Who had the best Twin Cities - KC route?

[RRKen]

 Also, don't forget, Ken - the UP had the Ford auto traffic for awhile - and promptly lost it to the ICE a couple of years ago.

Long story on the autos.  Rest assured, I did not make that decision. 

[RRKen]

I agree with what L A Rams Guy is saying.  I worked with a guy who had worked for the ICE.  He said a few of the friends he worked with their have said the CP's big interest is getting back the line to Kansas City.  I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually the DM&E portion is put up for sale. 

Jeff

 

I would not bank on it.  Eventually there will be enough tonnage originating off the DME to make it worth while.  

[RRKen]

Ken:

That was a very good report on the traffic moving on the Spine Line. I never realized there was this much.

Is grain the major component of the locals and industry jobs in the Mason City, Iowa Falls area? 

Mason City: Ethanol & byproduct, bean oil, fertilizer, cement, sugar, no whole grains.  Iowa Falls: Bean meal, bean oil, ethanol & Byproduct, fertilizer, industrial products.

 You mentioned the ICE transfer at Mason City, is there considerable interchange there? 

Depends on the day.

Also, what is the nature of the Des Moines - Marshaltown manifests?  Is that also grain dominated, or is there industrial movements off of the CHicago- Omaha main?

Mixed bag.    Any traffic in Des Moines that must go west or originates in the west for Des Moines. Also traffic for Marshalltown from the N. Little Rock/KC manifests.

I am looking at a 2004 Iowa DoT Railroad Traffic Density map and it shows the Spine Line handling about 27mgt north of Nevada and 34mgt to Des Moines with about 26mgt south of Des Moines. That is a pretty healthy density for the line you are describing.

thanks,

ed

2007 figures.   SSP to MC: 21MGT; MC to KC Jct: 31MGT; KC Jct to DSM: 42MGT; DSM to KC: 33MGT.   11MGT originates in MC.    Those numbers will be much higher for 2008.

[RRKen]

To RRKen:

Re: Capacity issues; you wrote "There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine. Same goes for Intermodal."

As I mentioned in a previous message:

"Why not? With CTC on the entire route and more sidings there should be ample capacity given the traffic levels. Consider that the CP line east from St. Paul has both Amtrak and intermodal on single track with more tonnage besides."

I agree that the present arrangement of TWC and not enough sidings is limiting traffic but that can certainly be improved, there are no real problems with topography from Rosemont to Des Moines, Des Moines south will take more work but it's doable, and there's room to add a second main through Mason City and Des Moines (at least part of the way in both towns).

Kurt Hayek

 We have a "second main" being installed on the north end of Mason City at the present time.  That will aid in congestion with trains doing station work.  It will not do much for capacity south of town.     With sidings at Sheffield, Argon, Buckeye, and Nevada, it limits things, without the locals working.    They reserve Nevada and Cambridge for trains meeting traffic off the E/W main.   

There is not enough traffic on the Spine for a second main yet.   But there is enough to warrant directional running between Des Moines and KC. 

The speed factor however is what will cause too many delays.   Buckeye, Sheffield, and good for 15 mph over the switches into the siding.  How long would it take Amtrak to catch up with a train trying to clear up?   Then it will wait in line at Des Moines. 

Consider this.  If  Amtrak were shown a 2000 departure from Mason City, it would get a track warrant to Sheffield to make sure a train is able to clear up.  That would normally be MNPSS.  MDMMC would have to then clear at Argon at 1700 or there abouts (called Des Moines 1100).   Will the local be able to get out of Argon in time to make it to Buckeye to clear for Amtrak?  If n ot, then MDMMC waits at Buckeye.   MKCCP will end up waiting at Nevada if there is not a coal hopper or a late (and dead)  MSSNP waiting there, as the E/W main will not let him sit out there.   

