Who had the best Twin Cities - KC route?

[sandiego]

To Stix

Re: "One problem the Rock Island had is their line didn't really reach the Twin Cities. It only went as far north as I think Northfield, then used trackage rights to reach its yards in Minneapolis and St.Paul."

Not quite true. The RI used trackage rights on the MILW from Comus (just north of Faribault) to Rosemont. North of Rosemont RI had their own line to Inver Grove Yard. Just south of Inver Grove they had a line that split off to the east, crossed the Mississippi River, and then connected with the MILW at Newport. North of Newport the RI used trackage rights on the MILW and BN (ex-GN and NP lines) to make connections and to access their freight house in downtown Minneapolis.

Volume 2, Number 2 (Summer 2005) of "Remember the Rock" (Andover Junction Publications) has an excellent article about RI's Twin Cities operations, well worth reading.

One interesting item I found was the RI's train lineup as follows (year not specified):

Southbound
62—Inver Grove to Silvis
64—Inver Grove to Silvis
81—Inver Grove to KC

Northbound
61—South Chicago to Inver Grove
80—KC to Inver Grove

South of Manly traffic looked a little light with only one train each way.

In speculation, I wonder if the SOO had been able to acquire the RI line if they would have used their trackage rights from St. Paul to Inver Grove (already used by SOO's "Rocky-Soo" transfer as part of their rights to Roseport acquired courtesy of the CNW-CGW merger) in preference to operating over the MNS. I can't imagine running 100 car coal or grain trains over the roller-coaster, curvy, light rail, glorified ex-interurban MNS line.

Kurt Hayek

[CGW]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

Jeff,

Being a long-time CP employee (15 years) I personally think it was a very short-sighted decision back in 1996-97 to sell the "Kansas City Corn Lines.  To me, it was just the idea of giving up access to the Kansas City gateway that was very difficult to accept.  True, the CP was able to renew a lot of it's "core" trackage and was able to vastly modernize its fleet of locomotives.  For whatever reason, the CP passed up on some opportunites back in the late 80's and early 90's to expand south of Kansas City and it cost them.  But now, I think the new regime in place at CPRS sees the true value of the DME/ICE and access to the Kansas City gateway plus the fact that the ICE has done a pretty good job - IMHO - of winning back a lot of local business over the last few years.  I'm certainly not privy to any inside info but it's hard for me to imagine having the Kansas City gateway back in our fold not having a huge positive impact for us.  So yeah, I think we'll be around for the long-haul once we (hopefully) get the nod from the STB.     

[MP173]

I cannot see CP, or any of the big railroads not wanting a mainline (Ok, perhaps it should be designated as a secondary line) between the two largest rail centers (Chicago and KC). 

The days of shedding assets appear to be over for awhile in the industry.  Note the purchase of Ohio Central by G&W.

ed

[jeffhergert]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

Jeff,

Being a long-time CP employee (15 years) I personally think it was a very short-sighted decision back in 1996-97 to sell the "Kansas City Corn Lines.  To me, it was just the idea of giving up access to the Kansas City gateway that was very difficult to accept.  True, the CP was able to renew a lot of it's "core" trackage and was able to vastly modernize its fleet of locomotives.  For whatever reason, the CP passed up on some opportunites back in the late 80's and early 90's to expand south of Kansas City and it cost them.  But now, I think the new regime in place at CPRS sees the true value of the DME/ICE and access to the Kansas City gateway plus the fact that the ICE has done a pretty good job - IMHO - of winning back a lot of local business over the last few years.  I'm certainly not privy to any inside info but it's hard for me to imagine having the Kansas City gateway back in our fold not having a huge positive impact for us.  So yeah, I think we'll be around for the long-haul once we (hopefully) get the nod from the STB.     

I agree with what L A Rams Guy is saying.  I worked with a guy who had worked for the ICE.  He said a few of the friends he worked with their have said the CP's big interest is getting back the line to Kansas City.  I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually the DM&E portion is put up for sale. 

