When the Maricopa situation is "fixed" (whenever that may be), will it be cheaper for Amtrak to pay for a closer crossover, or a second platform for the other main track?
The key thing with Maricopa, in my opinion, is lengthening the platform(s) so the train only has to stop once or twice. Then again, if they ever put Arizona 347 above (or below) the tracks, then maybe a shorter platform would suffice.
+++++
I drove by the Puente/Workman Mill underpass late last night. Since it was dark, not much could be seen; however, looks like work is definitely underway.
Didn't the Sunset Limited and Golden State go through Phoenix AZ?, I read on Streamlinermemories that route was some 40 miles longer than the route from Yuma AZ.
Is this correct? What is the status on the tracks between Rolls and Buckeye AZ? Are the tracks still being used?
KP:
Greetings! Due to a technical glitch, I have not been able to login to make any replys since late 2015. It is great to be back in touch and to thank you for all the coverage that you have provided-- great stuff!!
Now that the Perris Valley Line is in operation, I am enjoying your posts on the Redlands Loop-- a line that I have taken a "tour" of on Google maps many years before.
It would seem that the Inland Empire has seen a lot of rail improvements over the past several years; has that been due to efforts by SANBAG? After Redlands and the Trench, do you see any more large projects down the line, or, is most of it now nearing completion?
Anyway, my thanks to you and the other contributors. You have provided a lot of inspiration for my SoCal layout. I have even a cement quarry and plant, but no Cement Mountain as of yet (any new photos would be appreciated of former Slover Mtn). Your coverage is greatly entertaining and appreciated.
--John
K.P.:
It appears that the Brazos River bridge in the Richmond/Rosenberg TX area is back in service. I don't know when that happened, but I am currently (8:30 PM EDT, today) following Amtak #1 on Amtrak Track-A-Train, and it is following the normal route (indicated by the red line), after having left Houston. Previously, when following the detour on BNSF, it would deviate from the red line, head south to Alvin TX and then north, before rejoining the red line at Rosenberg.
It sort of reminded me of a book from my early childhood from the Golden Book series: Tootle. Tootle was a young steam engine-in-training, that sometimes was wont to wander and frolic off the tracks. He had to be reminded to "always stay on the tracks, no matter what".
I'm watching it as I'm writing this. It was just a little past the bridge with an indicated speed of 20 MPH, so there may be a temporary speed restriction, but I really don't know what the normal speed would be. Twenty (or even less over the bridge itself), however, does seem a little slow for a normal speed.
Pete
ATSFGuy Didn't the Sunset Limited and Golden State go through Phoenix AZ?, I read on Streamlinermemories that route was some 40 miles longer than the route from Yuma AZ. Is this correct? What is the status on the tracks between Rolls and Buckeye AZ?Are the tracks still being used?
Is this correct? What is the status on the tracks between Rolls and Buckeye AZ?Are the tracks still being used?
Yes, that's correct. Not only the trains you mentioned to include, the Rock Island "Golden State," went through Phonix. They also operated freight trains as well as other through passenger trains right through Phoenix.
There was a time when the former SP mainline through Phoenix, was the only tracks through Southern Arizona. It wouldn't be until more recent times the main Amtrak and UP now route trains over would come into being. Percieved as a short cut of sort's. Sorry, dates escape me.
For a time Amtrak did route into Pheonix and out on the old main until a suspected sabotager pulled up rails derailing the Amtrak's Sunset Limited. After that it's now an Amtrak bus from Phoneix to Tuscon.
I hope that helps.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
BarstowRick,
An interesting sidebar to this route was the EP&SW, the trains took different routes east of Tuscon towards Benson. It was a joint Line but eastbound and westbound trains used diffrernt tracks. After 1961, all trains were moved to the former SP line between El Paso and Benson, bypassing Douglas and the environs the EP&SW line between Douglas & El Paso was abandoned. and the tracks were later ripped up.