    All that would put a huge crunch on Mason City as before we can call out our MMCDM, MNPSS and MDMMC must arrive and yard.   MMCDM (which uses MDMMC's power) must depart 0300 without fail.   If any grain or coal or ethanol is in the picture, your skunked.   Chances are that the local to Iowa Falls will die, and so would MKCCP.   With all those delays, you run the risk of screwing up the north end of the Spine to St. Paul. 

 

[MP173]

Ken:

That was a very good report on the traffic moving on the Spine Line. I never realized there was this much.

Is grain the major component of the locals and industry jobs in the Mason City, Iowa Falls area?  You mentioned the ICE transfer at Mason City, is there considerable interchange there?  Also, what is the nature of the Des Moines - Marshaltown manifests?  Is that also grain dominated, or is there industrial movements off of the CHicago- Omaha main?

I am looking at a 2004 Iowa DoT Railroad Traffic Density map and it shows the Spine Line handling about 27mgt north of Nevada and 34mgt to Des Moines with about 26mgt south of Des Moines. That is a pretty healthy density for the line you are describing.

thanks,

 

ed

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

Actually, Ken, the CP/ICE River mainline competes quite well with the (now) UP "Spine Line" mainline.  True, it isn't as direct as the "Spine Line" but the Milwaukee Road proved in the early 80's they could effectively move trains in this corridor and had the lion's share of the traffic when it had the marketing agreement with the GTW/DWP.  I have no doubt that my employer, Canadian Pacific Railway, will do a fine job with it once the acquisition is completed of the DME/ICE.

If the route was competitive, then CP would have given the CanAM traffic to the ICE.  But the ICE is about 100 miles out of the way vs. UP.  By the time the ICE gets to KC from St. Paul, UP having left St. Paul at the same time, is a day farther south.

Traffic between Canada and southern outlets has grown since the 1980's.    So much traffic I see today, was not around on either line in the 1980's.   Almost daily perishable for Dallas.   Pipe.   Ethanol products.   And that does not take into account the CN traffic from the Twin Ports on the Spine.   It is far above the level that GTW et. al fed to the MILW.

There will NEVER be enough capacity on the Spine Line for Amtrak?  Are you kidding me?  If there is ever going to be service in this corridor this is where it has to be.  I can almost see UP's argument that the "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa is too congested but the "Spine Line"?  Please. 

I am here to tell you, as things stand, that UP does not have all that much more capacity on the Spine.   When locals die en-route because they cannot get main line time, there is a capacity issue.   South of Mason City, where there is little CTC between MC and KC Junction, it's all manual switches and track warrant.   Through trains run fine right now at 60 mph.  With Amtrak, there is not enough sidings on the Spine to hold trains out of the way.  Then you have the terminals of Mason City and Des Moines, with a lot of local industries, meaning congestion.  

 Daily trains include 3 mainifests south from St. Paul.  Albert Lea local during the day, and three times a week at night going north to Owatonna.   An 80 to 100 car manifest originated in Mason City from local traffic south every day.  A 3 day a week local to Hampton.  A 6 day a week local to Iowa Falls from Des Moines.   The Iowa Falls industry job 5 days a week.  Two daytime industry jobs in Mason City.  The ICE transfer in Mason City.   A daily manifest from Eagle Grove to Des Moines.   Five manifests south of KC junction to Des Moines.  A daily manifest Des Moines to Marshalltown and return.    Add to it, coal to St. Paul and Mason City.  Grain to and from Mason City.  DDGs and Ethanol unit trains to Mason City.   Grain to St. Paul (Twin Ports).     So please tell me where all this capacity is?

The CanAm traffic that UP gets from us at St Paul is the result of an agreement that came about long before the ICE took over the IMRL lines. 

I don't cast doubt for a second that the "Spine Line" is the most direct route between these two points.  It is.  And it's precisely why this has to be the route chosen by Amtrak when the time comes to establish rail passenger service between these two points. 

But to give the impression that the CP/ICE River mainline can't compete with the Spine Line is plain misleading.  Sure, the "Spine Line" has its share of traffic but so does the CP/ICE route.  Actually, if there's a line that is needing extra sidings, it's the ICE portion between River Junction and Samoa.  And it's only going to get busier once the STB gives us the nod to take over the DME/ICE.  Also, don't forget, Ken - the UP had the Ford auto traffic for awhile - and promptly lost it to the ICE a couple of years ago.

