A Forty Year Mystery on the BNSF Transcon
Part “C” (of A-C)
In the beautiful Kingman, AZ area, what if such walling was used instead of cutting through all the rock for a third main, the second on the southern Main 2 path (background, top track on both below photos)?
If BNSF did lay a third-track on those 3 relatively short sections, a left running biased track arrangement would extend from Los Angeles all the way to Belen, NM, and possibly beyond! At Winslow, AZ trains would not have to get in the way of opposite running trains either, as is done now!
Anticipating that may (“may”) be the reasoning for the Barstow Classification Yard’s seemingly illogical opposite-to-the-norm yard entrance tracks, tracks that have been in place for nearly 40 years now!
A Second Section follows.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Second Section
The Sunset Route seems to have its own thorny, weird issues for its two-tracking. Most prominent is the Colorado River SINGLE track crossing in Yuma, AZ.
Another is the signaling for a four-track situation in Pomona, CA while there is nearby only bridging for three tracks!
Continued in Third Section
Third Section
And the proliferation (seemingly) of spring frog switches for the future, big CP AL514 HAMILTON (also in Pomona) that does NOT match the routing aspects, i.e., that the majority of trains will be transferring from the SP-side on the east to the LA&SL-side on the west.
Will the multiplicity of assumedly switch parts boxes at Colton …
… correct that by replacing never put in service spring frog switches with moveable point frog types? Time will tell. And remember, IF trains ride the SP side all the way to Los Angeles and then follow the Los Angeles River south to the Alameda Trench to get to the ports, those trains will encounter a bunch (“bunch”) of hot priority commuter trains, which passing through and getting in the way of Sunset Route trains is a dilemma in itself.
The fact that both railroads have thorny, mystery-like dilemma situations makes for real-world drama for us observers to watch (though they are very subtle and snail-paced in solving) that in some ways rival the dramas of untrue quick-paced mythology.
A couple of replies follow.
Replies:
BarstowRick (8-9):
As you said, dispatcher choice of tracks to use does not make much difference with CTC. However, that truth declines in truthfulness as train density rises. When K.P. was in Arizona along the Trancon it did NOT occur, but in desertdog’s travels it happened when he traveled along the Transcon, namely, trains every 10 minutes!
A fleet of fifteen westbound trains meeting a fleet of ten eastbounds simply does not allow a dispatch the leisure to choose tracks at his whim. If he does, nevertheless, and delays all 25 trains, or at least the majority of them, by four hours, he will likely be called on the carpet, and experience the torture of pitchforks and daggers being run through him, if you know what I mean …
At a Transcon bias transition place, Winslow, AZ, K.P. did see chronic delays because trains exceeded the design limitations of the physical plant, and so often hung into the CP’s.
Can you imagine all the high-cost fuel wasted at Winslow because the trains ahead had blocked the interlocking?
desertdog (8-9):
Thanks for your eyewitness testimony on the left running bias EAST of Winslow during the high density train volume period you saw while traveling westbound on I-40. I did not see enough trains WEST of Winslow to declare it definitively, but the limited amount of trains that I did see was consist with the believed right bias WEST of there, which aerials also back up.
How was I-17 southbound to Phoenix? When I traveled northbound on it on the way to Winslow, it was packed, really packed! I know, I know, Arizona probably does have the money to add lanes …
Obviously BNSF has money to do what it wants on the Transcon, as they keep buying and buying locomotives by the hundreds, year after year. UP’s purchases for new power that could traverse the Sunset Route are sure skimpy in comparison, year after year.
Best to all,
K.P.
diningcar (8-11):
Most certainly we need to be careful in assessing observations with very limited data. But, the Transcon in some respects doesn’t need data, just a historic comprehension of the line, such as in Automatic Block Signal (ABS) days all trains ran left handed between Winslow, AZ and Belen, NM. The reason for that bias has NOT changed with CTC, and the gradient that favors one track over another for a specific direction at a specific location has not changed.
Forum contributor desertdog’s left running observations EAST of Winslow, AZ are consistent with tradition.
I’ve spend many an hour at Daggett, CA (near Barstow) over the decades, and even under CTC now eastward TO Winslow, trains consistently operate with a right bias through Daggett, with an occasional train running against the bias, likely for the DS to get one train around another.
Daggett, CA, looking east:
Looking westbound:
Looking westbound towards the junction switch for the LA&SL:
(A lot of California Sunset Route trains between Colton and Pomona came from or are going to Daggett, and went under or will go under the above cantilever structure.)
