A Brilliant Idea!

[Anonymous]

I was thinking..

(can't you smell the wood burning?)

Forgetting about Idiotic Drivers, People who can't Listen to RR Crossing lights, and all the other Babbs out there, But This time i'm thinking of the the honest Joe's who's car stall on the Tracks, and get hit by a Train

Deux Montagnes just saw this happen. Guys car stalled on the Railway, Wasn't enough time to contact the Train, and the Train Slammed into the Car, the people were safetly out though.

I went up there to look, and see if i could have found Anyhting that coulkd have been changed and Indeed I did..

Reports of the Derailment, And the Statemnet the engineer Said, Subtracting the Swearing Say somehting like "It was a clear signal" So i went up and had a llok myself, and Right After the Crossing, Indded there was a signal, like about 65% of crossings have, Signals either directly to the Left or the Right of the crossing.

So, I drew this conclusion out, Should the signal have been chnaged from Green to Red, The Train wouldn't have hit the car., and had enough time to stop.

Now, you'll have to understand, I know a fair bit about Signals and how they work, But once inside that Silver logic Box, I would be so lost.

My Question is this, Why can't we install a button in each signal box, OR jsut the ones near a crossing, that a police officer could just press and That would change the signal to Red so the Train engineer could see?

Perhaps install it indie the Logic Box, and when the police come they can unlock it and press.

They'll see the Red Light at the Crossing before they see the car.

Just wondering, perhaps theres a major Flaw i don't see...

[Anonymous]

GOOD IDEA I LIKE IT

[Noah Hofrichter]

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#wstupid][#wstupid][tup][tup] I Agree intirely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Noah

[mudchicken]

flawed.....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

flawed.....

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkay

Next Question.. HOW?

[ironhorseman]

Flaws: Time and Cost.

1) If the police don't get there time. Would they have a key? A key-code? How much time/distance would be needed for an engineer to react to a sudden red signal?

2) The cost of developing and installing.

Maybe they're not major flaws, but at least something to consider. I guess you'd have to think that if it worked in even only 1 circumstance would it be worth it? Also consider if the system could be tampered with. I remember a news article many years ago where theives would tamper with signals changing them to red so when the train stops they could rob them.

Perhaps we could get input from a dispatcher's point of view. Would a dispatcher be willing to let a non-railroad person throw a signal to red on short notice? Where would these stop buttons be placed? Cities? In the country-side? On mountain grades with grade crossings? Would it be possible or wise to stop a train going uphill or downhill?

[jchnhtfd]

Kevin -- not a bad idea at all. Mudchicken does have some valuable points, though -- not the least of which is that it would do no good if the train had already passed the advance signal (if that were clear, there's little or no hope anyway...). It's worth kicking around and thinking about, though...

[Anonymous]

Great Idea, Valid Points. If it wasn't for the fact that it is a great target for a prank, Id say find a way for anyone stalled to connect the rails and cause the red signal. Maybe an emergency jumpercable?

[mudchicken]

Iron Horseman gets (1) & (2)

(3) Your ABS and CTC blocks would have to be drastically shortened. This would cripple train movement.... (ie- you going to put up helper signals at every x-ing in a long block? create manual interlockings everywhere?, gonna provide the $$$$$$$(mega)
for signalmen to maintain, inspect & test these new rascals??

-The alternative is that even if JoeSixpack already pushed the button, the train may be well past the block signal anyhow....say bye-bye! to the soon to be crumpled tinfoil...

(4) How many false alarms?

(5) Simpler to require cell phones and use the 1-800-PANIC numbers

(6) What about gate circuits in TWC dark territory? side tracks...(Lots of that out here)

(*) SPEND THE MONEY ON GRADE SEPARATIONS ....they do a lousy job of funding those as it is (US or Canada).

(7) There are plenty of places out there already with keyed boxes in gate circuits along with garage door opener systems wired into the gate circuits to protect railroad maintenance employees from the rubber tired fools by dropping the gates. Where it's track circuits instead of PMD motion detectors, there are things called shunts.

98.5+% percent of the time, it's the motorist who is cited anyhow.