"It looks like to the right (south) of the current track in the grade crossing at Walnut Grove Ave. (in the photo background) the new trench track will be laid on the far right and angle across that street. However, that street will not be lowered and track laid to the east UNTIL the track in the trench is laid and signaling ready to be cut over. Then, probably in a one day or weekend blitz Walnut Grove Ave. will be closed, roadway lowered, a cut will be lowered for a new track, track laid, put in service, the old track removed from Walnut Grove Ave., and then the roadway lowered on each side of the new track, paved, and everything passable again! That is what I think, but won’t bet any money on it …"
I wouldn't bet any money either, Walnut Grove is not part of the project. The current deviation begins near the cul-de-sac on Earle ave. and the track will return to it's previous location when the trench is completed.
A10
ATSFGuy BarstowRick, An interesting sidebar to this route was the EP&SW, the trains took different routes east of Tuscon towards Benson. It was a joint Line but eastbound and westbound trains used diffrernt tracks. After 1961, all trains were moved to the former SP line between El Paso and Benson, bypassing Douglas and the environs the EP&SW line between Douglas & El Paso was abandoned. and the tracks were later ripped up.
That be true! El Paso and South Western...right? Trying to remember where SP tied tracks from San Diego, Ca., into their mainline. The tracks that made up the San Diego and Arizona Eastern.
BarstowRickThat be true! El Paso and South Western...right? Trying to remember where SP tied tracks from San Diego, Ca., into their mainline. The tracks that made up the San Diego and Arizona Eastern.
That would be Niland, CA, where the SP/SDA&E remnants that UP kept still tie in. South to Calexico/Mexicali and west from El Centro to Plaster City and the USG plant.
Yesterday -- Wow! What a Super Weird Day!
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 K.P. was in Nevada, in a little less area than the planned Nevada, Arizona and Utah trip, the latter two states being forsaken for the lack of time. As the forum knows the LA&SL (south of Las Vegas) had the signals all converted to Positive Train Control compliant new signals and they are all active. That was checked out, and some real surprises were seen. One surprise included a boneyard type collection of Cima Hill old signals at Kelso, CA!
The new, activated type signals on Cima Hill K.P. believes will ultimately show up on the remaining single-track on the Sunset Route in Arizona. Also, a City of Industry (CA) mystery might have a possible answer now. A posting series is hoped to be posted on all this sometime in the near future.
It just so happened in Nevada I was attempting to photograph a problem situation on a UP branch, but found it was NOT a problem at all, but was done on purpose, and NOT by UP. And, what timing! A source just happened to inform me that something unbelievable is brewing with Metrolink (in Southern California) that is sort of related to that Nevada case! Those matters indirectly relates to branch lines off the Sunset Route! There is a lot to digest and post about, hopefully soon.
Some replies also are in order for recent posts, and they will be posted hopefully soon too. A reply to desertdog was single out, however.
desertdog (7-29):
About the future Maricopa, AZ Amtrak stop, and some type of future depot, being on the south, Main 2, side on a separate south side siding, the absence of visual diagraming because of the problems now with the TRAINS Magazine website, those website problems might have compounder your confusion. ALSO, your description is opposite to the biases in that area, at least as how I understand them being here in California. (When the Sunset Route in Arizona is all two-tracked, those biases will be more pronounced and obvious, but presently trains seem to be routed according to the whims of the dispatcher, though it is only a matter of time if not already that dispatchers will figure out how to NOT make extra work for themselves and use the biases mentioned below).
Picture, John, an eastbound Amtrak No. 2 which theoretically should be biased to Main 1 approaching the new Amtrak station stop It likely will have to crossover at CP SP887 ENID from Main 1 to Main 2 and travel eastbound a number of miles on a track usually used by westbounds. If there is a bunch (“bunch”) of westbound trains they will get hung up by that Amtrak No. 2. Those westbound freights could in theory crossover at CP SP899 MARICOPA, but if there is a bunch of eastbounds on Main 1 also following that eastbound Amtrak (eastbound to CP SP887 ENID), a severe delay situation arises. That is where a crossover just WEST of the new depot would act as an escape route and ease congestion and conflict.
But, since it is unlikely that Amtrak has the money for an added crossover, that conflict situation will continue and UP would thus have ammunition for continuing UP’s requesting Amtrak to only schedule tri-weekly service for Amtrak Nos 1 and 2.