A southeast late afternoon view of the east BNSF interlocking signals at Daggett in a wide open desert-scape:
The current volume of train traffic on the UP Sunset Route is comparable to what Santa Fe had on the Transcon forty years ago, at least in the above shown Daggett area. Rest assured that when the Sunset Route eventually gets to the volume of traffic that the Transcon has now, Sunset Route dispatchers won’t be flipping coins to decide what the bias will be for the day, it will just be a carry-over from the day before, the week before, the month before, and year before.
I should probably spend a night in Winslow and take a lot of time to watch the Transcon. But, a negative to doing such is that I can spend TWO nights in Tucson (on the Sunset Route) for the price I would pay for ONE night in Winslow, at least in the summer. It is even worse in Flagstaff because of its closer proximity to the Grand Canyon. Oh well.
Take care,
Do not know if you have seen this from Progressive Railroading.
BNSF Railway Co. recently launched work on a $68 million double-track project west of Vaughn, N.M.The Class I plans to build 9.3-mile second main track to eliminate one of only four remaining single-track sections on its Southern Transcon route between Chicago and Los Angeles. Grading work is under way and track construction is scheduled to start in early 2015, with the double track expected to enter service in mid-2015.The additional capacity will improve velocity and enhance service along the Transcon — one of the railroad’s most important routes, BNSF officials said in a press release. After the project is completed, only 25 miles of single track will remain on the route, including a 2.3-mile segment in Ft. Sumner, N.M., over the Pecos River, they said.The project is part of BNSF’s $5 billion capital plan in 2014, of which $2.3 billion is budgeted to improve the railroad's core network and related assets.
David1005 (8-11):
No, I had not seen the news article about bridging the gap in BNSF two-tracking at and west of Vaughn, NM. Thanks for the tipoff.
I guess we will all find out soon what BNSF intends on doing about the big landfill at Vaughn for going over UP’s Golden State Route (which UP route meets up with the Sunset Route at El Paso, TX). BNSF could widen the landfill, or use walling like the short section in Cajon Pass, just posted about a day or so ago.
BNSF spent about $5 million a mile in Cajon Pass in 2007-2008.on triple-tracking about 16 miles, $80 million total. Solid rock had to be cut away in a few places. (Below photo’s upper right)
With the Vaughn project, it looks like BNSF is spending $7.3 million a mile. Wow! Of course, since 2007-2008 there has been inflation, but still, that is quite a sum per mile!
It is tempting to drive out that way and see the project in person. I’ve never investigated the area in depth before, but it looks like from aerials there is a grade crossing east of the big landfill in Vaughn, and photos could be taken from there (maybe).
AERIAL LINK: Vaughn, NM Wide Area View
AERIAL LINK: Vaughn, NM Grade Crossing
Of course, if I do go out that way, and that far from Southern California, I should include UP’s Sunset Route Santa Teresa, NM complex on the itinerary. A lot of charcoals are suddenly in the fire …
Hey, David1005 (or anyone for that matter), that article you posted mentioned a 2.3 mile segment of two-tracking yet to do at Fort Sumner, NM. Aerials of the town indicated that is an area where the Transcon makes something like a 90 degree curve. When traveling out that way some years ago I saw a spectacular, somewhat high single-track metal bridge, likely silver painted, that went over the two-lane highway and swooping curved to something like a 90 degree angle, maybe a mile in length. Aerials suggest Fort Sumner might be that location. But, those aerials show a different bridging over the highway, and NO bridge swooping north and curving eastward. Did someone on the spaceship Enterprise beam the bridge up so it is not in New Mexico anymore, or did I mistake the location for somewhere else? I can’t seem to find anywhere else that halfway fits the description I remember, just Fort Sumner.
AERIAL LINK: Fort Sumner Area 90 Degree Curving
On the stupid trivia side … Your post name, David1005 … Did you know in 1977 Omnitrans (the local transit agency in San Bernardino, CA) had a northbound Flexible bus numbered 1005 on Waterman Ave. about a mile north of the Sunset Route and as it went over the Santa Ana River bridge some clutch froze, violently sending it through the back floor, bounced off the roof, and landing on the back seat? It was glowing red hot, and naturally the back seat immediately burst into flames, and the whole bus burnt up! Because of the type of work I did at the time, a few days later I actually was able to walk inside of the burned out hulk. Some numbers – like 1005 -- are never forgotten …I told you it was stupid trivia!
