawing board, promise?

[Anonymous]

Mudchicken,
I never said my idea was perfect, and I did not say specificly what methods would be used to acompli***his.
All cars with onstar is unrealistic, but make no mistakes ALL cars made today are loaded with microprocessor controlled systems, and most have complex CPU units that work in conjunction with all the onboard systems. GPS technology is VERY RELIABLE and accurate. Idealy this would alert a dispacher electronicly on a computer screen directly when a vehicle stalls or is involved in an incident obstructing the trains path, but it could be a manual operation like the onstar(or whatever) call center rep. directly calling the appropiate train dispacher. And yes this would require current information to be provided to the rep.(or his computer). This would require little effort compared to most alternatives in terms of time and cost, and the bottom line is the railroads are only going to do something if they have to or feel the need to, and then they are going to want the economical method to acompli***his. Basicly what does it mean to the bottom line financialy (and politicaly)
Here is an example of what I am talking about:
Say grandma is driving an gets stuck on the tracks(it happens). She hits the help button on the onstar(or whatever). the onstar sends a signal to the call center. It gives the available info on the situation including the coradinantes of the vehicle. Then the call center computer compares with a data base of crossing locations (or better yet track locations) and if it finds the vehicle to be within that zone. It then determines which dispacher to notify and does it. That could be by means of direct contact via phone of a rep to the dispacher (more time consuming) or a message on the dispachers computer screen. The dispacher now alerted to a problem and location can determine if he has time to set signals or if he should get on the radio an say "QUICK STOP TRAIN XXXX".
Train XXXX then responds accordingly. If he assumes the worst (which he should) then he stops as quickly as he can. And if that is not a quick enough response then I don't think anyone could have done anything to help you anyway.

We are mostly concerned with the situations where time is of the essence and I belive this method communicates the information the fastest way possible with the technology we have IN USE TODAY. We can build the hardware and write the software easily if there is the motivation to do it. Motivation is how much death / destruction will it take?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I am reminded of an ad I saw last year for a device you could put in/on your car that would clear traffic lights in front of you. It uses the sensors that have been installed at many (but not all) traffic lights to "open up" the intersection for emergency vehicles. All so THEY don't have to wait at traffic lights. I'm waiting for the first report of some bozo in his SUV creaming someone at an intersection, then complaining that the light didn't turn for his device like it was supposed to... These are probably the same folks who run the gates...

If there is a way that people could abuse a device such as we are discussing, it would happen. I can even see people in neighborhoods "plagued" by trains doing some civil disobedience and posting a "crossing guard" on the crossing to control the trains...

No need towait any longer. It has happened.

[Anonymous]

So, Not somehting to run to the pattents office with then?

[:D]

[Anonymous]

Also, I myself see a major flaw in that the human factor still exists. Someone has to realise the danger and act accordingly ( hit whatever panic button is in the car ) to initiate that chain of events.
Another thing i forgot to mention is that the false alarm factor would be more desireable.
You would have to have a vehicle in a paticular spot with trouble to initiate that chain of events. Therefore pranksters could not just hit a "panic button" at the location and hinder the progress of trains in the affected areas.
Although if the need existed, a panic button could be placed in nessasary locations that would be sececptabe to that problem. Like a heavily used pedestrian x-ing at a station.

One more comment on locations. The crossings we are concerned with is mostly the ones that are in blind spots where the engineer does not have proper braking distance. I am sure this is only a fraction of all crossings everywhere. this system could also work in reverse. The railroad can notify the driver / athorities (via onstar) as to the danger level at that location. That way the right course of action can be more accuratly decided by those involved (the driver / help). If it turns out there is no train sch. till next week they can take their time removing the obstruction (lots of warning), If it turns out the "Blue Streak" is seconds away, they can get the people out of the way and prepare to watch the carnage about to happen ( or try as best as they can to).