The big difference with the BNSF, and I am sure diningcar will attest to this, is that many Amtrak stops on the Transcon, at least the western part, have crossovers on each side of the Amtrak stops, so a DAILY Nos. 3 and 4 have little conflict to deal with. Of course, there are so many Transcon freights going each direction Amtrak often gets bogged down in not being able to get around freights.
Anyway, desertdog, it is hoped that explanation makes more sense and I didn’t make the confusion worse …
Best,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Amtrak No's 3 and 4 use whatever track the depot is on and may be on that track for an extended time if " that is the dispatchers plan for that particular day". They may also be crossed over to that track shortly before approaching the station or any time the DS finds it to his/her advantage on that particular day.
We must keep in mind that each dispatcher has jurisdiction over only a segment of the RR. On BNSF's Transcon for example the segments we have been discussing are Belen to Gallup; Gallup to Winslow; Winslow to Seligman; Seligman to Needles and Needles to Barstow. Now consider that the DS will only have #3 or #4 on his segment for about sixty to ninety minutes of his shift. And his/her successors will not have them at all under normal conditions. Given near normal conditions Amtrak is only a minor, if any, problem.
Now thinking about UP and #1 and #2, they do not operate daily and so a DS may not have them at all. But when they do, and with double track CTC in operation, it should not be much of a problem under normal conditions. We here at this site perhaps do not fully appreciate the advantages a dispacher has with double track and CTC.
ChuckCobleigh BarstowRick That be true! El Paso and South Western...right? Trying to remember where SP tied tracks from San Diego, Ca., into their mainline. The tracks that made up the San Diego and Arizona Eastern. That would be Niland, CA, where the SP/SDA&E remnants that UP kept still tie in. South to Calexico/Mexicali and west from El Centro to Plaster City and the USG plant.
BarstowRick That be true! El Paso and South Western...right? Trying to remember where SP tied tracks from San Diego, Ca., into their mainline. The tracks that made up the San Diego and Arizona Eastern.
And the line through Calexico / Mexicali was the original Main, looping through Mexico as the Inter-California to Yuma - part of the r-o-w is still visible from Araz Jct. The SP Trainline magazine had a great issue covering the area a couple of years back.
SP657E44And the line through Calexico / Mexicali was the original Main, looping through Mexico as the Inter-California to Yuma - part of the r-o-w is still visible from Araz Jct. The SP Trainline magazine had a great issue covering the area a couple of years back.
Interesting reference from 1905 in this link to the line coming south from (now) Araz junction, which was then El Rio. The "old railroad line" will show up on certain topographic maps, at highest scale. The Hanlon's location is just north of Nuevo Algodones, BC, Mexico.
EDIT: Even better information in the May 1921 Southern Pacific Bulletin.
desertdog Pete-M3 (6-16) and UPRR11 (6-17): Concerning the Richmond, TX bridge problem near Houston., I haven’t heard anything about the bridge of late. Is it open again by now, almost August?
Pete-M3 (6-16) and UPRR11 (6-17):
Concerning the Richmond, TX bridge problem near Houston., I haven’t heard anything about the bridge of late. Is it open again by now, almost August?
Well, the Brazos River bridge at Richmond has an interesting story to tell.
The bridge was initially closed on June 2nd when one of the bridge's eastern piers began to sink, presumably due to the instability and some scouring of the soft clay beneath the very swollen river.
It reopened three weeks later on the morning of June 22nd, with the westbound Sunset Limited returning to its normal routing that night (it had been detouring over the BNSF on a longer route around the bridge).
However, UP's Brazos River woes weren't over yet. One week later, on June 30th, UP crews noticed that another one of the bridge's piers had begun to sink (the pier opposite the first failed pier, under the same truss). Amtrak was immediately detoured again.
But the bridge stayed open for freight trains under speed restrictions until July 2nd, when UP had managed to get heavy equipment back to the bridge site to work (or perhaps when the pier finally sank enough that they couldn't run trains over it).
Either way, the bridge was closed for another three weeks while crews worked around the clock to fix the second pier (picture taken on the night of July 9th).
