Heads up to anyone railfanning the CN...

[AlcoRS11Nut]

If I can comment on the original topic - I've seen all kinds of "No Tresspassing" signs go up on CN property in my part of the world (N.E. Wisconsin.) 

Kind of sad when compared to the relatively "railfan friendly" attitude of prior owner WC.

Although - the Green Bay and Western had a long time policy of very little tolerance for railfan poking around - though, if I recall, that resulted from some folks who grossly overstepped their bounds and ruined for the rest of us.

 

Thats the first thing I noticed first time I went to  Fondy after the take over. Yeah...like normal...its the stupidy of the few that ruins it for the rest of us.

[AlcoRS11Nut]

CN isn't being unreasonable...we don't have to be that close anyway to enjoy the action.

Agreed.

I'm not sure why some people are so outraged by the fact that CN is cracking down on trespassers. It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

In addition, the people who have hijacked this thread and turned it into the typical political battle should be ashamed. I highly doubt that CopCar intended for this to happen with this thread.

All it seems like  CopCarSS was doing is to give everyone a heads up/friendly reminder with the matter.

 

 I agree 100%, a good chunk of the shots are good from a distance and would be lacking in other "stuff" if it was locomotive only, but sometimes getting a close-up shot of locomotive blasting around a curve or out of a tunnel is impressive too. For what its worth, I think it kind of depends on the area and each railroaders idea of "too close" is. I know I have been INVITED into the yard in my town once or twice to take pictures by the crew on duty but thats a UP yard (old CNW) not CN.  I don't know about any one else here, but I kind of can sense when I might be getting a little to close and then I back up a little. Maybe the people who do get to close have to listen to that sense of theirs, and all of use dust off our telescopic lenses.

 

 

Not sure who said it, but to whomever did...Yes, it does seem like threads seem to always get policital. 

 

 

[RRKen]

Said I was done, but time for another quick question? 

In cities where railroads go through part of the town, do the railroads ever own the property that a business sits on?  ie  - the business owns the building, but the railroad owns the property? 

(especially ones that sit very close to the tracks?)

That depends upon the situation.   Yes and no.   Some sidings are the carriers property, but of late they have gotten away from owning the siding.  In looking at some historical maps of the CNW from the mid-30's, most if not all the sidings were owned by the RR.   Spots in a siding were leased by companies such as Standard Oil, Blue Earth Co-Op Elevator, or  American Chrystal Sugar.   

 When CNW needed to raise revenue, they began to convert the leases to sales.   As an added revenue stream, they contracted to maintain those sidings for the customers.   Those customers who did not want to purchase the siding, and did not offer many carloadings, were scrapped (more revenue for CNW).  

Currently, all new sidings for customers are owned by them, up to the derail, or 100' from the switch.   UP sets the standards for said sidings, and if they are not met, UP will not put in the switch.    

I am thinking of one business that is on UP property today, there are not a lot of them left however.  Those that could be converted from company property leased to private, have done so long ago, unless they had a very long lease.  

  I can think of several instances of late, where CNW sold the property and tracks off, only for UP to buy it back and install new tracks.   One such case is where the land repurchased  became a main line bypassing our yard with a siding.   They are currently building two  more 5000 foot tracks along side same.      

[zugmann]

A crew does NOT have the authority to invite you on the property. And any crew doing so must not need their job that bad since it can easily lead to discipline. Esp. when you have railfans that do not have a lick of sense that will post the photos and all pertinent information about the "visit" to one of the more popular sites.

[AlcoRS11Nut]

A crew does NOT have the authority to invite you on the property. And any crew doing so must not need their job that bad since it can easily lead to discipline. Esp. when you have railfans that do not have a lick of sense that will post the photos and all pertinent information about the "visit" to one of the more popular sites.

 

even if they cleared it with their super in advance? 

[CShaveRR]

Something to think about.

I have a friend who's coming to visit us in a couple of weeks.  He, like I, is into freight car research and history.  For that, we often need to get information in the very tiny lettering stencilled on the cars.  So you'd think we'd be putting ourselves into the danger zone, or risk running afoul of this when we visit the CN crossing of Broadway at Blue Island.

But he wrote me recently to say that his best research is done when he's no closer than 100 feet to the cars, and all he needs is a 200-foot range of vision from that 100-foot distance.  I think we can do that at Blue Island without running afoul of CN.  Unless they detain us for the direction in which our cameras or binoculars are pointed, which is a whole other subject.

Our intent is to upset nobody.  As a railroader, I wish that were everyone's intent when watching us.

[Anonymous]

CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.

You all have it totally wrong.  CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen.  The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start.  Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property.  Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home.  They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours.  Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.

[Anonymous]

CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.

You all have it totally wrong.  CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen.  The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start.  Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property.  Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home.  They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours.  Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.