I spent some time on the "Spine Line" yesterday at both Manly (interesting place where the IANR line to Cedar Rapids splits off) and at Glenville (also very interesting with the CN from Cedar Falls) and was able to catch a couple of southbounds that afternoon.  There may be some signaling issues south of Mason City; not sure to what extent but if the UP can handle Amtrak between Stl and KC they can sure find room for it between STPAU and KCITY.   

  

[sandiego]

To RRKen:

Re: Capacity issues; you wrote "There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine. Same goes for Intermodal."

As I mentioned in a previous message:

"Why not? With CTC on the entire route and more sidings there should be ample capacity given the traffic levels. Consider that the CP line east from St. Paul has both Amtrak and intermodal on single track with more tonnage besides."

I agree that the present arrangement of TWC and not enough sidings is limiting traffic but that can certainly be improved, there are no real problems with topography from Rosemont to Des Moines, Des Moines south will take more work but it's doable, and there's room to add a second main through Mason City and Des Moines (at least part of the way in both towns).

So, what's the problem? It's not like trying to add capacity to the DRGW east of Grand Junction (through Glenwood Canyon where's there's not room).

Kurt Hayek

[RRKen]

Actually, Ken, the CP/ICE River mainline competes quite well with the (now) UP "Spine Line" mainline.  True, it isn't as direct as the "Spine Line" but the Milwaukee Road proved in the early 80's they could effectively move trains in this corridor and had the lion's share of the traffic when it had the marketing agreement with the GTW/DWP.  I have no doubt that my employer, Canadian Pacific Railway, will do a fine job with it once the acquisition is completed of the DME/ICE.

If the route was competitive, then CP would have given the CanAM traffic to the ICE.  But the ICE is about 100 miles out of the way vs. UP.  By the time the ICE gets to KC from St. Paul, UP having left St. Paul at the same time, is a day farther south.

Traffic between Canada and southern outlets has grown since the 1980's.    So much traffic I see today, was not around on either line in the 1980's.   Almost daily perishable for Dallas.   Pipe.   Ethanol products.   And that does not take into account the CN traffic from the Twin Ports on the Spine.   It is far above the level that GTW et. al fed to the MILW.

There will NEVER be enough capacity on the Spine Line for Amtrak?  Are you kidding me?  If there is ever going to be service in this corridor this is where it has to be.  I can almost see UP's argument that the "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa is too congested but the "Spine Line"?  Please. 

I am here to tell you, as things stand, that UP does not have all that much more capacity on the Spine.   When locals die en-route because they cannot get main line time, there is a capacity issue.   South of Mason City, where there is little CTC between MC and KC Junction, it's all manual switches and track warrant.   Through trains run fine right now at 60 mph.  With Amtrak, there is not enough sidings on the Spine to hold trains out of the way.  Then you have the terminals of Mason City and Des Moines, with a lot of local industries, meaning congestion.  

 Daily trains include 3 mainifests south from St. Paul.  Albert Lea local during the day, and three times a week at night going north to Owatonna.   An 80 to 100 car manifest originated in Mason City from local traffic south every day.  A 3 day a week local to Hampton.  A 6 day a week local to Iowa Falls from Des Moines.   The Iowa Falls industry job 5 days a week.  Two daytime industry jobs in Mason City.  The ICE transfer in Mason City.   A daily manifest from Eagle Grove to Des Moines.   Five manifests south of KC junction to Des Moines.  A daily manifest Des Moines to Marshalltown and return.    Add to it, coal to St. Paul and Mason City.  Grain to and from Mason City.  DDGs and Ethanol unit trains to Mason City.   Grain to St. Paul (Twin Ports).     So please tell me where all this capacity is?