Your invitation is tempting … I could spend a day or part of a day in Winslow, AZ while on the way to Vaughn and / or Fort Sumner, NM, as in the reply to David1005 above. Let me think about all this for a while …
Of course, if I want to see the current bias situation real quick on the southern Transcon (IF there is a bias situation now), I could just spend a day at Daggett, CA. That is tempting too, especially since I haven’t done that for several years … But, it is roasting hot out that way now in this scorching summertime …
Best,
Visiting the Trusses
Grand Terrace, CA Area
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 K.P. had opportunity to check out the trusses status, and found not much had changed, but the concrete abutments and woodwork were slightly more developed. A more thorough, brief report will be forthcoming in a day or so.
A westbound train off the Sunset Route via the Mt. Vernon Connector apparently got hung up with red flags, but eventually approached Main St. in Highgrove.
The last unit on the train was one of those railfan popular GE C40-8’s that have been showing up of late.
The graffiti people did a job on the unit!
More about the trusses in the upcoming short presentation …
Aerials Don’t Lie
As most know, the saga of mysteries relative to the Diversion in Pomona, CA and the spring frog switches at the future CP AL514 HAMILTON therein continues. Every once in a while K.P. sees a great flash to light, and everything makes sense thereafter. Such an experience occurred yesterday, and aerials were checked, and sure enough …
A short write-up on the Pomona Diversion is in the works too, and while unofficial and basically just conjecture, everything now makes sense. And, our A to D tracks might not exactly be A to D. Hopefully, a short presentation can be finished in a few days.
Thanks for the updates with regard to Grand Terrace and the construction of the bridges. One more to go is how I read it.
KP I think you read to much into what I said. I did not say, nor imply, that dispatchers move trains at a "Whim", they move trains around with regard to what's most efficient...for the railroad. Rules and guidelines rule the day. Using the example of a faster train running around a slower one, what would appear to be left hand running or "Bias" as you stated. Another example would be a train that has developed operational problems and had to stop to make repairs Ie., a broken coupler. And that's the truth.
On Cajon Pass the Santa Fe preferred to operate their trains via left hand running. Giving the uphill trains the easier grade to climb. Today, it's all based on what trains can run down the hill safely without the danger of a run away. As a result you will still see left hand running. All that is about to change but not necessarily end, as improvements are made and power stables change the way trains will be run in the future.
Despite what we might think about "Bias" the railroads don't look at in quite the same way. Although like you said, "It makes for an interesting discussion". Perhaps a bit over done but I don't mind.
Barstow's yard is not so dissimilar to some UP yards. Designed and engineered for quick processing, classification and the make up of trains. Hardly odd at all.
Rumor mill in the Victorville arena, has it the narrows crossover may become a thing of the past. A new road is being planned, darn near over the top of the narrows to connect Victorville with Apple Valley, Ca. It's been said by more then one BNSF and former Santa Fe dispatcher, the narrows crossover can cause them headaches in dispatching.
Anyway, what's your two cents on what's happening or may happen.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
BarstowRick (8-15): K.P. on the Prowl Again
Greetings, Rick!
Before your post is addressed … Thursday, it looked like Friday would be a free day, and a grandiose plan was drawn up to visit Barstow and the BNSF Transcon, and document the believed biases there once and for all. It proved to be a free day all right, and the alarm clock rang at 3:00 A.M. for getting to Daggett by 5:00 A.M., by dawn. But my creaky old body had other ideas …
Later, I ended up going the OTHER way, towards Los Angeles! So now I have Grand Terrace area photos to post, photo proof of radical things pertaining to the Pomona Diversion, photos by Workman Mill Rd. related to the Puente Hills Intermodal Facility (PHIMF), a lit yellow over yellow signal at CP C038 ONTARIO (below) …
… and photos of the Vineyard Ave. underpass construction in Ontario. ONLY about 140 photos were taken between the two days (I was out on a dispatch Thursday), but those photos convey the happenings quite well. Expect some very soon future posts on all this.
BarstowRick (8-15): Regular Reply
Addressing your specific reply … Just for clarification, one train running around another does NOT constitute a bias. A bias reference (unofficially) is repeated and repeated and repeated use of a certain track in a certain direction. Between Cajon and Summit on BNSF’s Cajon Pass line, for example, Main 1 is used in that bias way, even though running a train the other way is possible, and such does occur from time to time, the far majority of movements are in accord with the bias, uphill eastbound on Main 1.
