why the right side?

[zardoz]

A lesson that Metra has not learned. On Metra's UP (then CNW) left-hand suburban operations, Metra got rid of the firemen, they experimented with various methods of improving the engineer's visibility on the platform (fireman's) side of the train. They tried closed-circuit cameras, huge mirrors, etc. They acknowledged that the person on the left side had a function, but were unwilling to spent the money for the salary.

Those methods worked well enough during the daylight and in clear weather, but at night or in inclement weather, these were nearly useless. And those methods were useless for seeing commuters walking around the front of the locomotive at station stops. There have been many incidents over the years due to the engineer having no visibility on the platform side. When the engineer receives the signal to proceed, he just rings the bell and hopes no one is in front.

Efficiency (read cheaper) yes; Safety? Absolutely not.

[Anonymous]

Let's complicate things further. N&W dieselized with dual control engines, to eliminate ever having to turn them. A few years later they bought some low-nosed engines - I believe they were GEs, with the controls on the left side. The theory was that if the engine was running long nose ahead, the engineer was on the proper side to see the signals. If the engine was running short nose ahead, it didn't matter which side he was sitting on. The crews, naturally, hated them; such a far-out concept was beyond their acceptance . . .

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by willy6

In America we drive the car/truck from the left side,pilots fly the plane from the left side, boats are operated from the right side, why was it decided that a locomotive engineer would operate from the right side?

A site to look at as to why different transport drives on certain sides of the road can be found at:-

http://www.travel-library.com/general/driving/drive_which_side.html

Its interesting but still doesn't fully explain why railways of the world do what they do.

I posted this topic onto uk-rail and like here it had quite a lot of explanations and opinions, yet that decisive answer still eludes us. An interesting point came from Steve Huddy on uk-rail.

Steve Huddy wrote on uk-rail
Quote - During the middle ages a pope had ruled that pilgrims should pass sword arm
to sword arm which meant they kept to the left and this became the norm over
most of Europe. Napoleon however marched his army on the right, to cause
confusion and as a result other road users in the affected parts of Europe
took to keeping right. North America had a wide variety of settlers other
the British, Louisiana for instance was originally a French colony, New
Brunswick was mainly German. As a result some states took to keeping left,
others to keeping right, a situation which wasn't resolved until Henry Ford
started mass producing the Model T when he decided to make them all left
hand drive and so made the US drive on the right.

The constructors of railways were influenced by which side was used in the
country that most influenced them in the design of their railway. There is
an oddity left to this day from this in that when the Prussians annexed
Alsace and Lorraine after the 1870 war they changed the railways there to
their right hand running but the French have never changed it back since
they regained that area. As much of the US network was single track
originally they could well have varied between companies/states before a
standard was established.
End quote

Reading all the answers I am not convinced there is a definitive point where a rail networks decided whether to go left or right. I think it was based on a number of loco's that had gone before (left/right drive) and a norm emerged when signalling and multi tracks appeared.

Cheers

Rory

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

hmmm...WELL, you sure could be right!

I had, now i should find, a Picture of the AMT'S (Ex-CP) F unit, The engineer is Clearly on the Left side. The F units were just put out of service within the last 2 years, but the engineer did sit on the Left side of the locomotive, to my recolection.

Actually, the lead unit from Silver Streak (CP 4070) was sold to AMT in 1982 and ran as AMT #1300 (perhaps that's even the one your picture's of). However, it should be mentioned that in the film the engineer is also seen on the right side earlier on in the movie. When the bad guy comes into the cab with a gun, the engineer then moves to the left side. I don't believe there's such thing as a locomotive that can be operated from both the right and left side.

My bad, i wasn't clear enough. The Blainville Run, which is somewhat of a terrifying run, Requires 2 Enginers because 4 eyes tends to be better then 2, Now one sits on the Left of the EMD59PHi and the other on the right, all the controls are in the center SO both can have quick access to them..

Now weather they were ALL desighned Like that, or the AMT put in a speacila orde, i have no clue, but the controls are dead center, and both engneers have equal chance at getting them

However, like i said, Left side means Engineers often miss Dwarf signals on that side.

But the locomotice can be run from the Left side.

Mitchell, I was thinking of Number 1302, Sitting in Hudson pictured on a nice and sunny day before it was about to take off.

But was #1300 in a movie? this i've never heard of! Please tell me more..

[M636C]

Mike,

I think that the best position for hand firing, and a pre-existing tradition from horse drawn vehicles is the best explanation why some British locomotives were still driven on the right until the 1920s.

I think that Canadian Diesels, in or out of movies are probably a red herring (red and white, in the case of CP). But I have seen a photo of one of the rare CP E units, and it hasn't a rear vision mirror on the right side.