[Anonymous]

This morning after church I made a U-turn and came back to the grade-crossing to watch a southbound UP unit grain train on BNSF's Hinckley Sub ~10:45 AM.  It was lead by two UP six-axle "wings" (my reference to the wing design on the locomotive nose) and the entire consist, save for a handful of lease hoppers (NAHX and a few other companies), were CN cylindrical hopper cars.  He was doing maybe 30-35 MPH, with around 70-80 cars in the train.  I didn't see a single UP or UP heritage marked car in the train.

[jeffhergert]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

Jeff,

Being a long-time CP employee (15 years) I personally think it was a very short-sighted decision back in 1996-97 to sell the "Kansas City Corn Lines.  To me, it was just the idea of giving up access to the Kansas City gateway that was very difficult to accept.  True, the CP was able to renew a lot of it's "core" trackage and was able to vastly modernize its fleet of locomotives.  For whatever reason, the CP passed up on some opportunites back in the late 80's and early 90's to expand south of Kansas City and it cost them.  But now, I think the new regime in place at CPRS sees the true value of the DME/ICE and access to the Kansas City gateway plus the fact that the ICE has done a pretty good job - IMHO - of winning back a lot of local business over the last few years.  I'm certainly not privy to any inside info but it's hard for me to imagine having the Kansas City gateway back in our fold not having a huge positive impact for us.  So yeah, I think we'll be around for the long-haul once we (hopefully) get the nod from the STB.     

I agree with what L A Rams Guy is saying.  I worked with a guy who had worked for the ICE.  He said a few of the friends he worked with their have said the CP's big interest is getting back the line to Kansas City.  I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually the DM&E portion is put up for sale. 

Jeff

  

[MP173]

I cannot see CP, or any of the big railroads not wanting a mainline (Ok, perhaps it should be designated as a secondary line) between the two largest rail centers (Chicago and KC). 

The days of shedding assets appear to be over for awhile in the industry.  Note the purchase of Ohio Central by G&W.

ed

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

Jeff,

Being a long-time CP employee (15 years) I personally think it was a very short-sighted decision back in 1996-97 to sell the "Kansas City Corn Lines.  To me, it was just the idea of giving up access to the Kansas City gateway that was very difficult to accept.  True, the CP was able to renew a lot of it's "core" trackage and was able to vastly modernize its fleet of locomotives.  For whatever reason, the CP passed up on some opportunites back in the late 80's and early 90's to expand south of Kansas City and it cost them.  But now, I think the new regime in place at CPRS sees the true value of the DME/ICE and access to the Kansas City gateway plus the fact that the ICE has done a pretty good job - IMHO - of winning back a lot of local business over the last few years.  I'm certainly not privy to any inside info but it's hard for me to imagine having the Kansas City gateway back in our fold not having a huge positive impact for us.  So yeah, I think we'll be around for the long-haul once we (hopefully) get the nod from the STB.     

[CGW]

Does anyone know why CP ditched the now ICE KC route?  Was that not a profitable line for CP?  Does anyone see CP keeping the KC line after the ICE/DME buy-out?

Jeff

[sandiego]

To Stix

Re: "One problem the Rock Island had is their line didn't really reach the Twin Cities. It only went as far north as I think Northfield, then used trackage rights to reach its yards in Minneapolis and St.Paul."

Not quite true. The RI used trackage rights on the MILW from Comus (just north of Faribault) to Rosemont. North of Rosemont RI had their own line to Inver Grove Yard. Just south of Inver Grove they had a line that split off to the east, crossed the Mississippi River, and then connected with the MILW at Newport. North of Newport the RI used trackage rights on the MILW and BN (ex-GN and NP lines) to make connections and to access their freight house in downtown Minneapolis.

Volume 2, Number 2 (Summer 2005) of "Remember the Rock" (Andover Junction Publications) has an excellent article about RI's Twin Cities operations, well worth reading.

One interesting item I found was the RI's train lineup as follows (year not specified):

Southbound
62—Inver Grove to Silvis
64—Inver Grove to Silvis
81—Inver Grove to KC

Northbound
61—South Chicago to Inver Grove
80—KC to Inver Grove

South of Manly traffic looked a little light with only one train each way.