Jeff

  

[Anonymous]

This morning after church I made a U-turn and came back to the grade-crossing to watch a southbound UP unit grain train on BNSF's Hinckley Sub ~10:45 AM.  It was lead by two UP six-axle "wings" (my reference to the wing design on the locomotive nose) and the entire consist, save for a handful of lease hoppers (NAHX and a few other companies), were CN cylindrical hopper cars.  He was doing maybe 30-35 MPH, with around 70-80 cars in the train.  I didn't see a single UP or UP heritage marked car in the train.

[RRKen]

Actually, Ken, the CP/ICE River mainline competes quite well with the (now) UP "Spine Line" mainline.  True, it isn't as direct as the "Spine Line" but the Milwaukee Road proved in the early 80's they could effectively move trains in this corridor and had the lion's share of the traffic when it had the marketing agreement with the GTW/DWP.  I have no doubt that my employer, Canadian Pacific Railway, will do a fine job with it once the acquisition is completed of the DME/ICE.

If the route was competitive, then CP would have given the CanAM traffic to the ICE.  But the ICE is about 100 miles out of the way vs. UP.  By the time the ICE gets to KC from St. Paul, UP having left St. Paul at the same time, is a day farther south.

Traffic between Canada and southern outlets has grown since the 1980's.    So much traffic I see today, was not around on either line in the 1980's.   Almost daily perishable for Dallas.   Pipe.   Ethanol products.   And that does not take into account the CN traffic from the Twin Ports on the Spine.   It is far above the level that GTW et. al fed to the MILW.

There will NEVER be enough capacity on the Spine Line for Amtrak?  Are you kidding me?  If there is ever going to be service in this corridor this is where it has to be.  I can almost see UP's argument that the "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa is too congested but the "Spine Line"?  Please. 

I am here to tell you, as things stand, that UP does not have all that much more capacity on the Spine.   When locals die en-route because they cannot get main line time, there is a capacity issue.   South of Mason City, where there is little CTC between MC and KC Junction, it's all manual switches and track warrant.   Through trains run fine right now at 60 mph.  With Amtrak, there is not enough sidings on the Spine to hold trains out of the way.  Then you have the terminals of Mason City and Des Moines, with a lot of local industries, meaning congestion.  

 Daily trains include 3 mainifests south from St. Paul.  Albert Lea local during the day, and three times a week at night going north to Owatonna.   An 80 to 100 car manifest originated in Mason City from local traffic south every day.  A 3 day a week local to Hampton.  A 6 day a week local to Iowa Falls from Des Moines.   The Iowa Falls industry job 5 days a week.  Two daytime industry jobs in Mason City.  The ICE transfer in Mason City.   A daily manifest from Eagle Grove to Des Moines.   Five manifests south of KC junction to Des Moines.  A daily manifest Des Moines to Marshalltown and return.    Add to it, coal to St. Paul and Mason City.  Grain to and from Mason City.  DDGs and Ethanol unit trains to Mason City.   Grain to St. Paul (Twin Ports).     So please tell me where all this capacity is?

[sandiego]

To RRKen:

Re: Capacity issues; you wrote "There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine. Same goes for Intermodal."

As I mentioned in a previous message:

"Why not? With CTC on the entire route and more sidings there should be ample capacity given the traffic levels. Consider that the CP line east from St. Paul has both Amtrak and intermodal on single track with more tonnage besides."

I agree that the present arrangement of TWC and not enough sidings is limiting traffic but that can certainly be improved, there are no real problems with topography from Rosemont to Des Moines, Des Moines south will take more work but it's doable, and there's room to add a second main through Mason City and Des Moines (at least part of the way in both towns).

So, what's the problem? It's not like trying to add capacity to the DRGW east of Grand Junction (through Glenwood Canyon where's there's not room).

Kurt Hayek

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

Actually, Ken, the CP/ICE River mainline competes quite well with the (now) UP "Spine Line" mainline.  True, it isn't as direct as the "Spine Line" but the Milwaukee Road proved in the early 80's they could effectively move trains in this corridor and had the lion's share of the traffic when it had the marketing agreement with the GTW/DWP.  I have no doubt that my employer, Canadian Pacific Railway, will do a fine job with it once the acquisition is completed of the DME/ICE.

