What's your favorite pre-Amtrak passenger train?

[cstaats]

Erie-Lackawanna's Phoebe Snow or the Owl. Though they took longer than either NYC or the Pennsy they were more blue collar. This appealed to my New Jersey upbringing. Plus I could catch the train in Hoboken rather than in New York City.

[eastside]

Those I actually traveled on:
20th Century Limited
Memorable accommodations, staff, and meals; the way to go to NYC
Empire Builder
Really deluxe throughout, especially the full-length dome cars
Arrow
Like a well-worn and familiar chair

The ones I wanted to ride but missed:
California Zephyr
Either of the Chiefs
Panama Limited

Much as I wish Amtrak well, it's almost a travesty to try to compare any of the above with the Amtrak trains with the same names. Different times different needs.

[Anonymous]

My father worked as a station agent for 40+ years for the L&N, SCL-Family Lines, CSX systems. I have a couple of favorites....

The Hummingbird - L&N - He and I rode the last run of the Hummingbird before Amtrak took over. Rode north to Elizabethton, KY and turned around and took it home.

The Silver Comet - SAL and SCL - Rode it as a kid to New York on 2 occasions and to Washington once. Sleeping car every time. Great fun for a kid!

James McKenzie
Tideman80

[UPTRAIN]

Two words...TEXAS EAGLE...the old Mo-Pac train. I remember riding behing those old Es in the observation car as a kid. Miss the a lot.

[Kozzie]

Yes espeefoamer, I reckon that is right. Sydney on the east coast, connected with Perth on the west coast by standard gauge in 1970. FInally! Pete (M636C) can double check us on this...

And this year, south to north right through the centre. Once again..finally!

Kozzie

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

OK Pete - I'll start it off - I'll call it the thread "The Folly of the Different Gauges"

I'm going to keep it initally pretty basic. I heard about three gauges in South Australia, but I reckon at this stage it's best to start it off with the general outline and go from there. that makes for better reading I reckon.

Maybe you can add those extras as people comment?

Don't forget to check my time lines - I'm a bit hazy on when the standard gauges connected through etc etc....

Cheers

Kozzie[;)]

I recall reading,(most likely in Trains,) that the through standard gauge line across Austrailia wasn't completed until 1970.

[Kozzie]

OK Pete - I'll start it off - I'll call it the thread "The Folly of the Different Gauges"

I'm going to keep it initally pretty basic. I heard about three gauges in South Australia, but I reckon at this stage it's best to start it off with the general outline and go from there. that makes for better reading I reckon.

Maybe you can add those extras as people comment?

Don't forget to check my time lines - I'm a bit hazy on when the standard gauges connected through etc etc....

Cheers

Kozzie[;)]

[M636C]

Kozzie,

Railpub.Com, with a link from the Trains.Com shopping page have copies of "Some Classic Trains" for $US 100 for a good copy, $US 60 with a poor dust jacket. No mention of "More Classic Trains".

Peter

[daveklepper]

Still the California Zephyr

[M636C]

GARR,

That's probably it!

Was it the Central of Georgia that had E units with a scheme reminiscent of B&O?

Peter

[garr]

Hello Peter,

Maybe you are confusing the Georgia Road with the Central of Georgia Railway, which was a part of the Southern Railway and thus now is in Norfolk Southern. It was a much larger system than the Georgia Road.

GARR

[M636C]

Kozzie,

I guess posting a new thread on rail gauges in Australia will get a few readers, and I'd be happy to correct or add to it. I hope you don't get confused about the situation in South Australia where there were three gauges together in different places at different times.

To GARR,

I wonder what road I was confusing the Georgia with? I certainly didn't think it lasted that long! The RF&P was another system that lasted a long time as an independent line, although it was effectively part of CSX for some time before the name was discarded. I think there were some legal or tax advantages that kept that line separate.

Peter

[garr]

Hello Kozzie,

Usually there were only two other freinds with me. The cabooses(cabeese?) used on the mixed trains had an area with two double passenger seats. This passenger service was very lightly used and we never encountered other passengers-so there was plenty of room. Plus the crews were more than happy to let us sit in the bay windows or cupola, according to which type of caboose was on the train.

Whenever one of the two Budd coaches was in the shop, the back-up passenger car was a light weight Pullman, 'Alabama River", previously used on the "Southern Crescent" passenger train. This car was kept very clean since it was used each year as lodging for the Georgia Road's guests to the Masters' Golf Tourney. On the few trips we took when the Pullman was subbing, the crew was more than happy to ride the passenger car.

By the way, Amtrak's first day of operation was May 1, 1971. The Georgia Road was never a part of Amtrak.

GARR

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

Hello again Kozzie,

M636C was close, however the Georgia Road was fully absorbed into the Seaboard System in 1982, which is now the "S" in CSX. Before that-dating all the way back to the 1880's and 1890's-it was under L&N and ACL control-which eventually became the major components of The Family Lines.