When UP finally builds its Red Rock Yard at Red Rock, AZ, it would seem the yard will be built on the north side of the two-track mainline. Press accounts with crude drawings even show it that way! Since Red Rock will be an EASTBOUND classification yard, it stands to reason that entrances and exits would be Main 1 eastbound biased. The Barstow Classification Yard presently is the opposite to such reasoning, and because of that, as mentioned previously, the famed late photographer Richard Steinheimer thought maybe the “natural crossover” at Frost (near Victorville) would be eliminated. It probably has been forty years since Steinheimer penned that idea, and now YOU say, BarstowRick, that there is a rumor (“rumor”) among trainmen of that very thing happening soon! Interesting!
If the natural crossover at Cajon Sub M.P. 39.1 near the Mojave Narrows was to be retained, it likely would need major revamping.
Above, if a conductor survived walking his train high up at M.P. 39.1, he might need psychiatric testing … I think I would after that kind of harrowing experience!
Thirty-five to forty years ago I was privileged to actually talk to the Cajon Dispatcher in the Dispatch Office then in San Bernardino above the depot. He told me sometimes his board had every track light on!
In those days, little miniature lights showed where trains were. And, that was when there were only about 40 trains a day, and the Cajon Sub was known as Santa Fe’s First District, and the DS board ran from 5th Street (in San Bernardino) to Hodge (near Barstow)!
OK. Now, let us get back to the Sunset Route … Do you, BarstowRick, have your sound-deadening earpieces for when the jackhammers arrive? Wait till you see the new photos taken yesterday and what they IMPLY about the Diversion in Pomona …
KP, I have my ear plugs on but it doesn't much matter as I'm up here in Big Bear Country and they can pound away all they want. I'd never hear it.
You know besides Steinheimer there were other's such as Chard Walker, who felt that at some point in the future the crossover or flyover, just this side of Frost, near the narrows would be eliminated. Talking about the possibilities of three tracking the Santa Fe main. All speculation while it. made for some interesting afternoons of chatter. At the time we all felt the tunnels wouldn't survive.
Getting back to the chatter about the crossover just south of Frost. Today, the folks in Apple Valley and Victorville want another four lane road that will connect Apple Valley to I-15. Bear Valley Cutoff is anything but a cut off and the traffic over the Mojave River is bumper to bumper as they pass the Victor Valley College. Remaining that way until you finally cross the I-15. Never mind I-15 over Cajon Pass...lately. Hwy 18, isn't much better. So the plan is to build a four lane Hwy that will run east and west possibly crossing the Mojave River somewhere near BNSF's not so natural crossover. According to those I talk to and I'm always quick to point out "The Rumor Mill". Plans are on the table and surveys made with an eye on changing the track plan at that location. I have no idea what is going to happen next. This could be as big a boon doggle as the plans BNSF had for a shipping facility at the old GAFB. Never mind the plans they had for San Bernardino, CA.. We shall see what happens next.
Update as of Thursday, August 14, 2015
The BNSF Truss Bridges
The Grand Terrace, CA Area
The new north (railroad east) side support-work for the future truss bridges over the I-215 Freeway:
The new center pier-work
Just above, if you look real good, there seems to be THREE support pairs of two posts each!
That would match the south supports that seem to have three supports under construction, especially when comparing the present truss bridge supports on the below photo’s left.
Because those supports (just above) are at an angle and mostly unseen, it is difficult to interpret them. From what is seen, though, the implication is that the two truss bridges that are in service will BOTH be moved to NEW alignments.
A northward (eastbound) view from Main St. in Highgrove: A double-stack UP off the Sunset Route, from Arizona and New Mexico, passes in the background and the far right on this alternate Sunset Route, over the BNSF / LA&SL.:
In theory, a new BNSF Main 1 could be laid in the foreground semi-clear ground (above). The north support’s temporary woodwork can be seen in the background, this side of the background double-stack well cars.
In an email recently to K.P. from MikeF90, Mike mentioned THREE new bridge alignments. Maybe he was right!
The implication of what Mike felt and the actual ground situation would mean three bridges with FIVE concrete support groups!
This will conclude this truss bridges posting. A reply to BarstowRick follows in the next post.