If the route was competitive, then CP would have given the CanAM traffic to the ICE.  But the ICE is about 100 miles out of the way vs. UP.  By the time the ICE gets to KC from St. Paul, UP having left St. Paul at the same time, is a day farther south.

Traffic between Canada and southern outlets has grown since the 1980's.    So much traffic I see today, was not around on either line in the 1980's.   Almost daily perishable for Dallas.   Pipe.   Ethanol products.   And that does not take into account the CN traffic from the Twin Ports on the Spine.   It is far above the level that GTW et. al fed to the MILW.

There will NEVER be enough capacity on the Spine Line for Amtrak?  Are you kidding me?  If there is ever going to be service in this corridor this is where it has to be.  I can almost see UP's argument that the "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa is too congested but the "Spine Line"?  Please. 

I am here to tell you, as things stand, that UP does not have all that much more capacity on the Spine.   When locals die en-route because they cannot get main line time, there is a capacity issue.   South of Mason City, where there is little CTC between MC and KC Junction, it's all manual switches and track warrant.   Through trains run fine right now at 60 mph.  With Amtrak, there is not enough sidings on the Spine to hold trains out of the way.  Then you have the terminals of Mason City and Des Moines, with a lot of local industries, meaning congestion.  

 Daily trains include 3 mainifests south from St. Paul.  Albert Lea local during the day, and three times a week at night going north to Owatonna.   An 80 to 100 car manifest originated in Mason City from local traffic south every day.  A 3 day a week local to Hampton.  A 6 day a week local to Iowa Falls from Des Moines.   The Iowa Falls industry job 5 days a week.  Two daytime industry jobs in Mason City.  The ICE transfer in Mason City.   A daily manifest from Eagle Grove to Des Moines.   Five manifests south of KC junction to Des Moines.  A daily manifest Des Moines to Marshalltown and return.    Add to it, coal to St. Paul and Mason City.  Grain to and from Mason City.  DDGs and Ethanol unit trains to Mason City.   Grain to St. Paul (Twin Ports).     So please tell me where all this capacity is?

The CanAm traffic that UP gets from us at St Paul is the result of an agreement that came about long before the ICE took over the IMRL lines. 

I don't cast doubt for a second that the "Spine Line" is the most direct route between these two points.  It is.  And it's precisely why this has to be the route chosen by Amtrak when the time comes to establish rail passenger service between these two points. 

But to give the impression that the CP/ICE River mainline can't compete with the Spine Line is plain misleading.  Sure, the "Spine Line" has its share of traffic but so does the CP/ICE route.  Actually, if there's a line that is needing extra sidings, it's the ICE portion between River Junction and Samoa.  And it's only going to get busier once the STB gives us the nod to take over the DME/ICE.  Also, don't forget, Ken - the UP had the Ford auto traffic for awhile - and promptly lost it to the ICE a couple of years ago.

I spent some time on the "Spine Line" yesterday at both Manly (interesting place where the IANR line to Cedar Rapids splits off) and at Glenville (also very interesting with the CN from Cedar Falls) and was able to catch a couple of southbounds that afternoon.  There may be some signaling issues south of Mason City; not sure to what extent but if the UP can handle Amtrak between Stl and KC they can sure find room for it between STPAU and KCITY.   

  

[MP173]

Ken:

That was a very good report on the traffic moving on the Spine Line. I never realized there was this much.

Is grain the major component of the locals and industry jobs in the Mason City, Iowa Falls area?  You mentioned the ICE transfer at Mason City, is there considerable interchange there?  Also, what is the nature of the Des Moines - Marshaltown manifests?  Is that also grain dominated, or is there industrial movements off of the CHicago- Omaha main?

I am looking at a 2004 Iowa DoT Railroad Traffic Density map and it shows the Spine Line handling about 27mgt north of Nevada and 34mgt to Des Moines with about 26mgt south of Des Moines. That is a pretty healthy density for the line you are describing.

thanks,

 

ed

[RRKen]

To RRKen:

Re: Capacity issues; you wrote "There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine. Same goes for Intermodal."