65% of crossings are gated?[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Anonymous]

Throwing a red signal in front of a train is an absolute no-no. An engineer who sees a signal suddenly go to red must assume the worst, and stop short. If that requires an emergency brake application, the chance of a derailment or break-in-two is very large. As a train dispatcher, we were prohibited by rule from taking away a signal from a train without first verifying with the train's engineer that he could still stop safely.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill

Throwing a red signal in front of a train is an absolute no-no. An engineer who sees a signal suddenly go to red must assume the worst, and stop short. If that requires an emergency brake application, the chance of a derailment or break-in-two is very large. As a train dispatcher, we were prohibited by rule from taking away a signal from a train without first verifying with the train's engineer that he could still stop safely.

Amen!

Keep workin on it Kevin[^]

[M636C]

Guys,

I often hang about the passenger station in Goulburn, about 70 miles North of here (it used to be a big division point with a steam roundhouse, now a museum). It has a tower that controls a branch line junction just to the South of town.

There is a busy grade crossing just to the North of the yard, protected by gates, lights and bells. But there is a rail signal either side of the crossing that only clears when the gates are closed. I'm not sure whether the crossing is actuated by track circuits, or manually from the tower, but I've never seen a train held at the crossing. I assume that it is probably worked from the tower, which cannot see the crossing. There are what we call distant signals that give an amber (yellow) aspect either side of the signals that protect the crossing. If a normal vehicle detector loop (as used with traffic signals) was placed on the crossing, it could actuate these signals to remain at red while a vehicle was on the crossing.

It could be remembered that while cars are mostly affected by this, some years ago, a very large electrical transformer on a special low load truck grounded on a crossing in England and was hit by an electrically hauled express passenger train at 90mph. About thirty people were killed, including the loco crew. The locomotive and serveral cars were destroyed. The truck driver had already called the railway to advise of the problem, but the message didn't get to the right tower in time.

It would be expensive, and not very productive to do this on every crossing, but it could be useful on busy crossings and cheaper than a bridge.

Peter

[wabash1]

mark I never put my train in emergency on a dropped signal. if my last one was a clear and i come around the bend and there is a stop all i am required to do is a full service application. and stop. if i get by the signal its not a bad thing. i wont get fired. this is the rules we go by. We have had trainmasters on rules checks shunt the tracks to see if you would stop on a dropped signal. this practice has stopped. If the stop signal is at a interlocking and the opposing train has run the stop board i am jumping off.and watching the crash from a safer distance. at road crossing at grade there will be to big a temtation for the public to just stop a train.

[Anonymous]

It seems to me, like said above, it is really just as easy to have a person call the emergency panic number at the RR crossing and have the dispatcher deal with any on-coming trains. If you have to wait for a police officer to come and unlock the button, then it's probably just as fast, if not faster to have someone call the number with a cell phone.

Of course the cost of this venture would also be astronomical.

The real priority (also mentioned above) should be to eliminate grade crossings in the first place, so there is no opportunity whatsoever for this kind of thing to happen.
Of course, this would also cost a fortune.

[Hugh Jampton]

In Taiwan they have a grade crossing signal (6 white lights in a cluster) 500 metres before a level crossing. This is activated by a panic button at the crossing. If someone has a problem they press the panic button and the signal lights up. If a driver sees one of these lit up he makes a full servie application, and while it may not be enough to bring the train to rest before it gets to the crossing the speed is drastically reduced by the time it gets there. I asked a driver, and later a traffic controller (dispatcher) about false alarms and I was tolt they are very few.
Obviously the Taiwanese are much more law abiding than in the western world.

If I could upload a picture of one I would.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Obviously the Taiwanese are much more law abiding than in the western world.

They sure are, I just can't see something like that flying over here.... those things would be going off all the time. Fridays nights would probably be especially bad.

[Puckdropper]

Rather than trying to use a signal, why not use a radio broadcast? A "silver box" when a special button is pressed broadcasts a radio message relaying first an alert tone, then location information. Trains that will pass that crossing then are to proceed at reduced speed, until the crossing is verified to be clear (by the train crew would probably be sufficient) If the crossing has been passed already, no reduction in speed would be needed.

Pressing the button falsely should then carry a large fine.

