why the right side?

[willy6]

In America we drive the car/truck from the left side,pilots fly the plane from the left side, boats are operated from the right side, why was it decided that a locomotive engineer would operate from the right side?

[Anonymous]

I was wondering that myself, there's bound to be a good reason for it....

Perhaps something to do with the way steam engines were originally made or something?

I'd like to know as well.

[Modelcar]

....How about the signals being originally installed on the right side of the ROW....

[Anonymous]

It's not signals; right-hand operation on double track predates the invention of the signal by at least 30 years.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Could it have anything to do with the fact that most people are right handed? This may have been found to be the best location dating back to the earliest locomotives. Keep in mind that the fireman needs room to do his job.

Mark, I see why you are saying that it is not the signals, that is a chicken and egg argument. The engineer was already sitting on the right side of the cab, when signals were invented. The signals were placed on the right side of the track in most cases.

What about the Union Pacific, didn't they run left hand main? The cabs on their locomotives were engineer right side, correct?[%-)][%-)]

That would be quite a breeze in your face, if you were the engineer with your window open, when two trains passed at 120 MPH velocity difference.

[Anonymous]

It's probably because platforms and loading docks were built to the right side of the rails. An engineer would have a pretty rough time gauging where to stop if he's on the far side of the train from the platform. Just a guess....

Erik[banghead]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

It's probably because platforms and loading docks were built to the right side of the rails. An engineer would have a pretty rough time gauging where to stop if he's on the far side of the train from the platform. Just a guess....

Erik[banghead]

Hmmmmm Erik, I'm not so sure about this theory. For every example that you can show me that is on the RIGHT side, I can show you one on the WRONG SIDE, just turn the engine around, "RIGHT"?[:D][banghead][%-)][swg][swg][swg]

[M636C]

Guys,

Here in Australia, as some of you will know, we drive on the opposite side of the road, and sit on the opposite (right) side of the car, and yes the trains run on the other track and locomotive controls are on the left side.

HOWEVER (comma) our steam locomotives were originally driven on the right side, and this was not changed until about 1900 or a bit later, and the reason for the change then was to see the signals (on the left side) more clearly.

But our early locomotives came from England, where they must also have driven on the right although their signals were on the left as are ours. So it must go back to the 1830s in the very beginning.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Here it is or at least the my stab at it:

The Tacondaroga (if I spelled it correctly) wagon was the wagon that helped settle the west. The controls for the wagon (brakes, reigns) where on the left hand side so it was easier to pass oncoming wagons on the left side vs the British method of passing on the right side. The first steam engines where from British plans and/or influence. The British did not use the popular Tacondaroga wagon, hence the controls where on the right.

[Anonymous]

I've poked through my library looking for a definitive statement and haven't found one. So, here at least are some possibilities.

All early U.S. locomotives of which I found illustrations last night show the controls on the right-hand side. The valve settings (the critical control) are direct mechanical linkages located outside of the driving wheels, which places them on the very outside of the locomotive. The choice, then, is to place them on the far left outside or the far right outside, and since most people are right-handed, presumably the early designers did what seemed intuitively obvious and chose right-handed. (What would have happened if Trevethick et al. were left-handed)?

Once double-track became necessary for traffic conditions, the logical thing to do is to "hand" the tracks, one for eastward, the other for westward traffic. But in itself the right-hand locomotive doesn't require you to have right-hand traffic, and a few railroads, notably C&NW and portions of the Santa Fe, chose left-hand.

However, because stations are to the outside of the tracks, right-hand locomotives make it easier to have right-hand direction. That allows the engineer to easily receive a signal from the conductor on the platform (the time-honored highball), to easily pick-up train orders from an operator standing on the platform, and provides him with better visibility of the train-order semaphore or passengers waiting on the platform as his train approaches. The fireman, one would hope, has his head down attending to his fire, and is not idly gazing at the passing scenery.