In speculation, I wonder if the SOO had been able to acquire the RI line if they would have used their trackage rights from St. Paul to Inver Grove (already used by SOO's "Rocky-Soo" transfer as part of their rights to Roseport acquired courtesy of the CNW-CGW merger) in preference to operating over the MNS. I can't imagine running 100 car coal or grain trains over the roller-coaster, curvy, light rail, glorified ex-interurban MNS line.

Kurt Hayek

[wjstix]

One problem the Rock Island had is their line didn't really reach the Twin Cities. It only went as far north as I think Northfield, then used trackage rights to reach it's yards in Minneapolis and St.Paul. That's why the Soo bought the Minneapolis Northfield and Southern when it thought it was going to get the old Rock spine line, to connect the Rock Island line with the Soo's Twin City trackage.

[MP173]

Thanks Kurt.  Looking at the map I couldnt see a logical reason for granting the rights, but it basically was as you put it....buying them off.

Great report on the traffic moved.

ed

[sandiego]

To WIAR:

Thanks for the compliment! I switched every industry in the Duluth-Superior terminal at some point or another when I was an engineer there so I was able to pick up quite a bit of info on operations.
Also got a lot of freight car photos and information; sometimes our switch engine just HAD to stop to investigate something (I won't say what) in our travels. Photos of MILW 99999 (without graffiti) anyone?

The perlite loads for Cloquet that I mentioned before were a find for me as UP used a number of CNW and DRGW 4427 CF covered hoppers (among other interesting covered hoppers) in this pool and some had pretty good paint. They got switched around the yard several times coming and going so I was able to do something with them in many cases.

One of the few fringe benefits of working for the railroad.

Kurt Hayek

[Anonymous]

Wow, you're good!

[sandiego]

Because the CNW had filed objections to the merger claiming loss of traffic and this was one condition that the CNW wanted to help compensate them (and for them to withdraw their opposition to the merger).

The Soo Line got access to Roseport (south of St. Paul on the CGW) the same way by objecting to the CNW-CGW merger.

In plain terms, it's called buying off the opposition!

Kurt Hayek

[sandiego]

To WIAR

CP traffic on the Hinckley Subdivn. is primarily grain, otherwise it's on the light side. I remember seeing SOO/CP trains going by Northtown enroute to Superior with two big units (SD40/SD40-2/SD60) and 20 or 25 cars, ideal size for a model railroad (not often you can model an entire train like that). Anyway, here's a listing of most of the traffic handled as follows:

Grain—As I mentioned this is the majority of the traffic, grain loads to elevators in Duluth/Superior and mtys back. Also some grain loadouts from elevators to southern destinations, mostly occurring during the winter when lake boats aren't running. I've seen many unit trains of loaded UELX/ADMX covered hoppers (to ADM at Decatur?) from CHS (ex-Harvest States) elevator being interchanged back to the CP (BN switches elevator), some other cars used also but mostly the UELX/ADMX cars.

Also CP has run grain shuttles directly into the BNSF 28th Street yard. The BNSF takes the loads to the elevator, brings the mtys back to 28th St., and makes up the outbound train complete with CP power for the CP road crew to take. At one time the SOO brought much grain to the Head of the Lakes via the Brooten line which cut off east of Glenwood at Brooton but since that line is now gone everything moves via Hinckley Subdivn.

Other traffic:

Interchange with CN (ex-DWP) at Pokegama, mostly for on-line CP destinations.

Perlite—From Antonito, Colo. (UP, ex-DRGW). Received from the UP at St. Paul.
Clay slurry—From the southeast US.
Note: These cars are "interchanged" to the BNSF at Superior who handles them to Cloquet for delivery to the Cloquet Terminal (ex-D&NE). This traffic is a holdover from MILW days when the MILW had trackage rights on the NP from St. Paul to Duluth, from Carlton to Superior, and from Carlton to Cloquet. I use quotes around interchanged because it's really CP traffic all the way to Cloquet, but just moved by the BNSF instead.