[tree68]

I am reminded of an ad I saw last year for a device you could put in/on your car that would clear traffic lights in front of you. It uses the sensors that have been installed at many (but not all) traffic lights to "open up" the intersection for emergency vehicles. All so THEY don't have to wait at traffic lights. I'm waiting for the first report of some bozo in his SUV creaming someone at an intersection, then complaining that the light didn't turn for his device like it was supposed to... These are probably the same folks who run the gates...

If there is a way that people could abuse a device such as we are discussing, it would happen. I can even see people in neighborhoods "plagued" by trains doing some civil disobedience and posting a "crossing guard" on the crossing to control the trains...

[TH&B]

I want one of those devices that clerars the light for ME. GET OUT OF MY WHY. If we all had that none would never be in anyones way!
OK so D.M. is my home town, a beautiful place, always full of people including trespassers and vandals, including some passengers. How do you stall on the tracks? do you got a standard and you don't know how to drive or what? are you dumb?? Dumbys have always lived around here, most drown in the river some die on the track, some survive, always thier own fault. Passing school busses is a plague around here. People get away with hitting kids at a school bus x-ing and some try to sue the RR for geting hit!?!?!?!?!?
I used to watch the CN electrics run around the train of 6 axles right up to the 80's, that was life man....... and it was good.

[TH&B]

In some places in Eupore they do throw a stop in front of a train or in some cases just a warning but it results in very long crossing blocked because the gates go down and if no resistance is felt it clears the block..........................................................................................
.............................................................................................................................................................
.........................etc , now everyone has to wait extra long for the train like a lift bridge, the train is still 3 miles away (instead of a quarter mile) or if stopped at a station the conducter (or gaurd) throws a knife switch on departure.

[Mookie]

AND - you once again have taken away accountability. Why should the railroads get out of the way of people. If your car stalls on a track - is it due to poor maintenance on your part? Is it due to bad tires - your fault again. Is it due to your own inability to drive because you are impaired? I drive over tracks - lots of them and have yet to have a problem getting from one side to another.

I get so tired of hearing about not me, not my fault and protect me from everything! Clear the way - King John/Jane Q Public is coming!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I am reminded of an ad I saw last year for a device you could put in/on your car that would clear traffic lights in front of you. It uses the sensors that have been installed at many (but not all) traffic lights to "open up" the intersection for emergency vehicles. All so THEY don't have to wait at traffic lights. I'm waiting for the first report of some bozo in his SUV creaming someone at an intersection, then complaining that the light didn't turn for his device like it was supposed to... These are probably the same folks who run the gates...

If there is a way that people could abuse a device such as we are discussing, it would happen. I can even see people in neighborhoods "plagued" by trains doing some civil disobedience and posting a "crossing guard" on the crossing to control the trains...

Hey Larry,

The device is called a MIRT (Mobile Infrared Transmitter) or Traffic Pre-Emptive Device and if 440cuin wants one bad enough he can buy one on ebay for $400.00 or so. Although they are banned from public possession in many states with fines of around $10,000.00 if you are caught with one, mainly because of the abuse issue and conflicts with authorized (emergency response) agencies.

Many of the systems use a priority setting to regulate which mirt gets the attention of the sensor (ie: fire #1, ambulance #2, police #3) and they usually operate on a one green in the direction of the activated mirt and all other signals red.

Jeff

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

AND - you once again have taken away accountability. Why should the railroads get out of the way of people. If your car stalls on a track - is it due to poor maintenance on your part? Is it due to bad tires - your fault again. Is it due to your own inability to drive because you are impaired? I drive over tracks - lots of them and have yet to have a problem getting from one side to another.

I get so tired of hearing about not me, not my fault and protect me from everything! Clear the way - King John/Jane Q Public is coming!

The only problem I usually have driving over tracks is looking both ways to see if I want to turn around and watch the train go by[:D]

[Anonymous]

Yes, But also Note-

I enevr said the Train had to be Right there... it could be one or two Blocks Away...

How about A "pull in case of stall" just like "pull in case of fire" you msut Rememeber, that is why those devices are installed around public buildings- A fire Detector is only Likely to detect a fire whne it is already mid process, I.E too late, and about 25-30% of your building is gone.