The only reason the mixed trains survived until May 6,1983 was because of favorable tax benefits,spelled out in the Georgia Road's 1834 charter, for providing passenger service. Fortunately, or unfortunately according to one's perspective, the charter didn't spell out the quality of service. Once the Georgia Road was fully absorbed by Searboard System the tax benefits disappeared thus the end of the mixed trains.

The Georgia Road was entirely within the state of Georgia. The mainline ran, and still runs under CSX, from Augusta(site of the Masters' golf tourney) to Atlanta(site of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games-something famailiar to Austrailians).

I lived in Thomson,GA which was on a slight grade for westbound trains. The mixed trains were almost always 125+ cars in the late 1970's when I mostly rode them. The crews did not like stopping that long of a train on the grade so my friends and I would make "running" boardings. The train would be going a few miles-per-hour and the conductor or flagman would grab our arms and
pull us aboard. Most of the time we rode in the caboose because the crew generally didn't like to ride in the dusty Budd coach and a trainman was always required to be with the passengers. All this for only 35 cents!!!
GARR

Hey GARR, I liked your story immensely! [:)] As I read your story of catching the trains that would only slow down, I could picture it in my mind. Great reading. [:D]

Those days are well and truly gone now. [:(]

You mentioned that Amtrak was formed when you were 9. What year was Amtrak formed? Was it in the late 1960s?

Was there enough room in the caboose for you, your friends, and the crew? [:0]

Kozzie

[garr]

Hello again Kozzie,

M636C was close, however the Georgia Road was fully absorbed into the Seaboard System in 1982, which is now the "S" in CSX. Before that-dating all the way back to the 1880's and 1890's-it was under L&N and ACL control-which eventually became the major components of The Family Lines.

The only reason the mixed trains survived until May 6,1983 was because of favorable tax benefits,spelled out in the Georgia Road's 1834 charter, for providing passenger service. Fortunately, or unfortunately according to one's perspective, the charter didn't spell out the quality of service. Once the Georgia Road was fully absorbed by Searboard System the tax benefits disappeared thus the end of the mixed trains.

The Georgia Road was entirely within the state of Georgia. The mainline ran, and still runs under CSX, from Augusta(site of the Masters' golf tourney) to Atlanta(site of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games-something famailiar to Austrailians).

I lived in Thomson,GA which was on a slight grade for westbound trains. The mixed trains were almost always 125+ cars in the late 1970's when I mostly rode them. The crews did not like stopping that long of a train on the grade so my friends and I would make "running" boardings. The train would be going a few miles-per-hour and the conductor or flagman would grab our arms and
pull us aboard. Most of the time we rode in the caboose because the crew generally didn't like to ride in the dusty Budd coach and a trainman was always required to be with the passengers. All this for only 35 cents!!!
GARR

[Kozzie]

Hey Peter (M636C)

I e-mailed Ed Blysard the story of the different gauges downunder.

If I cut and pasted it in the Forum, could you check it out and supply any corrections ?

Quite a few of the "Up Over" crew are interested in various aspects of Oz RRs...

Kozzie

[M636C]

Kozzie,

Yes, these books were purchased in Australia. I'm not sure if "Some Classic Trains" is still available. I guess it would be listed on the Kalmbach site somewhere if it is.

But no, these books are entirely in black and white, which is a pity, but many of the photographs date back to the 1930s and earlier and predate colour photography as a normal technique. I know some rare colour photos predate this, but they were rare and complex to take and view.

The best book shops for rail subjects in Australia are the ARHS (NSW) shop in 67 Renwick street, Redfern close to Redfern railway station, (which I use a lot) and the Railfan Shop in Market St, Melbourne. The Railway Shop in South Brisbane station has some interesting titles, and I'm sure you've been there.

Larger book shops might order in titles if you can identify the publisher, or you might be able to buy from the Internet.

I think the Georgia Railroad was taken over by the Southern, and if it is still in use would be part of Norfolk Southern, (but I could be wrong!)

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

Hello Kozzie,

Georgia Railroad mixed freights-one of 2 Budd coaches or a substituting pullman in front of the caboose on a 125 car freight!!! All this for 35 cents from Thomson to Camak, GA-approx. 11miles of 140+ mile main- as late as 1983.

I was nine when Amtrak was formed so I never experienced the sleeker streamliners. What the Georgia Road lacked in sleekness it made up in character!

GARR

Hey GARR, that's a very unusual mixed train!