[Anonymous]

About the device for traffic signals.
I know of two systems for tripping the signals (street) in your favor, and I speek from experience. I did not abuse this but I did do this myself when warranted.
I was the lead tech for a major communications company and when outages happened I was the one that fixed it. Needlesws to say in that situation time is of the essance. In those situations I bent the rules.
one method works on light, and can be triggered with the right kind of hi /lo beam switch and a quick hand. The other worked on RF just like garadge door openers do. I'm not going to give specifics for fear it will be abused. Lets just say in 2 of every 3 communities I traveled through "the lights were green ".

[mudchicken]

Wisser:

(1) As a surveyor, I have been exposed a wee bit to GPS & GIS....Still do not buy your argument about GPS....If we ever get past the GIS/GPS credibility issue, we will move on to what accuracy & precision mean....I see marketing people, mass media and the CA public school system have made their usual scary contribution here...

(2) read the above post again, there is a MAJOR disconnect between somebody pushing one horribly overpriced button and someone else knowing where you really are... Train XXXX is bissfully unaware he is soon gonna have an upclose and personal meeting with a rolling piece of soon-to-be scrap metal.... Train YYYY is sitting on the main line, possibly gone into emergency, dynamited/big-holed for no good reason and the train crew and DS will kill the idiot who pushed the gawdawful button. Besides, the cop is either at the donut shop, at the cop shop or cross town - not where you are expecting him to be. The 911 dispatcher is talking to a women's crisis manager in Topeka BFE.... Corned-fusion x how many nationwide?

In my best Robin Williams - "Reality, what a concept!"...give it a break, lose the emotion, then come back and try again. Listen to Skeets.....The split-second situations are NOT going to be eliminated by this overly hyped toy.....where there is time, a telephone will still work fine. (And I don't have to bulldoze every tree, building, pole or structure within 250 feet of the road to assure adequate GPS interface....)

And what are we going to do with all the bozo'es who continue to plow into the side of the train.....?


[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Anonymous]

All in all, I think that this is a knee-jerk reaction to something that happens beyond the train crews' control. We jump to a "solution" as soon as we see a problem, without weighing the facts or the consequences of that solution.

I think we need to focus more on driver education and awareness than on worrying about whether it's economically, politically, or physically feasible to put the capability of changing signals into someone else's hands besides those of the dispatcher. Putting the gates at a grade crossing certainly didn't stop one young man from jumping under a train last fall. He went down the track about 300 feet and jumped just after the locomotives passed. The crew never knew about it, but the following train's crew did.

I remember reading in another thread about how when cameras were installed to monitor grade crossings, the first car to "bust" the gates was a police car. Of course, we can't expect people to follow the rules if law enforcement violates those rules, and subsequently tickets those people if they then violate those rules. Law enforcement is exempt from some rules in the interest of expediency, but not when it comes to playing against a train. In the Navy, we called it "The Law of Gross Tonnage" and the one with the greatest gross tonnage gets to set the rules.

Maybe we should be more concerned about getting idiots off the road (especially those who drink and drive - like the senior Senator from Massachusetts) and less concerned about adding another burden to the railway.

Mudchicken, maybe we could install "car scrapers" along the tracks on either side of a grade crossing so the train wouldn't be hauling excess tare.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joekc6nlx



Maybe we should be more concerned about getting idiots off the road (especially those who drink and drive - like the senior Senator from Massachusetts) and less concerned about adding another burden to the railway.

Mudchicken, maybe we could install "car scrapers" along the tracks on either side of a grade crossing so the train wouldn't be hauling excess tare.

Maybe the rr would consider bringing back cow catchers [:O](reinforced of course - chevy impalas outmass the typical jersey by a bit) to at least help clear obstructions from the rails while decreasing the chances for catastrophic derailments.

Jeff

[Puckdropper]

Kev, take the idea to the patent office... If it does get implimented, wait a few years and claim infringement. Oh wait...that's been done before.

The drivers need to be more educated about rail safety, and also the fines should be increased. It's not like you're running a red light with cars that can stop on a dime (compared to a train, it's the edge of a dime.)

