Need Advice in saving OKC's Union Station from destruction

[Anonymous]

Hopefully I'm in the right forum to post this question.

OKC's Union Station is on the National Register of Historical Places #78002884 but the Oklahoma Department of Transportation somehow has permission to destroy 2/3 of the station just as long as the building remains.

Can anybody provide advice on appealing something of this nature? Does anybody know how to get outside media involved in saving this station? Oklahoma City is so pro-destruction of this station that I'm looking at outside media outlets.

The Norman City Council almost passed a resolution to get the governor of Oklahoma invovled but they want to view the station first. Believe it or not, some of them didn't know that it existed. Neither did I for that matter but once I found it, I'm attempting to make it useful once again and/or save it from destruction.

Can anybody out there assist me regarding this?

Regards,
Rich

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RichardR369

Hopefully I'm in the right forum to post this question.

OKC's Union Station is on the National Register of Historical Places #78002884 but the Oklahoma Department of Transportation somehow has permission to destroy 2/3 of the station just as long as the building remains.

Can anybody provide advice on appealing something of this nature? Does anybody know how to get outside media involved in saving this station? Oklahoma City is so pro-destruction of this station that I'm looking at outside media outlets.

The Norman City Council almost passed a resolution to get the governor of Oklahoma invovled but they want to view the station first. Believe it or not, some of them didn't know that it existed. Neither did I for that matter but once I found it, I'm attempting to make it useful once again and/or save it from destruction.

Can anybody out there assist me regarding this?

Regards,
Rich

When you say "destroy 2/3 of the station just as long as the building remains.", What exactly are they tearing down? The passenger concourses up by the tracks? The balloon tracks into the concourses? Other things?

If the first two, all I can say is "rotsa ruck"...in almost all of the "station savings" I've seen first hand, unless they serve some commercial purpose (commuter, freight, etc) they are the first to go, because they want to re-deploy the land use to something that will serve a purpose

[Anonymous]

There are the underground tunnels that connect Union Station to the passenger loading platforms that will be destroyed for the new highway.

There's an effort in OKC to save those tunnels and the tracks above them to use them for light rail when House Respresentative Istook understands that there's a need for light rail in Oklahoma City.

[tree68]

Having spent a couple of years in my pre-railfan days in OKC, this piqued my interest, so I did a quick search and gleaned the following:

ODOT is proposing to relocate the I-40 corridor through OKC. Their plan calls for removal of all but one track of the OKC Union Station yard, which, of course, makes it not quite as valuable as a rail resource. The head building will remain. Sounds like quite the place.

There appears to be substantial controversy as to whether the entire highway construction project is really necessary, OKCUS concerns or not, and I saw several references to "special interests". That, of course, means that somebody stands to make some money off this project. There was also question of whether the money really existed to carry out the project as planned.

When one ODOT official was queried as to whether the concerns raised by a knowledgeable retired expert, he indicated that there was substantial pressure to move the project forward. ODOT is apparently being quite agressive about acquiring other properties necessary for the project.

Sounds like a boondoggle to me. A few railfans aren't going to make a difference - the citizenry of Oklahoma are going to have to be heard.

I think I got it all right. Do a net search on "OKC Union Station" and read for yourself.

[Anonymous]

But at least I've contacted the right people to get me pointed in the right direction.

I thank you for your help.

Regards,
Rich

[Anonymous]

Actually there's a movement that 's trying to save the station by involving an outside city and here's a couple of news stories links. I guess I should've included them in my previous reply.

http://www.normantranscript.com/story.php?story_id=6396&c=1
http://newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=1176276&TP=getarticle

Regards,
Rich

[Anonymous]

WELL I'M GLAD YOUR TRYING SAVE THE STATION AND I WOULD RECOMEND TALK TO THE OWNER

[Anonymous]

The owner is Oklahoma City and they're interested in tearing it down.