As I mentioned in a previous message:

"Why not? With CTC on the entire route and more sidings there should be ample capacity given the traffic levels. Consider that the CP line east from St. Paul has both Amtrak and intermodal on single track with more tonnage besides."

I agree that the present arrangement of TWC and not enough sidings is limiting traffic but that can certainly be improved, there are no real problems with topography from Rosemont to Des Moines, Des Moines south will take more work but it's doable, and there's room to add a second main through Mason City and Des Moines (at least part of the way in both towns).

Kurt Hayek

 We have a "second main" being installed on the north end of Mason City at the present time.  That will aid in congestion with trains doing station work.  It will not do much for capacity south of town.     With sidings at Sheffield, Argon, Buckeye, and Nevada, it limits things, without the locals working.    They reserve Nevada and Cambridge for trains meeting traffic off the E/W main.   

There is not enough traffic on the Spine for a second main yet.   But there is enough to warrant directional running between Des Moines and KC. 

The speed factor however is what will cause too many delays.   Buckeye, Sheffield, and good for 15 mph over the switches into the siding.  How long would it take Amtrak to catch up with a train trying to clear up?   Then it will wait in line at Des Moines. 

Consider this.  If  Amtrak were shown a 2000 departure from Mason City, it would get a track warrant to Sheffield to make sure a train is able to clear up.  That would normally be MNPSS.  MDMMC would have to then clear at Argon at 1700 or there abouts (called Des Moines 1100).   Will the local be able to get out of Argon in time to make it to Buckeye to clear for Amtrak?  If n ot, then MDMMC waits at Buckeye.   MKCCP will end up waiting at Nevada if there is not a coal hopper or a late (and dead)  MSSNP waiting there, as the E/W main will not let him sit out there.   

    All that would put a huge crunch on Mason City as before we can call out our MMCDM, MNPSS and MDMMC must arrive and yard.   MMCDM (which uses MDMMC's power) must depart 0300 without fail.   If any grain or coal or ethanol is in the picture, your skunked.   Chances are that the local to Iowa Falls will die, and so would MKCCP.   With all those delays, you run the risk of screwing up the north end of the Spine to St. Paul. 

 

[RRKen]

Ken:

That was a very good report on the traffic moving on the Spine Line. I never realized there was this much.

Is grain the major component of the locals and industry jobs in the Mason City, Iowa Falls area? 

Mason City: Ethanol & byproduct, bean oil, fertilizer, cement, sugar, no whole grains.  Iowa Falls: Bean meal, bean oil, ethanol & Byproduct, fertilizer, industrial products.

 You mentioned the ICE transfer at Mason City, is there considerable interchange there? 

Depends on the day.

Also, what is the nature of the Des Moines - Marshaltown manifests?  Is that also grain dominated, or is there industrial movements off of the CHicago- Omaha main?

Mixed bag.    Any traffic in Des Moines that must go west or originates in the west for Des Moines. Also traffic for Marshalltown from the N. Little Rock/KC manifests.

I am looking at a 2004 Iowa DoT Railroad Traffic Density map and it shows the Spine Line handling about 27mgt north of Nevada and 34mgt to Des Moines with about 26mgt south of Des Moines. That is a pretty healthy density for the line you are describing.

thanks,

ed

2007 figures.   SSP to MC: 21MGT; MC to KC Jct: 31MGT; KC Jct to DSM: 42MGT; DSM to KC: 33MGT.   11MGT originates in MC.    Those numbers will be much higher for 2008.

[RRKen]

I agree with what L A Rams Guy is saying.  I worked with a guy who had worked for the ICE.  He said a few of the friends he worked with their have said the CP's big interest is getting back the line to Kansas City.  I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually the DM&E portion is put up for sale. 

Jeff

 

I would not bank on it.  Eventually there will be enough tonnage originating off the DME to make it worth while.  

[RRKen]

 Also, don't forget, Ken - the UP had the Ford auto traffic for awhile - and promptly lost it to the ICE a couple of years ago.

Long story on the autos.  Rest assured, I did not make that decision.