That is why, in every public building you will find "Pullin case of fire" or "Break glass and Pull"

Rememebr Machines are not Humans- They can Not do anyhting outside of what their Firmware permits.

The manangers of a Building are Relying on you- Too see a fire and alert the public, They DO NOT rely on the fire detectors to sense a fire, they rely on the fire detectors to ALERT you.

There is a difference-

Like i said, I don't know a terrible lot about Signals, But i do know this
To place an iterpritor, a few resistors a capsitor and maybe a Pull lever or a button, Would not cost an extrodinary amount.

Mookie, For once, I don't agree with you. Weather you want to admit it or not, S&*^ happens and cars break down. Someitmes, and more often then not, it is unexpected.

Now if you take your Distance traveled (50 miles) and factor in your chances of stalling on the Railroad tracks, the percent chnace works out to be about 0.000125%. An almsot non existant number, but the chance is still there.

Now where ironhorseman Picked up the fact that i said 65% of corssings have gates, Was not what i said, I said

65% or more, have signals near the crossing or within 500 feet of them, simply because Roads equal power, power equals electricity, Signals function with Electricity.

I said Signals, Not Crossing devices

Don't get them confused...

Rememebre if the track is straight. And the Train is more thne a block away, the Engineer will have time to react to the red signal

An extra 25 secondes is better then a kick in the teeth.

A gree, The Railroad should stop for no one. I disagree that, should someone wind up accidnetly on the tracks, we should jsut MOW them down, simply because they were there through no fault of their own?

matter of fact, Next time any engineer sees somehting on the tracks, They outta speed up, then right beofre they are about to hit the object/person, yell out the window and say "Sorry, I stop for no one, RR policy!"

Well somehting like this Did happen, A car stalle don the Tracks, And i liscensed signla man was behind them in his car, he cut open the signal box and rerouted the power and caused a red signal, the train stopped within time.

However, the Signla maintainer was then fired from His railroad simply because of his actions.

He brought his case to what is called "the court for wrongful dissmissals" and he won, The Railroad had no choice but to reinstate his job within 6 hours after he won his case, And the Railroad came under heavy Scrutany for even thinking about, let alone acting on, firing the guy, who saved a life.

Rememebr, i'm not trying to blame Mcdonalds for Spilling coffee on myself, I am simply thinking of accident diversion plans.

Weather you like it or not, I reiderate, Crap happens, We can debate until next friday weather that lady spilled cofee on herself accidently oron purpose, and why the hell she sued McDonalds for her own Stupidity.

Thats not what i'm debating. I am Simply stating that, Everyones car will break down.

[Mookie]

But Kevin - in your own argument you make my point. The statistic are so miniscule that you will break down on the tracks, that to completely redo all grade crossings would be overkill.

And for that miniscule situation that will happen, get out of the car and get far, far away.

It is like the fire you mentioned - get out of the house/car and go to safety.

I am fairly certain that the crew will not be really happy hitting a car, but a locomotive vs a car (rather than a gasoline truck) - my money is on the engine protecting the crew.

So we end up with one totaled car, one shaken crew and one slightly damaged engine.

Still cheaper than putting in some kind of alerters all over the place.

[jchnhtfd]

As Kevin so neatly puts it... bad stuff does happen. Not often, but it does, and it would be good if there were a way to reduce, if not eliminate, the resulting disasters. As others have noted, though, any device accessible to the GP is going to get abused; it's just the way the GP operates. So it is a little hard to see a practical way to do this. I think that this is one area, though, where one really does have to balance the risk of hitting the odd car (or truck) stalled on the track with the risk inherent in an emergency stop of a train -- which is certainly not zero (trains have been known to derail during emergency stops, and which is worse, a derailment with possible hazmat or passenger involvement, or a squashed SUV? I know which I'd pick...).

Difficult.

[dekemd]

I could see using such a system if it was only used in emergency situations. A car stalled on the tracks wouldn't justify it's use. If you've got enough time to pu***he button and the train has time to stop, then you have time to put the car in neutral and push it off the tracks. The only situation I can think of off the top of my head would be a traffic accident where the car was on the tracks with a victim trapped inside. Even then I would not require the train to go into emergency and try to stop before the signal. It may sound cold but risking derailment of a train carrying large amounts of hazardous materials for the few lives in the car is not a good idea. You have to ask yourself is it worth risking hundreds or even thousands of lives for the few in the car? Hopefully, I'll never have to make such a decision, but it could happen.