[Anonymous]

Obsolete passenger tunnels vs Highways and a government entity wants the highways? You haven't got a prayer

[Anonymous]

Most of you haven' t seen the art deco of Oklahoma City's Union Station. Its in the SE area of downtown, near the new developments of the Brickyard area...Brick mind you.... While the buiding is s wonderful marble, the bulk of the tunnel and the elevated part is concrete....

The railroad tracks, 2 or 2 of them are elevated, running north and south, therefore the need for the steps down to the station and the tunnel, all ugly concrete mind you.... The benches are wooden bus stop benches with their advertising....And the concrete has cracks and ain't seen a drop of paint ever....

Oklahoma City would be wise to build a brand new small BEAUTIFUL depot. Somewhere and something else would be better than saving this concrete and marble elephant..... Today the elevated part eats up 2 blocks, and separates downtown from the new Brickyard developments..... Might be the reason why they want to tear it down......

I have a picture of it. It is ugly....in my opinion... and today does not match the architecture of the surrounding new Brickyard developements.....

This would be a wonderful depot in Clovis, NM, but its really not OKC....

[overall]

I have seen two stations saved by making them into hotels, however since this one is still an active train station, I'm not sure such a thing woud be feasible in this case.
Keep trying
George

[tree68]

I'm not really sure which I'd prefer - some elevated track or an elevated expressway....

Not having seen site plans, I don't know how the planned expressway will interface with the rest of the area. If they are planning on an updated version of the old I-40 I knew, I think I rather have the rails...

Update - just looked at the map of OKC - If they are going to do what I think they are going to do, they will just replace some elevated track with six lanes of noisy, smelly vehicles. It will actually be more disruptive of any development in the area than the rails could ever hope to be.

The elevated track was built to separate rail from road traffic. Taking out the elevated rail will put trains on grade crossings, which should make all of the drivers real happy. Of course, it will be the railroads fault for tying up traffic....

[Anonymous]

There are 2 depots in Oklahoma City. One is the Sante Fe depot which is elevated and has 2 tracks going north and south.

The other is Union Station built by Rock Island and opened in 1931 and tracks serving the entire state of Oklahoma.

The Union Station is a much better choice because it's built to be a multimodal transportation center effective even today. It can handle handicap patrons as well where as the Santa Fe Depot cannot.

[Anonymous]

Santa Fe depot is currently in use serving the Amtrak's Heartland Flyer.

The current ODOT plan is to destroy all tracks and tunnels and replace it with one track. They think that'll suffice for Oklahoma's future rail needs.

The reason why Norman is considering getting the governor involved is because lots of people know that the highway deal is a sham.

Do I have a prayer? I think so. Submit enough proof and facts to enough people and they'll stop this from happening. Not enough people are educated yet about the true nature of this highway move.

[daveklepper]

1. You are seeing photos of the Union Station after years of neglect. I think the architecture could be quite beautiful if the right cleaning up and colors were used properly. 2. I think religious organizations are an untapped resource to promote use of public transit of all types, definitely including trains and light rail, and to discourage more highway sprawl . In the Bible, the Eternal commands to preserve health and to preserve nature. Highway sprawl is against both and use of public transit is for both . You might find some real friends when you point out the connection to clergy.
Also, religious people in general are more interested in preservation of past history, which is one way we can show honor to our parents, one of the Ten Dave

[Anonymous]

The one I posted pictures of is the Santa Fe depot, I am not familiar with the other. However, the Santa Fe depot is small, the marbled room is probably around 60 square feet.... I could be wrong but not by much.... And yes Amtrak's Heartland Flyer uses this depot... As I said this depot would be nice for Clovis, New Mexico, but it is not what I consider nice for OKC....

Could someone post pictures of the other station?

[rrnut282]

ODOT's website has an aerial photo of the area, but it's too small to make out any detail. Do you have a better source of information on what they are planning?

[Anonymous]

There are 2 different depots. The pictures previous to this posting is of the Santa Fe Depot which will never fill Oklahoma's future transportation needs.

I'm trying to figure out how to attach pictures in this and having problems. I will post them to the http://SaveUnionStation.org website here soon.