BarstowRick (8-15A):
That was a fascinate news thought about a new thru-highway by the BNSF “natural crossover” in Victorville, CA. Sounds great, but I don’t know how they could get through all the buildings (residential and business) in Victorville proper!
Ranchero Rd. in Hesperia goes though now from I-15 (almost), under the BNSF Transcon, and points east.
July 1, 2013 eastward photos
With the disastrous burning of the under construction Ranchero Rd. bridge over I-15, Caltrans reportedly was set back 6 months on the project.
Hey, Rick, you might be interested in this probably little known fact outside of involved railroaders … On the Palmdale Cutoff THROUGH CAJON PASS that “T” wyes into the Sunset Route at Colton, there was a spur in the M.P. 460 area that went to an electric utility.
March 25, 2008 photos
Even as a non-railroader, knowledge of that spur scared me to death. It reportedly had NO electric lock, only a padlock on the switch stand! Gutsy vandals could have easily thrown the switch in front of an approaching train, causing a disaster. Reportedly, that switch is no longer there, it being completely removed some months back. The location was a very good place to have an automatic block signal if the railroad wasn’t going to have an electric lock protecting the switch.
Enjoy the clear and clean air in Big Bear,
Maybe ....
Let's see - three abutments sans bridges on each side, 3 center pylons, all line up with the previously straight alignment.
You will see the fifth and sixth trusses placed on the closest alignment and the other four trusses shifted alongside them. Afterward the currently-in use abutments and pylons will be demo'd
A10
KP,
I raised my kids in Victorville, Ca., at the time a scrawny little wanna be watering hole along the road way. I'm very much aware of the switch to the electric switching planet. Like you, I puzzled over it as well wondering what was up with the lock. However, at the time SP had an agreement to deliver experimental hardware for an alternative electric generating planet. Started looking like something from Star Wars, out there.. As far as security, prior to 9-11 no one even considered the lock on the switchstand as being a risk. No percieved threat, other then maybe kids playing on quads down around that area. The threat being their safety. It was common practice by the railroads to secure a switchstand in such a fashion. Today, we act paranoid and spend huge amounts of money to protect against an unseen enemy, who wants to kill Americans. Suggesting, that paranoia may save lives in the long run.
Mr. BNSF..., So the construction on the newest bridge over the Mojave River is in progress. How about that. Curious, how are they going to connect with I-15? Thinking an over pass is needed as well as new on and off ramps. If they try to use the Green Tree, at 7th St., gosh what a cluster ________, (yeah I thought you could fill in the blank) that's going to be. The last time I went through there three of us were able to complete a game of monopoly.
KP said "When UP finally builds its Red Rock Yard at Red Rock, AZ, it would seem the yard will be built on the north side of the two-track mainline."
Yep. There's really no other alternative. Only 150 feet separate the shoulder of westbound I-10 and the ballast on the UP's mainline... There's also a pipeline easement and a service road between the two.
That, in conjunction with the Tucson Yard being on the south side of the main, leads me to speculate that there will continue to be a left-track bias east of Estrella and west of Tucson.
Or, maybe we'll see a flyover by Picacho Peak.... ;)
Thanks Vern and BNSF for the comeback.
HIVOLT is what I remember as well. Just not as quick on the draw in the memory banks these days.
The road across Victorville and into Apple Valley was planned and funds acquired to build it. The green minded ones decided to stir up the pot, with their hands out wanting a piece of the pie. They got a judge in the Banning-Beaumont area to freeze the project. Traffic just got worse and worse until one day a green minded one figured out how much of a carbon foot print he was creating sitting in traffic on 7th st. raising his kids to a semblance of maturity and decided it was ok to build the new road. Sadly, it will still be a bit of a quagmire as folks continue to move to the desert. Not a lot of inexpensive housing left in the greater basin of Southern California.
Anyway, we shall see what happens next. Watching all the fun from this hill top vantage point.
Status of the Friday, August 15, 2014 Update
The basic composition and organization outline is more or less done, and next the photos will be worked on and transferred to Photobucket for showing here at the forum. Some of the concepts and photos to be presented may surprise some here at the forum. Tentatively, as of now, two groups are planned, Parts A-H and I-Q.
Tentatively, Part P will have this photo of the Vineyard Ave. underpass construction in Ontario (CA) …
… which construction rises the Sunset Route (behind the camera) by 4 feet.
Wouldn’t You Know It?