Many, maybe most Australian roadswitchers had dual controls, but both were arranged to face the usual way on the right or left side, depending which system bought them.

I spent some time assembling locomotives at the English Electric factory in Rocklea, (south of Brisbane) Queensland. Queensland had controls on the right, so the controls on the right side faced forward and those on the left side faced backward. The cab doors were on the left front and right rear of the cab. To save money, they had one real control stand, and the other was a dummy, connected under the floor by bicycle chains (this was an EE special, Clyde-EMD units had two real control stands).

The problem for me was that we were also building units for Western Australia, who drove on the left and in their units, the controls faced forward on the left and backward on the right, and the cab doors were on the right front and left rear.

So sometimes you'd walk down the side of a unit and find that the door was on the other side. After a while, I realised that the green ones had one layout and the blue ones another, but I'd still get confused by the unpainted units.

Peter

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater
I don't believe there's such thing as a locomotive that can be operated from both the right and left side.

Many early roadswitchers (especially demos) had dual controls, so they could be run long or short hood forward, but with the engineer still on the right side.

For cabs, though, I'd tend to agree, although I wouldn't want to bet on it. There was probably an exception to that, somewhere, somehow.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

hmmm...WELL, you sure could be right!

I had, now i should find, a Picture of the AMT'S (Ex-CP) F unit, The engineer is Clearly on the Left side. The F units were just put out of service within the last 2 years, but the engineer did sit on the Left side of the locomotive, to my recolection.

Actually, the lead unit from Silver Streak (CP 4070) was sold to AMT in 1982 and ran as AMT #1300 (perhaps that's even the one your picture's of). However, it should be mentioned that in the film the engineer is also seen on the right side earlier on in the movie. When the bad guy comes into the cab with a gun, the engineer then moves to the left side. I don't believe there's such thing as a locomotive that can be operated from both the right and left side.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith
Is it also something to consider that carriages and wagons at the time were also right hand seated for the driver? This might have easily carried over to the now "steam carraiges", keeping with the tradition of the wagon drivers the engineers were mounted on the right side?

You beat me to the punch, Vsmith. The reason for the right side drive is pretty simple. Wagons and carriages are traditionally driven on the RIGHT side of the vehicle, no matter what country you're from (the USA included). The first steam engines were being made around the end of the eighteenth century, which is about the same time that pleasure driving (with carriages and pairs of horses) started taking off in Europe. The British perfected the style of carriage driving, which was codified as right side only (today, you'll be eliminated from the Olympics if you try to drive from the left). Since there was nothing else to compare a steam engine to BUT carriage driving, the right side stayed the driver's seat.

Carriages are driven from the right for the same reason we mount horses from the right here: it's tradition based on where we wear our swords. British roads are left side running because you have your sword arm nearest someone you're passing (which says something about the early culture of England), and this caried over to carriages, trains, and finally cars.

The first US steam engines came from England with right side drive. Early American steam engine manufacturers simply made knockoffs of the British engines, so the right side drive stayed. They too had nothing else but carriage driving to refer to, and America drives horses on the right, just like the mother country.

For some reason, there was a shift in the late nineteenth century to move all the traffic to the right side in the USA. Carriages were still driven from the right side of the vehilce (as were early cars), but they were driven on the right side of the road. Later, some American auto makers started putting the steering wheel on the left side of the vehicle, so drivers were still close to each other. By this time, carriages were fast becoming obsolete, so no one bothered to change the way they were driven. And trains were reaching the zenith of their numbers (miles of track and number of locos) so it was easier to keep things the way they were, rather than spending piles of ca***o try and "modernize".

I've always know where the right side drive came from, but I've never been able to figure out where the move to the right side of the road came from for roadway traffic...

[vsmith]

Also consider that when locomotives were first built, the engineer STOOD! the sitting cab didnt appear until about 1840 only then did the engineers postion on the right side become solidified. Is it also something to consider that carriages and wagons at the time were also right hand seated for the driver? This might have easily carried over to the now "steam carraiges", keeping with the tradition of the wagon drivers the engineers were mounted on the right side?

[rrnut282]

Here's a random thought on why most locomotives are "right-handed". Consider the poor fireman. In the days before power stokers, he had to load his scoop shovel walk a few steps on the pitching deck, stomp on the firedoor control to open up the firebox and throw the shovelful in. Now think about how you would do this. Naturally most of us would like to thow a loaded shovel standing to the left of the "target". So, to get the engineer out of the fireman's way, he was placed on the right side of the locomotive. I cannot prove this is the case, but it makes a certain amount of sense to me.[2c]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

I suspect that the cab interior we see in the film is a "Hollywood Special", needed to preserve the illusion between shots. Only the right side of the train's exterior is ever shown, and Patrick McGoohan enters from that side. Watch the film very closely, and you will find a lot of other things wrong.