[Mookie]

Wisser - I think you are proposing an over complicated, expensive system when we really ought to be spending our ideas and $ on the most complicated part in this whole system - the human brain behind the wheel.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

But Kevin - in your own argument you make my point. The statistic are so miniscule that you will break down on the tracks, that to completely redo all grade crossings would be overkill.

And for that miniscule situation that will happen, get out of the car and get far, far away.

It is like the fire you mentioned - get out of the house/car and go to safety.

I am fairly certain that the crew will not be really happy hitting a car, but a locomotive vs a car (rather than a gasoline truck) - my money is on the engine protecting the crew.

So we end up with one totaled car, one shaken crew and one slightly damaged engine.

Still cheaper than putting in some kind of alerters all over the place.

Thanks Mook for agruing my point. (it's like a circle, ya see?) even though the low percentage is 0.00125% , that was merely a reflection on yourself. Factor in the rest op the population of the united states, and someone stalls on the tracks evcery 35-45 minutes, Someone is killed by a drunk driver every 20 minutes, and someone s struck by lightning every 10 minutes, Think about it if your chances of ebing struck by lightinin are 0.08% and it's only every 10 minutes

In Canada we have a p[opulation of 30.3 Million, the last time the USA saw those population numbers were right smack in the middle of the Civil war, up here it's only about once every hour and a half maybe 2 hours, that somene accidently stalls on the RR tracks.

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by dekemd

What I would really like to see is the railroads and emergency personnel (EMS, Fire. Police) get together and work out better procedures to handle railroad related emergencies.
Derrick

You might be surprised just how often and how well we actually do work together. You will find very few firefighters with hazmat training that haven't heard of Kingman, AZ. Oneonta, NY and a small town in Illinois (mind block - I'd remember it if I wasn't trying to) are also high on the list. I spent a morning not long ago climbing around tank cars of several descriptions, learning their characteristics, and attended a presentation by the Operation Lifesaver folks. There's an ERG in the door pocket of my truck.

We've had several derailments (significant, not just dropping a wheel or so off the track) in our area. Things have gone very smoothly, thank you.

ERG - Emergency Response Guide - an orange covered book with instructions to help you handle the first 10-15 minutes of a hazardous materials incident. It lists hundreds of the most common chemicals, from Propane to methyl ethyl awful, and the appropriate initial reactions for each.

Excellent. I'm glad more departments are doing training involving railroads. Unfortunately, here in rural NC, it might be a while before that happens. Training budgets are pretty small here.

My ERG rides in the driver door pocket of my patrol car. No emergency worker should be without one.

Derrick

[mudchicken]

Derrick:

AAR/TTC's "Rattlesnake Junction" trains a pretty large cross section of the country's emergency response people....probably THE best place to go learn is at Pueblo. Have now been through the program twice in 20 years...at least one or two of your folks ought to go thru the 80 hour HAZMATOPs program. A few less over-reacting emergency services people would be a welcome sight to this railroader.

http://www.hazmattraining.com/ertc.html

Dirty Feathers

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Derrick:

AAR/TTC's "Rattlesnake Junction" trains a pretty large cross section of the country's emergency response people....probably THE best place to go learn is at Pueblo. Have now been through the program twice in 20 years...at least one or two of your folks ought to go thru the 80 hour HAZMATOPs program. A few less over-reacting emergency services people would be a welcome sight to this railroader.

http://www.hazmattraining.com/ertc.html

Dirty Feathers

Not just firefighters or police officers should be involved in this. I belong to the local Amateur Radio Emergency Group, working hand-in-hand with the Emergency Management Agency, the police and sheriff's departments, and the fire departments. We assist them with communications support when their radio channels are swamped. We have also set up an introductory course in Hazmat Awareness, conducted by the fire department under the auspices of the State of Ohio regulations. We will be conducting a Technician course at the end of this month. This is a 2 day course for us. In June, there is a county-wide disaster training, involving a terrorist attack on a CSX train carrying hazardous materials. The plan is to swamp the local hospital with casualties, because not only will there be casualties from the train wreck, but also traffic accidents involving school buses evacuating the students from the local schools. It's designed to test the limits of our resources.