There has been much Sunset Route thread replying of late related to BNSF’s “natural crossover” in the Frost (Victorville), CA area. Unbelievably, K.P. was ‘out of the blue’ dispatched to Victorville yesterday afternoon, Sunday, August 17, 2014. And, he was able to check out that natural crossover area firsthand, and will share some of the findings in the replies below.
Replies
BNSF6400 (8-16/17):
Your sharing the bridging news in the Frost, CA area got me rather excited, and when a surprise dispatch came for Victorville, I hopped on it with gusto! Somehow I had envisioned bridging over the BNSF tracks now in place, but I only found some new auto roadway grading , orange pylons at the blocked Ridgecrest Rd. where it becomes Yates Rd., by BNSF’s natural crossover (background of below photo),.
To All Interested in BNSF’s Natural Crossover
This is what the “natural crossover” looks like from up on the hills east of it:
An eastbound BNSF heading downgrade to go under the other track:
Continued …
To All Interested in BNSF’s Natural Crossover (Continued)
From up above and east of the natural crossover, it can be seen that trainmen have a pathway to walk their train if necessary.
Even the M.P. 39.1 Bridge has walkways.
So, with these things in mind, doing away with the natural crossover for safety reasons seems kind of unlikely.
Below right, the BNSF tracks are seen, with Green Tree Blvd. up towards the photo top.
That Green Tree Blvd will somehow have to come towards the camera, go over the tracks, and swing to the right to connect with Yates Rd way behind the camera's right.
LA&SL trains have trackage rights on this BNSF subdivision. It seems most of those trains transition to or from the Sunset Route, utilizing the SP track to or from Pomona.
More Replies
SP657E44 (8-16):
If Caltrans does demolish the newly built and soon to be unused abutments for the truss bridges over the I-215 Freeway in the Grand Terrace, CA area, that will be a sure indicator that NO entity expects to lay a fourth track! Four as in three for BNSF and one for Metrolink / UP (UP as in off of or to the Sunset Route).
BarstowRick (8-17):
Vigilance is good, but paranoia leads to un-Americanism!
Railfan & Railroad Magazine proved that! Some commuter outfit tried to take the photo rights away from those associated with that magazine, and by the commuter outfit trying to do so, it encountered those determined to uphold America’s great freedom and the liberty the nation’s flag stands for! And, those freedom fighters won in the courts!
eolesen (8-17):
I concur with your observation of there being no other way but a north of the mains classification yard at Red Rock, AZ.
What baffles me is the location on the Sunset Route. An eastbound classification yard there cuts off all traffic to Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and the Central Corridor. Maybe (“maybe”) all boxcar traffic will go via the Sunset Route, leaving the LA&SL for intermodal hotshots to or from Chicago!
Vern Moore (8-17):
You mentioned that Hivolt (on the Palmdale Cutoff) was used as a helper pocket. I wasn’t as adventurous in the past, and never saw that in SP days. My understanding now is that under UP the now gone Hivolt track with its then non-electrically locked switch was an eternal torment place for trainmen because they could not get out of it! Obviously, there is some way of doing it, but I guess a train would have to get clock and time on the whole section of tracks between control points and move at reduced speed even though the signals were green!
About that little siding within the Hiland siding, aerials seem to show that little siding doesn’t even have entrance signals, and if it too has no electric locks, would put it in the eternal torment class of the Hivolt spur brought up a moment ago.
AERIAL LINK: Helper Pocket or Maintenance-of-Way Track?
Please let us know if you ever get wind of anything official on this or from a trainman.
Take care all,
Hi KP,
Quoting you:
Railfan & Railroad Magazine proved that! Some commuter outfit tried to take the photo rights away from those associated with that magazine, and by the commuter outfit trying to do so, it encountered those determined to uphold America’s great freedom and the liberty the nation’s flag stands for! And, those freedom fighters won in the courts! End quote.
My response. No disagreement here.
What I was referring to is more historical, pointing to the every day operations on most spur lines or spurs back when HIVOLT was built. Did I emphasize "Spur" enough...sigh!.