The libertarians on the forum should have fun chewin' on that...

[Andrew Falconer]

If the Railroads do not like seeing people hanging near their property, then they could have solved the problem decades ago by taking and selling quality photographs of their equipment for a reasonable price. $15 per photo is not a reasonable price.  $0.50 per photo is more like it.

Andrew

[solzrules]

CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.

You all have it totally wrong.  CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen.  The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start.  Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property.  Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home.  They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours.  Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.

Yes!  Finally a little humor!

Simple solution again - take pictures of trains from public property and CN can put up all the signs and fences they want.  If you're not trespassing there isn't anything they can do. 

Everything else I've read on this thread is a whole lot of hot air.  The RR has every right to keep you off their property, whether it is because of Fox news or the libertarians.

[Anonymous]

Everything else I've read on this thread is a whole lot of hot air.

And you're doing your part to add to global warming too eh Solzy?? 

 

[Soo 6604]

CN must be serious about this, because I went by Homewood Yard today and they have built a huge 7 foot high chain-link fence around almost the entire yard.

You all have it totally wrong.  CN management is using the trespassing issue as a smokescreen.  The 7-foot chain link fence at Homewood is just the start.  Soon, CN will have a chain link fence around their entire North American property.  Once that is done, the employees will no longer be able to go home.  They will effectively be "in jail" at CN Rail and with no way to get out, will work longer hours.  Efficiencies at CN will then return to the levels preferred by managmentment.

Yes!  Finally a little humor!

Simple solution again - take pictures of trains from public property and CN can put up all the signs and fences they want.  If you're not trespassing there isn't anything they can do. 

Everything else I've read on this thread is a whole lot of hot air.  The RR has every right to keep you off their property, whether it is because of Fox news or the libertarians.

At least with FOX News, you would get a balanced view of the situation, not just a biased, sugar coated railfan point of view. Not to mention, the reporting could be from one of the nice looking blondes that they have there like Martha or Dhue,,,,mmmmmmm

[Phoebe Vet]

"At least with FOX News, you would get a balanced view of the situation"?

Now THAT is humor......

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

"At least with FOX News, you would get a balanced view of the situation"?

Now THAT is humor......

Could you imagine the condition of the track if FOX News(?) was responsible for balancing a steam locomotive?

[TimChgo9]

Going back to the original topic - I have a question from The Driver:  You can go to Rochelle, cross the tracks at will, stand right next to the tracks, and, having been there, watch the BNSF go through there at a fairly high rate of speed. 

No one patrols there.  No one makes you get back 100 feet.  No one even seems to be all that interested in what is going on except the devoted rail fans. 

So this is different from our watching on private property within the 100 foot requirement, how?

Don't need an argument, just a polite explanation. 

Mook

 

Jen, there may not be a legitimate answer to your question, except that some employees in the other places are being "pro-active" (don't particularly like the term, but can't think of a better one).

There have been many times when I've been to Rochelle and have seen action that makes me cringe.  If it doesn't make other railroaders (i.e., the ones who are on duty and passing through there) cringe as well, I'd be surprised.

Since you and Ed last visited Rochelle, some rules and appropriate signage have been prominently posted, prohibiting children from going too close to the tracks.  I've not seen anything enforced by anyone except parents so far, but one of these times a child in an adult body is going to either come to grief himself or will cause somebody else a bit of grief (or maybe just an upsetting, scary moment).  If that happens, you may see the railroad's police descend upon the place from time to time, protecting the interests of their respective companies.

Carl, that would only make sense.  All it takes is one idiot to spoil it for everyone. I don't get why threads related to this subject get so out of hand.  I understand their right to protect their property, and maybe it's aggravating from time to time if as a photographer, I can't have access anymore to a favorite photo spot because the railroad fenced it off.  It's their perogative though.  There is even some talk around here of a ticket and a hefty fine if you are caught merely crossing the tracks anywhere other than the pedestrian tunnel, or the two railroad crossings.  Right now it's 500 bucks if you play "beat the train" and get caught, I heard rumor they are considering that fine for just crossing the tracks where you aren't supposed to. Even though there is the tunnel, people still walk across the tracks, as opposed to walking a block or so, and utilizing the pedestrian underpass. 

[eolafan]

Does anyone else get tired when these so-called libertarians throw these mind-numbing quotes around?

Enough already! 

I am not surprised that those simple quotes numbed your mind...I would imagine that happens quite often to you.

My what a witty retort! 

I bet you stayed up all night thinking up this didn't you?

 

At least this "super genius" payed attention in English Composition 101, so much so that I know that the correct sentence structure would be "I'll bet you stayed up all night thinking this up, didn't you?".

Let's agree right now to a cessation of hostilities before this thread gets really nasty, and believe me when I say it truly can degrade very quickly and none of us want that.  Remember the old saying that reads something like "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"...well Harry I suggest you stop throwing "stones" so none come back over the fence at you in the future.