Is it going to be fun? Probably not - but the goal is to make more people aware of Hazmat training and maybe some of them will volunteer to assist the professionals once they've gone through the training. My EGR is in the car along with my SKYWARN Spotter's Guide.

In the meantime, I'll be looking both ways when I cross the grade, not only to see if there's a train coming, but if it's close enough, I might back up before the gates go down and watch it go by. I'll also be looking for those "car scrapers" next to the tracks to see if there's the odd Chevy Impala or Silverado on the ground under it.

[rrnut282]

Well it looks like another expensive solution in search of a problem to solve,like ritilan and ADD. The one or two people it would save don't justify the cost. And before someone says what if it was your daughter, I would reply, I have taught my daughters the dangers of driving around RR and whe wouldn't be in that situation in the first place.

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Derrick:

AAR/TTC's "Rattlesnake Junction" trains a pretty large cross section of the country's emergency response people....probably THE best place to go learn is at Pueblo. Have now been through the program twice in 20 years...at least one or two of your folks ought to go thru the 80 hour HAZMATOPs program. A few less over-reacting emergency services people would be a welcome sight to this railroader.

http://www.hazmattraining.com/ertc.html

Dirty Feathers

Mudchicken,

Thanks for the link. I may try to attend one of the courses.

[Anonymous]

Impossible to do. Why would you want to do that the lights are already flashing and the gate may be down.
So you should not be there.Most crossing do not have a signal for the train at crossings the signals are normally used for sidings and train control not for crossings.
Not to say the idea would not work but why would we want to. Cost a fortune to prevent what.
If you have the time the car can be pushed out frm the crossing and if not at least you can get put of the car.,
Nice try but really not a good idea.

Great price on repairing signal relays email me for more info

[Anonymous]

The idea is a good one but the problem isn't stopping the train... it's stopping the drivers from going on to the tracks in the first place.

I have actually seen, on COPS, one incident as mentioned above. It was a little old lady who somehow got her big ol car stuck on the tracks. The cop in that incident did the right thing; he got the old lady out of the car, and then used his cell phone to call the 1-800 number posted at the gate. There was a train- a freight- on the horizon- and I believe they got it stopped. I believe it took a tow truck to unstick the old lady's version of the starship Enterprise off the tracks.

In a situation like that, that is exactly what I would do.

Erik

[miniwyo]

Ok i have to add my 2 cents to this discussion, I have a variation on the idea as well. What about using the conventional arm system, make the arms VERY high strengeth, and instead of going up/down make them swing in and out. And when the road is open the are staionary across the tracks, but when they are activated, they swing out and block the road. Then, devise a sensor that if it has so much resistance for a certian amount of time, it then alerts the dispacher who can then take appropreate actions.


Also a somewhat radical and expensive variation of the above idea, The reason for making them high strength, is if that sensor is activated for that ceritan amount of time the dispacher could then somehow activate a very high power motor and pu***he obstruction out of the way. (this is probably a bad idea and has many flaws making it unfeasable but its an idea anyway)


The whole idea of swinging gates/arms would maybe also keep people from entering the tracks from the grade.




I saw somone hit a local crossing, that is badly in need of repair and it actually made the engine stall. So sometimes it is just a fluke that the vehicle stalls. and a heavy jolt like that was taken by this car just happened to be enough to stall it out. I am in no way
trying to place the RR at fault for crossing collisions, however i feel that this paticular crossing is a hazard and it should be the RR's responsibility to prevent thier crossings from becoming that rundown.

[daveklepper]

Closed circuit TV monitoring with microprocessor pattern recognition and a supervisor will solve the problem. In the vast majority of cases. I described the system already and you can search for the thread.