Paranoia implying that all the new gizmo's and gadgets Ie., the electric switches and signals installed...today...is due to paranoia. Safety being the ultimate concern, of course. At one time unlocking the lock and opening the switch manually was considered to be every day practice by railroad crews as the locals moved about switching cars Ie., picking up empties and delivering full loads.Track warrants ruled the day and a dispatcher would simply move the trains as needed keeping in mind the location of the next through train. Got's to keep the mainline clear. Anyway, no big deal. Just pointing out how much things have changed as you have noted here since 9-11
The short siding as illustrated by the aerial link. That's been there ever since the Palmdale Cut Off was built and tracks laid over Cajon Pass, Ca. . The last time I was there it appeared to be in bad repair with derails installed. I've never seen helpers hold up there. Usually the helpers cut off down at the summit in front of the spot where the Descanso once set. Holding up in the longer siding either returning back to point of origination or following the departing train. I believe the shorter siding was intended for set outs Ie., Hot Box .Although I've never seen any train cars parked there.
The Unnatural Crossover (man made not natural) is a place I've hung out watching trains and capturing various images.
As BNSF pointed out with todays update and Vern added the historical background. In review: Back 25 years ago the talk of the city fathers was to put in a new four lane highway between what was then known as Bear Valley Cutoff and Green tree Blvd., From I-15 over to Apple Valley, Ca.. The intent was never to connect with Green Tree Blvd., but to by pass it. Judging from what I'm hearing and what's been shared here I'm pretty sure that's still the plan. The route considered included Nisqually with a bend north and over the not so natural crossover. The one picture you took with Green Tree Blvd., viewable. Try to imagine and you might find survey markers. The four lane hwy., (original plan) would come in from the left of the picture and cross over the tracks just to the right of where you are standing. Disclaimer: Unless plans have changed as BNSF indicated.
The best thing they could do is but in (I meant put in) an overpass at the juncture with the Hesperia Road. Another signal light would only add to the parking facility (quagmire) already in place.
Even back then activist in the area went nuts. You had the dune buggy, quad runners, four wheelers, all bouncing up and down (literally) never mind the naturalist and as we say today the green minded ones. Oh well!
My two cents and I take chump change.
We keep hearing about capacity problems all over America. The railroads are adding capacity as fast as they can but it does not happen over night. Case in point is the Sunset route. Over 5,000 blogs ago KP started a great line in covering this upgrade and it still is not completed but getting close. Buying more locomotives and getting more crews will help a little with congestion but what is needed is more track to handle the congestion. This problem is not just with the Sunset route. Just be glad we do not have to live with Chicago and its congestion.
How many tracks come north out of Riverside ? Three.
BNSF's latest projects on the SB sub ? Three tracks at most locations (Valley View has 4 because of the yard lead on the south side). Metro/UP don't need their own mainline when there are three available.
ccltrainsWe keep hearing about capacity problems all over America.
OTOH I've noticed that UP insiders complain about investments in shiny new DT but way too many inadequately maintained engines that can't pull to keep up the flow of traffic. Go figure.
Don't think we'll see much push for triple tracking - two mains and maybe a few staging sidings will go a very long way vs single track. The 3MT 'gap' in the BNSF San Bernardino sub north of Highgrove is very short in the big picture. Likewise they are letting the publicly funded grade seps in LA and Orange County set the pace, obviously no big rush.
UP isn't pushing much harder on the Sunset Route - 30 to 50 (?) new miles of second main a year. If they were really hurting you would see a contractor led ROW grading blitz in CA and AZ. Show me the contracts!
Just a suggestion, but discussion of further BNSF expansion could be moved to these topics:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/102777.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/144645.aspx
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
I think UP's approach makes sense when you take it up a level from just the Sunset Route.
Let's say they did a blitz and finished the double tracking by the end of 2015. The goal I've heard is to be up to 70 trains a day thru TUS, but the harsher reality is that UP doesn't have the yard space or the crews & equipment to handle that type of volume. The eastbound yard in Red Rock is still 24-48 months away from being operational. It wouldn't surprise me to see it going into operation about the same time they finish the double tracking.
BarstowRick (8-19):
How about You and I Go to Mars?
Do you want to know a secret? I have a spaceship! Would you want to go to Mars with me? (Just kidding …)
Seriously, about a block south (left) of Coad Rd. (that photo bottom road that aligns with the photo top Green Tree Blvd.) in that photo I posted, duplicated here …
… is something almost Mars-like. It kind of looks like a curving road, but has no beginning and no end, and doesn’t have any connections to the present roadways. …
The spaceship actually was landed on it.
I have no idea if someone was going through their second childhood and played grader or something, or the City was acting like UP in two-tracking the Sunset Route, i.e., only doing short segments at a time of a future road. But, I just thought I would pass that along … to put a little Mars fun in your life!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.