[M636C]

Kevin,

Although I don't have any evidence about controls, I note that a lot of MLW builder's photos show the left side, and there are mirrors and sight screens on the left side of CN and CP units.

But as I said earlier, the few Canadian steam locomotives where I could see power reverse units all had them on the right. On locos like the Royal Hudson, you can't see because of the valances on the running boards.

Peter

[Anonymous]

I can guarantee some locomotives are driven from the Left in Canada too, or at least they were in the past.

However, all signals are on the right, at least the ones that matter to that track. Now Dwarf signals are easily missed when the engineer ison the left, because they are low and on the right.

[%-)]

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

It's another one of these which colour is the color things isn't it.
In the UK they run on the left, and any steam engine I've ever worked on has had the drivers controls on the left, and so do multiple units (Budd car type things) where there is an interconnecting gangway.
I was in the National Railway Museum last week and I am sure that The Rocket was driven from the left hand side as well.

In the UK indeed locomotives are driven from the left. There must have been some logic somewhere as to why in each country the left or right is favoured. Indeed an earlier argument states that loco's were running before signals were invented is also true. Surely it couldn't have been down to some happy accident.

Whilst loco's here are driven from the left the tracks tend (but not always) to favour left running. If there were two tracks in most normal scenarios the train would run on the left track. The signals would mostly be placed on the left barring sighting problems. We do have bi-directional tracks but as a rule the left side running seems to be the norm. Drive from the left on the left track with the signals to your left. But why it is like this is another matter.

I think Willy6 has asked a very interesting question that will have a number of people researching the answer.

Cheers

Rory[%-)]

[Anonymous]

And Yes, i hard that about CN&W too, that they were left handed operation.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

hmmm...WELL, you sure could be right!

I had, now i should find, a Picture of the AMT'S (Ex-CP) F unit, The engineer is Clearly on the Left side. The F units were just put out of service within the last 2 years, but the engineer did sit on the Left side of the locomotive, to my recolection.

I can also somewhat recall some Cn and CP steam units that were lefties aswell, I'll have to speak to an old head who still works for CP, But i'm sure as eggs are eggs, some CP and possibly CN steam units were operated via the Left side.

Now if i recall corectly, and this may be a stretch, i believe the CPR EMD E unit that came to montreal was Left operation aswell.

The new Locomotives, the EMD 59 PHi Are BOTH sided operation, the engineer could sit in the Right or the Left side and operate the Train, although sit on the left side would be confusing and redundant.

[Anonymous]

Chicago And North Western always ran Left Handed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo


For just grenade throwing reasons, here is something else where left is right and right is left. French locomotives have always been run with the controls on the left. I can't remember the movie's name, but it was made about 1950 or so about the saving of the French museum paintings. They used old - and I mean OLD in 1950, 10-wheelers, beautiful machines, for the movie and wrecked all but one in rear-enders or one head-on. The cab scenes were done by mounting a camera to the outside of a real locomotive and then having the actors operate the locomotive.

The movie you're thinking of is "The Train" with Burt Lancaster, which was made in 1964. Lancaster actually learned how to operate a steam locomotive for the film. This is an excellent film and probably one of the best train movies ever made.

As for the engineer operating the locomotive from the left side in Silver Streak, I think I have an explanation. I seem to recall reading somewhere that CP (Amtrak refused to let them film on their trains, so they went to Canada) wouldn't let them use the right side for safety reasons. A real engineer was actually operating the locomotive on the right side while an actor sat on the left side.

[kenneo]

The can in the movie was not a real locomotive, and for what appears to be the same reason the, for a while, some pleasure boats had the helm port side, the engineer was to the left in the movie. The reason? Almost forgot! You drive cars that way, don't you?

For just grenade throwing reasons, here is something else where left is right and right is left. French locomotives have always been run with the controls on the left. I can't remember the movie's name, but it was made about 1950 or so about the saving of the French museum paintings. They used old - and I mean OLD in 1950, 10-wheelers, beautiful machines, for the movie and wrecked all but one in rear-enders or one head-on. The cab scenes were done by mounting a camera to the outside of a real locomotive and then having the actors operate the locomotive.

All German locomotives that I have been on are right hand. Single track with signals to the right. Signal bridges on most multiple track mains because of them being signaled both directions.

[M636C]

Guys,

At the risk of confusing people further, I thought I'd check to see which side Canadian steam locomotives were driven. The answer appears to be on the right side, at least that is where the power reverse units were.

Canadian diesels all seem to have rear vision mirrors on the left side, but that doesn't prove anything.

However, I think Canadian railroads run on the left hand track where they have double track, or at least that's my recollection of my trip on a VIA Turbotrain in 1977. It was a memorable trip from Toronto nearly to Montreal, because the leading power car (in which I was riding) caught fire around Dorval Airport, and we transferred to an Alco hauled Rapido which was brought up on our right side (and we hadn't changed tracks).