Lime—From CLM Corp. (ex-Cutler-Magner) on the Superior bayfront on the ex-LST&T (which was jointly owned by BN, CNW, and SOO). Industry switched by BNSF and cars interchanged back to CP at Superior.
Some of this lime is used at the Minneapolis Water Works in Fridley for water softening; their rail spur on the west side of Northtown Yard at 44th Ave. NE. What I found amazing was BN picked up the lime loads, gave them to the CP at Superior, CP then handled to Pig's Eye, switched cars there, then via transfer to BNSF at N'town, switched again, moved to Grove Yard and switched again, and finally spotted at industry. After all that the CP had a lower rate than BN direct!

Cement—From Holcim (St. Lawrence Cement) at Duluth (arrives via lake boat).

Steel scrap—From Azcon Corp. in Duluth.

Hardboard—From Georgia Pacific in Duluth (via BNSF switching).

I probably missed some traffic but I think this covers most of it.

Kurt Hayek

[MP173]

Why was CNW given trackage rights to the Head of the Lakes as a condition of BN Frisco merger?  I am trying to piece that together and cannot.

ed

[Anonymous]

In this discussion the major source of the UP's business between Superior & Minneapolis has been accounted-for.  What then is the CP's majority business on the Hinckley Sub?

[sandiego]

To Nordique72:

Thanks for the train symbol info. Thanks also for the date on the switch from the New Richmond Subdivn. to the BN, I don't have all my reference material available and took a bit of a guess.

After my last message I remembered more about the switch on the north trains and thought I'd mention some other details. I was working in the CNW Twin Cities Divn. Engineering Department at the time and some of the people in the office were involved in the abandonment studies.

The New Richmond Subdivn. was all 90 and 100# rail with a few miles of 9030 CWR, tie and surface so-so, on-line business meager with some at New Richmond and Shell Lake and very little else, although at one time there had been more business, basically dairy/cheese/agricultural. Trains 461/462 were the only regular trains and they also handled whatever wayfreight work there was. However, the line was used as a detour for all-rail ore trains to avoid the Chippewa River bridge at Chip. Falls (although the bridge could handle 100 ton cars and even C628's the concentrated loading from short ore cars was too much for it).

When the bridge at Chip. Falls was reinforced the handwriting was on the wall for the New Rich. I recall that there were studies on rerouting 461/462 via Yukon Jct. at Eau Claire and then north to Spooner.

About this time BN-SLSF merger was approved by the ICC and the CNW received trackage rights on the BN to Head of the Lakes as a condition of the merger. Initially, CNW trains entered onto the ex-NP "Skally" line at a connection about a mile east of East St. Paul Yard, then used the Skally to Hinckley, and the ex-GN from Hinckley to Saunders (south of Superior).

From Saunders the first route studied was the ex-GN ore line to Allouez which split off at Saunders. CNW trains would go through Allouez Yard (the yard for ore trains going to the Allouez ore docks) and around an existing connection to the north end of Itasca Yard. The connection is still there, used by the UP for car storage but the BN end is red-flagged. Track conditions were marginal on the connection and BN train and yard movements could cause problems so the idea was dropped, although some trains may have used that routing.

The next route studied was the DMIR from Saunders to South Itasca, which is still being used.

Concurrently, the Minnesota Highway Department wanted the CNW and BN yards in downtown Duluth for highway I-35 but that's where the CNW (and also BN and MILW) interchanged with the DWP. The state ended up paying for improvements on the DMIR so the DWP could run from Nopeming (where they crossed over the DMIR) to South Itasca and also paid for the DWP's new yard at Pokegema.

As part of the deal the CNW received money to build a new yard along the south side of the DMIR at South Itasca. We did quite a bit of preliminary planning and surveying (including chopping a lot of brush) but the yard was never built; the CNW did upgrade some of the yard tracks at Itasca and installed 11525 CWR from Itasca to Superior with part of the money, but I think the CNW snuck off with the rest of it.