I reckon if one ever ran a shorter version of that on an exhibition
layout at a train show, it would sure cause a few commets! ha ha!
Then you could say it really did happen! [:D] [(-D]

Is Georgia RR still running? or did it get swallowed up? [:I]

Kozzie

kozzie

[garr]

Hello Kozzie,

Georgia Railroad mixed freights-one of 2 Budd coaches or a substituting pullman in front of the caboose on a 125 car freight!!! All this for 35 cents from Thomson to Camak, GA-approx. 11miles of 140+ mile main- as late as 1983.

I was nine when Amtrak was formed so I never experienced the sleeker streamliners. What the Georgia Road lacked in sleekness it made up in character!

GARR

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Guys,

I thought I might mention a couple of really good books on pre-Amtrak passenger trains, being Arthur Dubin's "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains". The second was reprinted fairly recently by Interurban Press, but both were originally Kalmbach books and based on "Trains" articles from the 1960s (mainly).

While they don't cover everything, the combination of history, car photos, including interiors, and photos of complete trains takes a lot of beating. It doesn't cover GN in the "Big Sky Blue" era and the CN "Tempos" don't get a mention, but it's easier to quote the few thing missings than what's in the books.

Peter

[:)] Thanks Pete - I guess we can get those books downunder too?

Are any of the photos colour or mainly B&W?

Dave
(Kozzie)

[M636C]

Guys,

I thought I might mention a couple of really good books on pre-Amtrak passenger trains, being Arthur Dubin's "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains". The second was reprinted fairly recently by Interurban Press, but both were originally Kalmbach books and based on "Trains" articles from the 1960s (mainly).

While they don't cover everything, the combination of history, car photos, including interiors, and photos of complete trains takes a lot of beating. It doesn't cover GN in the "Big Sky Blue" era and the CN "Tempos" don't get a mention, but it's easier to quote the few thing missings than what's in the books.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Kozzie--

Thank you, mate, but I truly cannot claim credit for it. Is there a good plural for "van"??

Hey drephpe! I loved your Aussie slang! [:D]

But a plural of Van? Ugh! [:0] You've got me! [;)]

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

Kozzie--

Thank you, mate, but I truly cannot claim credit for it. Is there a good plural for "van"??

[Kozzie]

Hey drephpe! I love "cabeese" a good plural for caboose [:D]

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I also liked the Katy/FriscoTexas Special......One classy train......

My favorite steam railroad to model is the Katy (MKT). One of the reasons is that the Katy never bought anything larger than a Mikdado and Pacific.... The black locomotives with white wheels pulling yellow freight cars and the red cabooses.....what a sight.....

Why Katy went green with yellow lettering in the diesel freight era is beyond me.....

The Sloan-era cabeese were also yellow (if they got painted), but some stayed boxcar red.

Reg Whitman once told me they went green for a couple of reasons:

1. Different image.
2. Didn't fade to pink like the red ones always did.

By the way the green is "John Deere Green" only in mythology. It is actually Katy green, which was a separate color chip.

[cudjoebob]

wouldn't it have been grand if the florida east coast key west extension had survived into the streamliner era? stainless steel "champion" on PRR, ACL to jacksonville, and FEC to key west!

[conrailnut]

I would have to say my favorite pre-Amtrak passenger train would be the Santa Fe El Capitan 1969. It was my first train trip.

[wcaudle]

I used to ride the Portland Rose and the City of Denver, on the Union Pacific. They were sleek, fast, and , of course, Armour Yellow painted.

[passengerfan]

Upon further thought would have to include Southern Crescent as a favorite with green and white E-units leading sometimes twenty stainless steel cars. Only train operating in the south with master room, most deluxe of all Pullman accommodations. The food was excellent and crews always friendly.
Another contender would have to be the Western Star during early sixties summer months when consists often ran to twenty cars with cars destined for Glacier National Park. The Star was a more casual train then the Builder and many locals traveled the train making for interesting conversations in the lounge car.
Best North American trains for scenery Alaska Railroads Denali between Anchorage and Fairbanks and the British Columbia Railway Dayliners between N. Vancouver and Prince George. Another train that comes to mind in this category would be the long gone Shasta Daylight between Portland and Oakland.
Most comfortable Coach train in America would have to be the Santa Fe Hi-Level El Capitan between Los Angeles and Chicago.
North Coast Limited probably America's friendliest train both crew and passengers. Most disappointing train in America was the Olympian Hiawatha inspite of best looking observation on any train. Traveled this train between Chicago and Seattle with passenger count for entire train at 39. Mind you it was winter but have ridden both the Builder and North Coast Limited between same pointes in winter and they were never less than full.
Most underated train in America the Ocean between Montreal and Halifax. Rode this train when it inherited the former Milwaukee Olympian Hiawatha observations and found it to be superb in every manner.
Fastest North American train rides before Amtrak that I have personally experienced CB&Q Twin Zephyrs, CN Rapido, CN Turbo and CMSTP&P Afternoon Hiawatha.