Perhaps the mock-up for the movie was reversed for some reason associated with the filming.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

I agree with you Mark, however, if you have an opportunity check out this movie!

The scene with the engineer driving the F unit on the left side is where the "bad guy" hijacks the locomotive and orders the engineer to keep his foot on the "deadman peddle". It is a CP unit painted in the red with white stripes scheme.

[Anonymous]

CPR and CN locomotives are all (AFAIK) standard North American right-hand operation. I have never seen an exception, and if there is one, I would be astonished were if anything more than one or two.

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Guys!

Maybe this question is a "little ringer".

Most of you likely saw the 1970s version of the hit movie "The Silver Streak" with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.

Did any of you notice that the engineer is driving the EMD F unit, from the LEFT SIDE? You could see the control stand also. I wondered about this as of course the so called "AMROAD" train is actually a CANADIAN PACIFIC passenger train. Unless I'm mistaken, as far as I've seen CP and CN units are operated from the right side.

Any thoughts on this??

[M636C]

macguy,

I'm trying to help find an answer!

But you won't find the right answer by assuming that "all British locomotives were left hand drive" which is clearly not correct.

The reason British locomotives changed over (those that needed to), was for better sighting of signals, on the left in Britain. This was the same reason for the change in Australia. This was not a consideration in the USA, since right hand drive was already the correct side.

But the fact that locomotives were built in England with right hand drive until the mid 1920s means something, even if it was just following a tradition that existed at that time.

I'm sorry if the previous post seemed confusing, but the point was relatively clear to me, even if I hadn't expressed it well.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
I thought I might check my facts on Australian steam locomotives, and I find that the NSW Vulcan Foundry "H" class 4-4-0 of 1887 was right hand drive, but the 1892 Beyer Peacock "P" class 4-6-0 of 1892 was built as left hand drive. This was a bit earlier than I had indicated. Baldwin locomotives purchased about this time for use in NSW were right hand drive, however.
As to British locomotives, the side may have varied from one railway to another, but the London and North Eastern Railway class A1, including the well known 4472 "Flying Scotsman" were initially built as right hand drive. So were the other LNER contemporary "pacific" type locomotives, the class A2 designed by Sir Vincent Raven, suggesting that both the Great Northern and North Eastern railways used right hand drive at the time of the grouping in 1923.
It appears that the later Gresley locomotives of class A3, with higher pressure boilers, were built with left hand drive from about 1928. However, some locomotives built with right hand drive retained this feature until at least 1951, following nationalization of British Railways, even if they had been rebuilt with the higher pressure boilers. "Flying Scotsman" had been rebuilt before its withdrawal for preservation, and had left hand drive during its visit to the USA.

Are you trying to help us find the answer, or confuse us more?? [8)][?][?][:D]

[M636C]

Guys,

I thought I might check my facts on Australian steam locomotives, and I find that the NSW Vulcan Foundry "H" class 4-4-0 of 1887 was right hand drive, but the 1892 Beyer Peacock "P" class 4-6-0 of 1892 was built as left hand drive. This was a bit earlier than I had indicated. Baldwin locomotives purchased about this time for use in NSW were right hand drive, however.

As to British locomotives, the side may have varied from one railway to another, but the London and North Eastern Railway class A1, including the well known 4472 "Flying Scotsman" were initially built as right hand drive. So were the other LNER contemporary "pacific" type locomotives, the class A2 designed by Sir Vincent Raven, suggesting that both the Great Northern and North Eastern railways used right hand drive at the time of the grouping in 1923.

It appears that the later Gresley locomotives of class A3, with higher pressure boilers, were built with left hand drive from about 1928. However, some locomotives built with right hand drive retained this feature until at least 1951, following nationalization of British Railways, even if they had been rebuilt with the higher pressure boilers. "Flying Scotsman" had been rebuilt before its withdrawal for preservation, and had left hand drive during its visit to the USA.

Peter

[Noah Hofrichter]

I wonder if It might have to do with the engineer being on the oppisite side of the cab when trains pass for some sort of saftey reason[?][?] I don't know for sure, its just a guess.

Noah

[Anonymous]

Hugh: As did some American locomotives. As near as I can tell, the John Bull was left-hand operated.

Next week, I'll see if I can get one of the experts to answer this. Now I'm curious, too!

[Hugh Jampton]

It's another one of these which colour is the color things isn't it.
In the UK they run on the left, and any steam engine I've ever worked on has had the drivers controls on the left, and so do multiple units (Budd car type things) where there is an interconnecting gangway.
I was in the National Railway Museum last week and I am sure that The Rocket was driven from the left hand side as well.