Around 1990 (not sure of exact year) the BN abandoned part of the Skally so the CNW trains moved over to the ex-GN line from Hinckley to East Minneapolis.

Kurt Hayek

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

The UP now has that route, and it is a favorite with CP in the CamAM corridor, as well as ethanol traffic.   The 112 pound rail is slowly going away, and more CTC is being added.   Crew change points are St. Paul, Mason City, and Des Moines.  South of Des Moines, the Spine is directional running south.  Northbound traffic comes via the Falls City sub to Omaha, then east to the Spine.   It allows far more capacity.  

 There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine.   Same goes for Intermodal.

The IC&E route cannot compete with UP's Spine.    You end up adding an extra day of transit from Mason City for example to KC.  

Actually, Ken, the CP/ICE River mainline competes quite well with the (now) UP "Spine Line" mainline.  True, it isn't as direct as the "Spine Line" but the Milwaukee Road proved in the early 80's they could effectively move trains in this corridor and had the lion's share of the traffic when it had the marketing agreement with the GTW/DWP.  I have no doubt that my employer, Canadian Pacific Railway, will do a fine job with it once the acquisition is completed of the DME/ICE.

There will NEVER be enough capacity on the Spine Line for Amtrak?  Are you kidding me?  If there is ever going to be service in this corridor this is where it has to be.  I can almost see UP's argument that the "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa is too congested but the "Spine Line"?  Please. 

[nordique72]

Kurt,

The MPRIT/MITPR are now run as the MBUIT/MITBU six days a week between Butler and Itasca- south of Butler the traffic is forwarded via the Proviso-Butler manifests. Train sizes vary- as the the northbound to Itasca is usually the larger train of the two. The several times I saw them this summer the southbound train was on average less than 20 cars.

1982 was when the New Richmond Sub. between Spooner and Northline was abandoned in favor of the BN's trackage rights north to the Twin Ports. ITPRA/PRITA came off the old routing via Spooner in August 1992 to the current routing via Junction City and Necedah.

 

 

[sandiego]

I wondered in a previous message about current UP traffic on the "Spine Line" and then investigated my back issues of North Western Lines for some answers. As of February 2007 here's the train lineup (if you UP guys have newer info please post it for everyone):

Northbound:
MDMMC—Des Moines (Short Line Yard) to Mason City
MDMCN—Des Moines (Short Line Yard) to CN-South Itasca (Superior, Wisc.)
MNPSS—North Platte to South St. Paul
MKCCP—Kansas City (Neff Yard) to CP-St. Paul

Southbound:
MCPFW—CP-St. Paul to Forth Worth
MCNKC—CN-South Itasca to Kansas City (Neff Yard)
MSSNP—South St. Paul to North Platte
MMCDM—Mason City to Des Moines (Short Line Yard)

Anyway, that's six regular trains north and eight south of Mason City plus coal, grain, and ethanol; respectable indeed.

The CN traffic coming south from the Head of the Lakes goes way back to the 1970's and earlier. At one time it was handled by CNW trains 461/462 (the "North Man" as we called them on the CNW in the Cities) via the New Richmond Subdivn., later via trackage rights on the BN/BNSF after 1981 or so.

I remember reading about the UP-CN agreement on Chicago-South Itasca traffic but don't have the information available for reference. As I recall, they agreed to make interchange on traffic destined for UP points south of Chicago at South Itasca instead of Chicago. When the CN took over the WC the UP lost a lot of that traffic as the CN didn't want to short-haul themselves but I guess CN got more than they bargained for. Don't remember what they worked out on rate divisions.

Not sure of train symbols although I believe that MPRIT (Proviso-Itasca) and MITPR (Itasca-Proviso) are still running. Routing is CN (ex-SOO) to Junction City, CN (ex-MILW) to Necedah, and UP (ex-CNW) to Proviso.

Years ago the CNW handled this traffic on trains 406/417 and 408/415 (later ITPRA and PRITA) via Spooner and Altoona.