[ironhorseman]

That's sad they want to demolish any part of that station. I've seen both the Santa Fe and the Union Station depots in OKC last April 2003 and have pictures of both. Union Station has the Spanish-Southwest architecture. As I remember it's a central building, 2 or 3 floors high, and it has exterior wings, east and west, that partially wrap around giving it that inner-garden look that many Spanish style houses and buildings poscess. Last time I was there I think it was being used by the Cable TV. I just can't picture how they're going to stick a highway through there. I thought those rails behind it were in use. I saw the platforms and there's not much left, just some rotted wooden support columns and the concrete platform. The wholes in it let you look down and see the tunnels that took people from the platform to the station.

I don't know how to save a station that small. Kansas City saved their station with a bi-state tax increase for the renovation and Science City attraction that went in there. Now KC-US is about to go bust. They're not making enough money to pay the bills. I went through Science City once, it's all kids stuff, a giant playground. If they had done their science exhibits like Exploration Place in Wichita they might have had a lot more business. I'd take a school group to Exploration Place but not Science City. It's really a kid's amuesment park.

And because no one's coming to Union Station the restaurants, theaters, and gift shops are having a hard time. It's amazing how they restored it to near mint condition the way it looked in 1914 when it was new, but it just doesn't make money.

But take a look at the depot in Guthrie, OK. They've turned it into a restaurant. Maybe if the OKC station were used like that it might have a chance of surviving.

Someday all the stations will be gone and everyone's either gonna wonder why didn't we save them or they're not gonna notice even care.

[Anonymous]

I got a response from the Oklahoma Historical Society only stating that the historical tunnels feel outside the boundaries for the National Register and wouldn't give me any information how they concluded that the tunnels weren't part of the depot.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how this can be appealed?

[Anonymous]

For those interested, I posted pictures to http://SaveUnionStation.org and you will notice that they're different than the others.

I cannot seem to post pictures because of my Mac.

[Anonymous]

I live in OKC and I am going to protest to this . Don't know if they will listen to a 12 year old though.

[Anonymous]

We need everybody to call the governor's office to stop this madness. You can get details on http://SaveUnionStation.org

[Anonymous]

I live in the OKC Metro area and I am protesting this! This kinda of B.S. has gone to far with ODOT I'm tired of them not listening to the citizen's! I've emailed them twice and all I get is a reply reffering to Amtrak not the future of Light Rail! This is a beautiful station and has a huge rail yard! This should be the future of OKC's Transportation not a Amtrak train! We have a station for that!!Please we need everybody to call the governor's office to stop this madness. http://saveunionstation.org/

GEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

[Anonymous]

this was all fine and good till you guys decided to post this idiotic piece on your site.

6: ODOT claims that the I-40 crosstown is crumbling. (Why does ODOT continue to let maximum weight trucks pass through at will?)

why the attack on trucks? where the heck else are trucks supposed to go? I drive through Oklahoma all the time and except for the turnpike, the roads are pure crap. especially around Oklahoma City. I-40 through town is overflowing with traffic and it has some dangerous interchanges and curves. it really needs to be widened and rerouted. if an old rail yard and some unused crumbling tunnels ahve to go, so be it. it's for the benefit of everyone.


now if the station was going to be destroyed, i would be all for this. but me, and anyone else that has to drive 40 across town all the time would happily sacrafice some unused tracks and tunnels for a safer drive.


but i can almost guarantee that the citizens will regret losing that space when the new interstate is clogged with traffic and they have nowhere to put a commuter or light rail line. it is too bad that cities look to more interstates before they look at light rail. they should pay attention to Southern California, where all the highways are clogged and there is no room to build more. now they want commuter and light rail but they have nowhere to put that either.


but those are just my opinions...i could be wrong.

[Anonymous]

Post comments and questions to the HEARTLAND FLYER list. There are members there such as TOM ELMORE that are very interested in saving the station from the greedy highway robbers.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heartland_flyer/

I'm not in OKC but those rail advocates are closer to the situation and could likely help you.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NightCrawler

this was all fine and good till you guys decided to post this idiotic piece on your site.