What I would really like to see is the railroads and emergency personnel (EMS, Fire. Police) get together and work out better procedures to handle railroad related emergencies.

Derrick

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dekemd

I could see using such a system if it was only used in emergency situations. A car stalled on the tracks wouldn't justify it's use. If you've got enough time to pu***he button and the train has time to stop, then you have time to put the car in neutral and push it off the tracks. The only situation I can think of off the top of my head would be a traffic accident where the car was on the tracks with a victim trapped inside. Even then I would not require the train to go into emergency and try to stop before the signal. It may sound cold but risking derailment of a train carrying large amounts of hazardous materials for the few lives in the car is not a good idea. You have to ask yourself is it worth risking hundreds or even thousands of lives for the few in the car? Hopefully, I'll never have to make such a decision, but it could happen.

What I would really like to see is the railroads and emergency personnel (EMS, Fire. Police) get together and work out better procedures to handle railroad related emergencies.

Derrick

You know Derrick - you hit on something I have reason to be very proud of - our town has one of the finest police/fire/emt operations you can find. Their response rate is 3 min max to the farthest parts of the city for the fire dept, the emts are housed at the fire stations and are manned by firefighters/emt personnel. The police have to be saints to put up with the nonsense I hear them get called to and they work very hard to keep our city safe. Kudos to all of them!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dekemd

What I would really like to see is the railroads and emergency personnel (EMS, Fire. Police) get together and work out better procedures to handle railroad related emergencies.
Derrick

You might be surprised just how often and how well we actually do work together. You will find very few firefighters with hazmat training that haven't heard of Kingman, AZ. Oneonta, NY and a small town in Illinois (mind block - I'd remember it if I wasn't trying to) are also high on the list. I spent a morning not long ago climbing around tank cars of several descriptions, learning their characteristics, and attended a presentation by the Operation Lifesaver folks. There's an ERG in the door pocket of my truck.

We've had several derailments (significant, not just dropping a wheel or so off the track) in our area. Things have gone very smoothly, thank you.

ERG - Emergency Response Guide - an orange covered book with instructions to help you handle the first 10-15 minutes of a hazardous materials incident. It lists hundreds of the most common chemicals, from Propane to methyl ethyl awful, and the appropriate initial reactions for each.

[ironhorseman]

OK I GOT IT!

1 OUTRAGEOUS IDEA
and
1 more practical one

1 Stranded motorist on RR crossing, whether it's a stalled car or if it slipped on the street and got caught on the rails, can press a button by the side of the road that brings out a giant magnet that swings over the car, lifts it up, and drops out of the way of the train.

2 On a more down to earth note, maybe instead of throwing a red signals there could be a devise that alerts rail authorities and emergency personnel. Instead of just pressing a button it would have to be a telephone system. On many college campuses there are emergency systems where when you pu***he button the light flashes and the phone automatically dials to campus police where they can talk to you over a speaker. By law the campus police must respond to the emergency station every time the button is pressed, even if the person that pressed it tells the dispatcher that they're not in trouble.

In applying this technology to railroads, maybe the phone can ring to the central trains dispatcher, or the nearest manned railroad depot (like in my town they use the old Santa Fe depot to store trucks, equipment, offices, MoW, etc.), or to the nearest police station. This way people with out cell phones can get emergency help if their car is stuck and can't be moved. This way the engineer of the nearest train can be alearted to a possible obstruction on the tracks ahead and be ready for it. An additional idea would to maybe put a flashing light at the nearest block signal, so instead of it turning the red the conductor and engineer would know what this flashing light meant.

But again, the cost of installing such a system would be a lot. All I can say if a system can be found to work to prevent such accidents to get around the costs would be incremental implementation. Do it one at time. It's kinda like installing those ramps at sidewalk crossings and making buildings handicap accessible. They don't do it all at once, but anytime a street corner is reconstructed they put in side walk ramps, anytime a building is renovated they make it handicap accessible.