Now the CN business is about all the UP has at Duluth/Superior, unlike during CNW days when there was lots of grain traffic for boat loading and also bentonite to the DMIR (and eastern coal loadouts via lake boat going way back). UP dried up the grain business with 100-car shuttle rates to the West Coast, Mexico, and the Southern and Southwestern US. What little grain moves now are loadouts of oats, barley, and some wheat from Duluth/Superior elevators to southern mills (Quaker Oats-Cedar Rapids or Rahr Malting-Shakopee for example).

Kurt Hayek

[Anonymous]

Ken,

 How much traffic is the CN now handing the UP at Duluth/Superior to avoid Chicago nowadays? I had recalled the UP was touting this a while back to help the CN avoid their Chicago gridlock- and is the CP now doing this too via Minneapolis/St. Paul? I had noticed we get a MCPFW down here in Texas now that occasionally shoots a CP or SOO unit beyond Fort Worth here to Houston.

Just about every UP job I see traversing the BNSF Hinckley Sub up here between Superior & Minneapolis is pulling a lot of CN-family rolling stock.  I'm not watching everyday, but I think there's a UP daily freight in both directions at least.  I've wondered for a while why there's all those CN-affiliated reporting marks rolling past.  I've even occasionally seen CN power on UP trains.

[nordique72]

Ken,

 How much traffic is the CN now handing the UP at Duluth/Superior to avoid Chicago nowadays? I had recalled the UP was touting this a while back to help the CN avoid their Chicago gridlock- and is the CP now doing this too via Minneapolis/St. Paul? I had noticed we get a MCPFW down here in Texas now that occasionally shoots a CP or SOO unit beyond Fort Worth here to Houston.

[nordique72]

WIAR-

 Despite the second crossing I gotta disagree with you there- a 26 mile connector over that many creek valleys and two railroad crossings would be exponentially larger in cost than a 2 mile connector with one overpass (over the CNW main) at Marshalltown. Given the topography it would be easier to bridge the Iowa and join up with MSTL at Albion - not Union, which would have put the line in the Iowa flood plain until the connection (and crossing six tributary creeks, five at their mouths to the Iowa as well or even crossing the Iowa itself).

Look closely at the topographics of the area and you'll see there is very little room against the bluff wall to skirt without having to cross the river itself or several small creeks in the floodplain south of Union- look about a mile south of Union and you'll see a particularily severe horseshoe in the river by the mouth of Dowd Creek that hugs the western bluff of the river, after a sharp closing of the western floodplain- not much room to effectively put a rail line in there without bridging to the eastern floodplain (perhaps even why the Iowa Central- later MSTL- jumped west to east here?) or leaving the floodplain and then re-entering it (think of the gradients needed to do that). And check out Mormon Ridge by Minerva too! Crossing at the point to Albion I was looking at would have bridged the Iowa, Minerva watersheds and the CNW branch in one small area- while a line up to Union would have constituted two (on in my opine three) crossings of the latter for the best profile and least chance of wash outs.

 As an example of such- the ex-CNW Sioux City Sub in the Missouri floodplain btween California Jct and Sioux City is seemingly a great location for a rail line- given the low profile in the valley, but it's a maintenance nightmare with multiple creek crossings and the soft shifting grounds of the floodplain itself. UP has been constantly frustrated by the lumpiness of the profile there despite how many times they and the CNW in the past have tried to keep in in check.

Checking in southeast of the town of Marietta- south of Albion- the line could have jumped the divide and joined up without subjecting itself to running in the Iowa River floodplain (narrow as it is by topo map), avoiding Mormon Ridge, bridging the Iowa, or crossing the CNW branch with a semi-decent profile. To run it over the five creek valleys and over two rail crossings would not be more cost effective than a short connector on the far west side of Marshalltown (no houses to tear down or buy out- though still an engineering pain) or a shorter connection to the south side of Albion. Yahoo is good for the snapshot- but check the topos for the negative- and you're right- this is fun.