6: ODOT claims that the I-40 crosstown is crumbling. (Why does ODOT continue to let maximum weight trucks pass through at will?)

why the attack on trucks? where the heck else are trucks supposed to go? I drive through Oklahoma all the time and except for the turnpike, the roads are pure crap. especially around Oklahoma City. I-40 through town is overflowing with traffic and it has some dangerous interchanges and curves. it really needs to be widened and rerouted. if an old rail yard and some unused crumbling tunnels ahve to go, so be it. it's for the benefit of everyone.


now if the station was going to be destroyed, i would be all for this. but me, and anyone else that has to drive 40 across town all the time would happily sacrafice some unused tracks and tunnels for a safer drive.


but i can almost guarantee that the citizens will regret losing that space when the new interstate is clogged with traffic and they have nowhere to put a commuter or light rail line. it is too bad that cities look to more interstates before they look at light rail. they should pay attention to Southern California, where all the highways are clogged and there is no room to build more. now they want commuter and light rail but they have nowhere to put that either.


but those are just my opinions...i could be wrong.

There's more to the story!!!!!!

All post more Later !

[Anonymous]

Weren't we through bulldozing stations already?! I thought we finished this in the 1970's! Albuquerque NM lost its station in a fire, and would love to have it back. You have a wonderful station, and your city just wants to make it completely inoperable (1 track--what will that accomodate!)

I hadn't thought about getting religous groups involved, but it seems like a good idea. Also, one of the truest things I ever heard was that refurbishing historic structures is a form of environmental conservation--get environmentalists involved. Also, I am sure that there are some influential people out there who would help--get somebody with a Ph.D or a high title to write letters and appear on TV. Maybe one of your state's senators will be more preservation-minded than your congressman. One place you might start is at the local university.

Another thing to do is to get your message to a large audience. The place I might start is on a local affairs program of your public radio and televison stations, as I would guess that they would be more receptive to your message than a for-profit station. But if you can get on the for-profits, then do so as well. You probably don't have the money for it, but if you do, then I would suggest you run some advertisements in different media. I would also suggest writing an article for TRAINS magazine to reach the railroad audience, almost all of whom will care deeply.

Another tactic that could work is to show people that Oklahoma City Union Station is still relevant. If at all possible, try to run a passenger excursion of some sort out of the station. I'm probably dreaming here, but what if you got an operating steam locomotive, or at least a historic diesel, to come to Union Station? Or, if you can't, then how about holding some social events in the station (presuming it is still certified for public occupancy), such as lectures on various topics, orchestral concerts (how about a classical music group from your local university), or what if you restored some historic passenger cars on the unused tracks, and opened it up to the public. Of course, you would have to be careful about holding events in the station building, because it might strengthen the ODOT's case of leaving the building intact, but rendering it useless.

I suppose you could take this matter to court, if you have the resources, and in the time it would take, you could spread the word to more people, and another opportunity to help you preserve the station might arrise. Then again, the court could side with the department of transportation.

I looked at your website. Your statement about the maximum-weight trucks is rather extraneous, but other than that your arguments are very good, although you might need to elaborate more on them for the general public. Right now your biggest task is getting them to enough people.

Remember that you have something wonderful, which is not something to just be thrown away. The important thing is to KEEP WORKING TOWARD PRESERVING THE STATION--DON'T GIVE UP!. Remember that you have historic preservation on your side, and our support. Get help wherever you can find it--preservationists, environmentalists, religous groups, university professors (the students might be interested in becoming involved, also), and the general public.

I wish you the very best of luck,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

About the posting about the 'attack on trucks'.

Did you really read what that statement is trying to convey??? No you did not. The intent in that posting is that ODOT is using a lousy excuse to tear down the bridge that only needs to be redecked so that 'TRUCK' traffic can keep traveling on it.

[Anonymous]

Dear RichardR369,
I'm sorry I didn't understand the full implications of that statement. You might want to clarify it a little to avoid misinterpretations like mine.

I wish you the very best of luck,
Daniel