At a later date, signaling appears, first in interlockings and later automatic block signals. Again, as a simple field-side mast placed to the outside of the track (unless you want to spread the track centers for clearance) is the cheapest solution, right-hand operation gives a better view. Otherwise you have to put your signals on signal bridges to place it where the engineer can see it. It doesn't do you much good to see the signal only in advance; it's necessary to see the signal right up to the moment you pass it.

Today, it makes less difference. But on a passenger railroad, if you want to place your stations on the left-hand side, you'll either need left-hand operation or two men in the cab, if you want efficiency and safety.

Interestingly, mine trucks are all left-hand drive. Most open-pit mines started out as right-hand operation but most now have shifted to left-hand to protect the operator in case of collision. This is not as unusual as you might think -- not operator error, but road conditions: soft spots and slip outs cause a heavily laden truck to abruptly lurch.

[willy6]

I cannot go with the right handed theory. If your head is hanging out the right side window and you have to turn a valve which hand you going to use?Also on modern locomotives they have a clipboard mounted on the console, by looking at the location a right handed engineer would have to get up out of the chair to write on the clip board.

[Anonymous]

This is true, but on early locomotives there was no window, and no cab at all. Nor were there any valves to turn, but rather just a throttle lever and a valve lever (or reversing lever). You stood on a platform at the back of the locomotive and looked straight ahead into the breeze, eyes smarting from the wood smoke washing over you. Your right hand rested naturally on the reversing lever (the Johnson bar).

You're correct, later on, if you are peering out the cab window, now your body has shifted to the outside of the controls, and now your left hand is on the throttle or on the Johnson bar, and that's what most photographs indicate. But by that time the right-hand orientation apparently had already been established as standard.

Consider also that most right-handed people are also right-eye dominant (I certainly am). That favors right-hand location of the engineer as well, if you're going to be looking past a long boiler. I don't know if people thought about this in detail, but if one was building a steam locomotive, and wondered which side to put the controls on, intuitively I think they would put them on the right-hand side, unless they were left-handed and left-eye dominant.

I'm not following you on the clipboard reference. Most engineers don't have to write anything down en route, unless it's to copy a track warrant or Form A or Form B restriction. In two-man operation, the warrant or track bulletin instruction is copied by the conductor or assistant engineer if the train is moving, as operating rules on most railroads require the train to be stopped if the engineer is to copy an authority or restriction in writing. (A major source of delay for one-man Amtrak trains, by the way.)

Thinking about this, if one was to do it all over again, and could choose either side, I think I'd still go for the right-hand side if there is any sort of nose to look around. If the locomotive was blunt-ended, and had no switching to do en route, and had no platforms to worry about, then I might choose the location that worked best for my right-handedness. Many high-speed trains center the engineer in the cab.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C


But our early locomotives came from England, where they must also have driven on the right although their signals were on the left as are ours. So it must go back to the 1830s in the very beginning.

I had always thought that the British used the left side and that the right side was just a North American thing.

Another interesting thing to mention is that on vintage clockwork wind-up toy trains, the side that the keyhole is placed on the locomotive varies in the same way. Ones made in North America had it on the right side and British/European made ones had it on the left side.

[Hugh Jampton]

It's another one of these which colour is the color things isn't it.
In the UK they run on the left, and any steam engine I've ever worked on has had the drivers controls on the left, and so do multiple units (Budd car type things) where there is an interconnecting gangway.
I was in the National Railway Museum last week and I am sure that The Rocket was driven from the left hand side as well.

[Anonymous]

Hugh: As did some American locomotives. As near as I can tell, the John Bull was left-hand operated.

Next week, I'll see if I can get one of the experts to answer this. Now I'm curious, too!

[Noah Hofrichter]

I wonder if It might have to do with the engineer being on the oppisite side of the cab when trains pass for some sort of saftey reason[?][?] I don't know for sure, its just a guess.