Harry, it became my business when you went directly after me above after I expressed my support of Zardoz.  I will now leave this thread entirely, but before I do may I suggest that, in the future, you don't start something unless you are prepared to finish it on this (or any other) forum.

[Phoebe Vet]

Guys:

Since it was apparently my first post that spun us off topic into this argument, please let me clarify my position.

I absolutely respect the railroad's, any railroad, property rights, and their right to control who enters their property.  I do not believe that you need to be on their property to get professional quality photos of their equipment.

My complaint was that increasingly in our paranoid society the act of taking photos or video by an individual is considered suspicious activity even as the same conduct by government and security agencies is increasing.  It was not intended to be a complaint about the railroad's policy.

[CNW 6000]

CN is free to protects it's private property.  So go away if you don't like it.   Maybe a hobby like collecting toenail clippings would be less stressful  for you?

People are free to take pictures of publicly visible things like trains from a public place.  I will continue to do this as long as I'm interested and able.  Quit your job if you don't like your picture being taken.  Maybe a job like clipping toenails would be less stressful for you.

[trainboyH16-44]

I did a count...

Of 120 of my photos on railpics.net, about half of them were taken while on railroad property (although not neccesarily trespassing)

If I could never trespass, I could sill get some great shots - Just not as many, and I'd get even more bored of the same power in the same places.

Oh, and did I mention that I usually jaywalk when crossing roads?  

[selector]

Hi, everone.  I thought I'd stick my head in here and offer this (not a comment on the vituperation earlier): 

Consider that adversity makes us respond in ways that take us in new directions.  We have changed as a society since folks realized they could dig their own "springs" to get reliable sources of water. 

This fencing is pretty small stuff in the greater picture.........don't y'all think?  I live just across the road from Canadian Forces Base Comox, with its 10,000' runway.  The Base just finished replacing a 30+ year old 7' fence with a new 8' one, and they erected the latter nearly a full meter back away from their 'frontage'...they seem to have ceded some turf for the public's benefit.  My dog's at least.

About the only thing that would change the topic substantially is that the notion of "property" and "property rights" would have to be altered considerably from what we make of it these days.  That means our current laws would have to change.  As things stand, CN, and any other property owner, can do what they want with their property that is not expressly proscribed under the Law or local authority that pertains.  So, in adversity, railfans will find other ways to take their advantage.  They may even have less trouble with interference and will find fewer interactions and hassles, including unwelcome challenges by police.  Maybe.

[nanaimo73]

It is a good thing there were no trespassing railfans at the Tama Iowa tower on February 2 1978.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=407233

[Mookie]

Hi, everone.  I thought I'd stick my head in here and offer this (not a comment on the vituperation earlier): 

Consider that adversity makes us respond in ways that take us in new directions.  We have changed as a society since folks realized they could dig their own "springs" to get reliable sources of water. 

This fencing is pretty small stuff in the greater picture.........don't y'all think?  I live just across the road from Canadian Forces Base Comox, with its 10,000' runway.  The Base just finished replacing a 30+ year old 7' fence with a new 8' one, and they erected the latter nearly a full meter back away from their 'frontage'...they seem to have ceded some turf for the public's benefit.  My dog's at least.

About the only thing that would change the topic substantially is that the notion of "property" and "property rights" would have to be altered considerably from what we make of it these days.  That means our current laws would have to change.  As things stand, CN, and any other property owner, can do what they want with their property that is not expressly proscribed under the Law or local authority that pertains.  So, in adversity, railfans will find other ways to take their advantage.  They may even have less trouble with interference and will find fewer interactions and hassles, including unwelcome challenges by police.  Maybe.

Since BNSF runs right through our fair city, the only possible way to get to see trains is to sit at a crossing and wait.  Every available avenue has private property next to the rails.  So now I need to get very creative and find a way to be able to watch any trains. 

And I don't even take pictures, nor do I get out of the car, except to put some feeling back in my backside. 

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't head to a small town and watch the UP from a county road.  They don't seem to mind so far.

[rrnut282]

Said I was done, but time for another quick question? 

In cities where railroads go through part of the town, do the railroads ever own the property that a business sits on?  ie  - the business owns the building, but the railroad owns the property? 

(especially ones that sit very close to the tracks?)

Yes, it can happen.  Especially around yards that may have "downsized" in years past, or tracks have been re-aligned.  The railroad wants to cover some of the property tax they have to pay and lease a parcel to another business. 