The bridge was finally returned to service on the morning of July 23rd. Since then most reroutes have subsided (though some backlog from the complicated reroutes across Texas may still exist as of this writing) and traffic has returned to normal through Richmond.
ChrisHouston, TX
The Southwest Chief and the Sunset Limited are on each dispatcher's territory far longer than 60-90 minutes. On the BNSF Transcon it is about 3 hours on each territory. Some shorter territories, like the Barstow Terminal, of course have Amtrak on them for much shorter time frames.
Dispatcher plans their moves 4-8 hours in advance and that plan is constantly changing, a single platform on double track and no nearby crossovers aren't a problem 99% of the time. That 1% can be a major pain in the butt however. Dealing with it is just part of the job...its railroading.
SP657E44 ChuckCobleigh And the line through Calexico / Mexicali was the original Main, looping through Mexico as the Inter-California to Yuma - part of the r-o-w is still visible from Araz Jct. The SP Trainline magazine had a great issue covering the area a couple of years back. A10
ChuckCobleigh
Thanks Chuck, I appreciate the heads up.
Curious as to what K.P. just discovered. Let me guess a Metro-Link Las Vegas Gambling train. That would be a great idea. Service to Barstow, Victorville and they could include Hesperia, Ca.
I hope that didn't steal anyone's thunder.
BarstowRickCurious as to what K.P. just discovered. Let me guess a Metro-Link Las Vegas Gambling train. That would be a great idea. Service to Barstow, Victorville and they could include Hesperia, Ca. I hope that didn't steal anyone's thunder.Whisper
Unfortunately, Metrolink is too tied to the agendas and funding of its regional county sponsors to think this far 'out of the box'. The train would require the cooperation of and approval by SANBAG!
Seriously, let's get back to topic ....
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Pete-M3 I'm watching it as I'm writing this. It was just a little past the bridge with an indicated speed of 20 MPH, so there may be a temporary speed restriction, but I really don't know what the normal speed would be. Twenty (or even less over the bridge itself), however, does seem a little slow for a normal speed. Pete
The Brazos River bridge reopened on July 23rd, and Train #1 of that evening was the first Sunset Limited in July to take its normal routing.
And yes, there is still a temporary speed restriction on the bridge there. I don't know how long it'll be in place for.
Before the bridge went out track speed was 60 for the bridge and a curve just east of the bridge. Track speeds drops to 55/45 for the city of Richmond and a curve just west of the bridge.
Chris
Haw, haw, haw now that's funny. Just like I intended it to be.
Good one Mike.
Hi, K.P.,
I admit that I have not spent much time at Maricopa since returning to AZ in 2014, although I do get an occasional chance to drive alongside the Sunset from Casa Grande (and sometimes, Maricopa) to Tucson and back. In any event, I haven't noted the bias you speak of. Hopefully, I can spend more time down that way this fall / winter when the heat and humidity of the monsoon are past. Maybe I can verify one way or the other, although in theory there shouldn't be a bias since both tracks are meant for full two way operation. At least that's supposed to be the point of two-tracking vs. double-tracking.
On a related note, it appears that the Maricopa Amtrak siding is government funded, though not through Amtrak. I personally don't think Amtrak has the money for a crossover, and they would likely be reluctant to improve infrastructure that would largely benefit UP freight operations.
John Timm
Tidbits about Signaling from …
… the Nevada Trip
Part “A” (of A-E)
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 a trip from Southern California to Nevada and back was pursued. On the way back a brief pass by Cima Hill was pursued, but several things caught the eye, and quite a bit of time was consumed. Various aspects of the findings have an application to the Sunset Route.
First, upon arrival, K.P. was surprised that a new cantilever signal bridge had been erected at the east end of the Cima arrangement..
(When it comes to two-mains and a siding, a favorite tactic of UP signal designers seems to be to put the signals of only one end of the siding and the nearest main to that siding UP ON A CANTILEVER STRUCTURE. Why this is done (and NOT the other end too) is a mystery, as there doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.)
Above, the tracks from left to right are the Cima siding, then Mains 1 and 2. For all practical purposes Main 2 is a glorified siding.