Noah

[M636C]

Guys,

I thought I might check my facts on Australian steam locomotives, and I find that the NSW Vulcan Foundry "H" class 4-4-0 of 1887 was right hand drive, but the 1892 Beyer Peacock "P" class 4-6-0 of 1892 was built as left hand drive. This was a bit earlier than I had indicated. Baldwin locomotives purchased about this time for use in NSW were right hand drive, however.

As to British locomotives, the side may have varied from one railway to another, but the London and North Eastern Railway class A1, including the well known 4472 "Flying Scotsman" were initially built as right hand drive. So were the other LNER contemporary "pacific" type locomotives, the class A2 designed by Sir Vincent Raven, suggesting that both the Great Northern and North Eastern railways used right hand drive at the time of the grouping in 1923.

It appears that the later Gresley locomotives of class A3, with higher pressure boilers, were built with left hand drive from about 1928. However, some locomotives built with right hand drive retained this feature until at least 1951, following nationalization of British Railways, even if they had been rebuilt with the higher pressure boilers. "Flying Scotsman" had been rebuilt before its withdrawal for preservation, and had left hand drive during its visit to the USA.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
I thought I might check my facts on Australian steam locomotives, and I find that the NSW Vulcan Foundry "H" class 4-4-0 of 1887 was right hand drive, but the 1892 Beyer Peacock "P" class 4-6-0 of 1892 was built as left hand drive. This was a bit earlier than I had indicated. Baldwin locomotives purchased about this time for use in NSW were right hand drive, however.
As to British locomotives, the side may have varied from one railway to another, but the London and North Eastern Railway class A1, including the well known 4472 "Flying Scotsman" were initially built as right hand drive. So were the other LNER contemporary "pacific" type locomotives, the class A2 designed by Sir Vincent Raven, suggesting that both the Great Northern and North Eastern railways used right hand drive at the time of the grouping in 1923.
It appears that the later Gresley locomotives of class A3, with higher pressure boilers, were built with left hand drive from about 1928. However, some locomotives built with right hand drive retained this feature until at least 1951, following nationalization of British Railways, even if they had been rebuilt with the higher pressure boilers. "Flying Scotsman" had been rebuilt before its withdrawal for preservation, and had left hand drive during its visit to the USA.

Are you trying to help us find the answer, or confuse us more?? [8)][?][?][:D]

[M636C]

macguy,

I'm trying to help find an answer!

But you won't find the right answer by assuming that "all British locomotives were left hand drive" which is clearly not correct.

The reason British locomotives changed over (those that needed to), was for better sighting of signals, on the left in Britain. This was the same reason for the change in Australia. This was not a consideration in the USA, since right hand drive was already the correct side.

But the fact that locomotives were built in England with right hand drive until the mid 1920s means something, even if it was just following a tradition that existed at that time.

I'm sorry if the previous post seemed confusing, but the point was relatively clear to me, even if I hadn't expressed it well.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

[Anonymous]

CPR and CN locomotives are all (AFAIK) standard North American right-hand operation. I have never seen an exception, and if there is one, I would be astonished were if anything more than one or two.

[AntonioFP45]

I agree with you Mark, however, if you have an opportunity check out this movie!

The scene with the engineer driving the F unit on the left side is where the "bad guy" hijacks the locomotive and orders the engineer to keep his foot on the "deadman peddle". It is a CP unit painted in the red with white stripes scheme.

[M636C]

Guys,

At the risk of confusing people further, I thought I'd check to see which side Canadian steam locomotives were driven. The answer appears to be on the right side, at least that is where the power reverse units were.

Canadian diesels all seem to have rear vision mirrors on the left side, but that doesn't prove anything.

However, I think Canadian railroads run on the left hand track where they have double track, or at least that's my recollection of my trip on a VIA Turbotrain in 1977. It was a memorable trip from Toronto nearly to Montreal, because the leading power car (in which I was riding) caught fire around Dorval Airport, and we transferred to an Alco hauled Rapido which was brought up on our right side (and we hadn't changed tracks).