As an example, the favorite train watching location in Fort Wayne (the perch) is located at the east end of the yard where two mainlines cross.  The perch is the parking lot of a concrete plant that abuts the busier mainline.  The whole property is owned by Norfolk Southern.  I know this because a few years ago when NS re-aligned the interlocking to make a gentler curve, I walked into the office of the concrete plant and watched as the manager was handed a notice that the railroad was revising the lease and taking a part of that parking lot without compensation.  (As part of the restoration, I supervised the repair of said lot to a usable condition).  This property was fenced and for all the world looks like a separate (private) property when it is not.

Bottom line, unless you've spent hours in the county courthouse researching property records (like I have), you can't be sure.  Just tell the officer doing his job you meant no harm and move to a different (hopefully safer, public) spot.  (unless he confiscates my camera, but that is another subject.)

[selector]

Since BNSF runs right through our fair city, the only possible way to get to see trains is to sit at a crossing and wait.  Every available avenue has private property next to the rails.  So now I need to get very creative and find a way to be able to watch any trains. 

... 

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't head to a small town and watch the UP from a county road.  They don't seem to mind so far.

Well, if it can be the slightest consolation to you Mookie, my other hobby (used to be) Astronomy.  At one time I was very active and would put the kids in bed, lug out my rather large and heavy light bucket to the car, horse it into the back, and then commence a 40 minute drive out to the south or east of Winnipeg so that I could see what interested me at the time....a non-light-polluted sky.  It was a de facto requirement, and is that much more so for star-gazers who have to "put up with" the effects of social encroachment on the sky because of what happens on the ground.  It is no different here in this discussion; society is mutable, and as it changes around more rigid artefacts (like 150 year-old corporations), we should expect the corporations to adapt in ways they think best.

I agree that the changes are apparently lamentable.  Our night sky presents the same stars, but we can't see them unless we adapt in some way.  It works the same out there near the right of way because of "human activity".

-Crandell

[zardoz]

I highly doubt that CopCar intended for this to happen with this thread.

Indeed not. I merely wanted to bring the crack-down to light because I know that .  I've inadvertantly wandered onto RR property before while composing shots. I just wanted everyone to realize that CN had instituted a zero tolerance policy and that they should fully be aware of where they are railfanning as there appears that there will be no exceptions in the future on the CN. My post was in no way meant to convey a feeling of "right to be on the property," but rather serve as a warning to all railfans.

At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum.

The reason I made my first post in this thread is that some people seem to accept without question whatever the media and the government choose to tell them.  Hence we have "Homeland Security", meaningless hassles at airports, cameras on every street corner, REAL ID cards (coming soon to a DMV near you), and most of all (relating to this forum) wannabe Barney Fife's detaining and questioning people who are doing nothing more sinister than taking photos of trains, buildings, etc.

Perhaps I should have not involved myself with this subject.  I feel too strongly about the freedoms we are losing, including those we have already lost.  And I now realize that any posting regarding anything other than watching choo-choo's go by is asking to be accused of a variety of politcal beliefs and/or agendas.  I will in the future try to Keep It Simple. 

I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.

[Phoebe Vet]

Zardoz:

Me too.

[Mookie]

Selector, et al - the irony of this whole thing is that our fair city is wanting to build an arena and a hotel - and they want to do it right where the main line of the BNSF runs right now.  The railroad would have to move several tracks to accomodate this. 

I can't begin to tell you the nightmare I foresee if this happens.  They are wringing their hands over an old couple watching them now, they will really be upset when masses of people are milling around the area of this project - fences notwithstanding.....

Mook

[Anonymous]

The BNSF has agreed to relocate a few tracks for the construction of the new Twins ballpark in Minneapolis.  I don't know how accessible the BNSF tracks will be from the stadium, but I guarantee there'll be a heck of a fence.

[Anonymous]

Zardoz:

Me too.

Your "Gestapo" comment is what set me off.  Do you truly understand what is implied by that comparison?  Even if you don't like the new restrictions, that's no reason to compare US law enforcement, homeland security, or railroad police to Hitler's genocidal henchmen.  That was a totally outrageous statement.

[CopCarSS]

At any rate, Willy, once again you've proved that despite your youth, you are in fact more mature than many participants in this forum.

The reason I made my first post in this thread is that some people seem to accept without question whatever the media and the government choose to tell them.  Hence we have "Homeland Security", meaningless hassles at airports, cameras on every street corner, REAL ID cards (coming soon to a DMV near you), and most of all (relating to this forum) wannabe Barney Fife's detaining and questioning people who are doing nothing more sinister than taking photos of trains, buildings, etc.

Perhaps I should have not involved myself with this subject.  I feel too strongly about the freedoms we are losing, including those we have already lost.  And I now realize that any posting regarding anything other than watching choo-choo's go by is asking to be accused of a variety of politcal beliefs and/or agendas.  I will in the future try to Keep It Simple. 

I'm sorry if I made anyone's brain hurt.

Jost for the record, Z, my comment wasn't directed at you.