Perhaps the mock-up for the movie was reversed for some reason associated with the filming.

Peter

[kenneo]

The can in the movie was not a real locomotive, and for what appears to be the same reason the, for a while, some pleasure boats had the helm port side, the engineer was to the left in the movie. The reason? Almost forgot! You drive cars that way, don't you?

For just grenade throwing reasons, here is something else where left is right and right is left. French locomotives have always been run with the controls on the left. I can't remember the movie's name, but it was made about 1950 or so about the saving of the French museum paintings. They used old - and I mean OLD in 1950, 10-wheelers, beautiful machines, for the movie and wrecked all but one in rear-enders or one head-on. The cab scenes were done by mounting a camera to the outside of a real locomotive and then having the actors operate the locomotive.

All German locomotives that I have been on are right hand. Single track with signals to the right. Signal bridges on most multiple track mains because of them being signaled both directions.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo


For just grenade throwing reasons, here is something else where left is right and right is left. French locomotives have always been run with the controls on the left. I can't remember the movie's name, but it was made about 1950 or so about the saving of the French museum paintings. They used old - and I mean OLD in 1950, 10-wheelers, beautiful machines, for the movie and wrecked all but one in rear-enders or one head-on. The cab scenes were done by mounting a camera to the outside of a real locomotive and then having the actors operate the locomotive.

The movie you're thinking of is "The Train" with Burt Lancaster, which was made in 1964. Lancaster actually learned how to operate a steam locomotive for the film. This is an excellent film and probably one of the best train movies ever made.

As for the engineer operating the locomotive from the left side in Silver Streak, I think I have an explanation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that CP (Amtrak refused to let them film on their trains, so they went to Canada) wouldn't let them use the right side for safety reasons. A real engineer was actually operating the locomotive on the right side while an actor sat on the left side.

[Anonymous]

Chicago And North Western always ran Left Handed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

hmmm...WELL, you sure could be right!

I had, now i should find, a Picture of the AMT'S (Ex-CP) F unit, The engineer is Clearly on the Left side. The F units were just put out of service within the last 2 years, but the engineer did sit on the Left side of the locomotive, to my recolection.

I can also somewhat recall some Cn and CP steam units that were lefties aswell, I'll have to speak to an old head who still works for CP, But i'm sure as eggs are eggs, some CP and possibly CN steam units were operated via the Left side.

Now if i recall corectly, and this may be a stretch, i believe the CPR EMD E unit that came to montreal was Left operation aswell.

The new Locomotives, the EMD 59 PHi Are BOTH sided operation, the engineer could sit in the Right or the Left side and operate the Train, although sit on the left side would be confusing and redundant.

[Anonymous]

And Yes, i hard that about CN&W too, that they were left handed operation.

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

It's another one of these which colour is the color things isn't it.
In the UK they run on the left, and any steam engine I've ever worked on has had the drivers controls on the left, and so do multiple units (Budd car type things) where there is an interconnecting gangway.
I was in the National Railway Museum last week and I am sure that The Rocket was driven from the left hand side as well.

In the UK indeed locomotives are driven from the left. There must have been some logic somewhere as to why in each country the left or right is favoured. Indeed an earlier argument states that loco's were running before signals were invented is also true. Surely it couldn't have been down to some happy accident.

Whilst loco's here are driven from the left the tracks tend (but not always) to favour left running. If there were two tracks in most normal scenarios the train would run on the left track. The signals would mostly be placed on the left barring sighting problems. We do have bi-directional tracks but as a rule the left side running seems to be the norm. Drive from the left on the left track with the signals to your left. But why it is like this is another matter.

I think Willy6 has asked a very interesting question that will have a number of people researching the answer.

Cheers

Rory[%-)]

[Anonymous]

I can guarantee some locomotives are driven from the Left in Canada too, or at least they were in the past.

However, all signals are on the right, at least the ones that matter to that track. Now Dwarf signals are easily missed when the engineer ison the left, because they are low and on the right.

[%-)]