For comprehension purposes, about two-thirds of the way west to the end of two-tracks, is a signal situation where Main 1 (left) has absolute signals, but Main 2 (right) has intermediates.
The west end of the Cima NORTH side sidings has east facing westbound mast signals for that siding and Main 1.
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-E)
The intermediate Main 2 signals, especially note the TOP heads only have two lamps each!
And, are number plated.
The midway CP box:
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-E)
At the far western end of two-tracks, at CP C255 (which CP box has NO placard name on either side of the box), the west side eastbound mast signal's lower head has only two lamps.
So, for going into Main 2 at either end is 30 M.P.H.
Last year on a visit to this area, strangely NO PTC antennas were along this whole LA&SL right-of-way. Now, they are very prevalent!
Also, the Cima Hill PTC poles are WOOD, whereas so many on the Sunset Route are metal.
In the last photo above, one can discern just how steep Cima HILL is by the slanting downward of the track left to right.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-E)
Looking at the east westbound signals, are three-color heads over single lamp head, for a bottom either red or flashing red.
The east side of that same CP box has a placard with NO CP name.
Note above, too, the old CP box is still present, with ‘Do Not Remove’ on it!
NO such track arrangements are known to exist or future exist in Arizona on the Sunset Route, Streeter-Arlington in Riverside on the LA&SL, and on the actual Sunset Route in the Bassett area a semi-similar arrangement is in the future. And, of course, up on the Tehachapi Loop area a maverick application of the concept (probably BNSF inspired) is being construction-applied presently.
The present east end of what appears to be two-tracks in the Marne area in the City of Industry (CA) is actually timetabled as sidings. The west eastbound signals at CP AL502 INDUSTRY (formerly the west end of the Marne siding that looks like two-tracks), may have an incorrect installation of heads, and seems to be inconstant with the new Cima and Tehachapi installations. K.P. has not seen the lit signal displays, so can’t really comment with any authority on them.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-E)
To the west, the next siding is Chase. The west end, looking eastbound, the wiring and heads are for going into the siding with a red over flashing red.
K.P. is inclined to believe all the remaining sidings on the Sunset Route two-tracking coverage area will follow that red over flashing red policy to go into a siding. That would be the cheapest and quickest way to conforming to the time limitations of the Positive Train Control law. On the LA&SL territory, around 1986, the line was upgraded and every third siding on so was lengthened. It appears those lengthened sidings are the ones generally getting red over yellow circuitry. An exception is the next siding EAST of Cima. Remember, the cantilever signal and the opposite mast (right) had lower heads with two lamps each, for NOT yellow over flashing red, but yellow over yellow!
We now go down the hill to Kelso.
Got your Monopoly ‘Get out of Jail’ card? Check this rather unscrupulous scene!
Speed limit sign behind a fence, with compacted together speed limit signs as if you can slow down and stop on a dime! And, that tell your speed sign in the background left. If you are out Kelso way, be one step ahead of the legal croocks.
Finally, the Kelso Main and two sidings with its eastern CP in the distance:
It is bad economic timing to force PTC on the railroads. As said previously in this series, K.P. believes UP will just upgrade the signaling on the last 100 miles or so in Arizona and some loose ends in California instead of two-track, and that signal upgrade may set back two-tracking for years. It is always possible in lieu of that UP might just two-track the remaining part of the Sunset Route, but that seems unlikely.
This will end the basic portion of the series; however, a number of Sections follow.
Second Section
Ever See a Perceived Problem and Decide NOT …
… to Call the “UP” Grade Crossing Hotline?
In the office a low type car was seen on aerials, on an abandon UP line! Even the grade crossing, still with cantilever flashers, was paved over. Surely, UP would be interested in recovering a lost piece of rolling stock!
That ‘lost’ car on aerials was found to be actually still there, and had not been moved!
And, then the shocker! A live train arrived!
A tourist outfit apparently owns the abandon section of track, or at least leases it. And, their train just happened by, to its end of the line, while K.P. was photographing what aerials had shown.
Continued ...
Third Section
K.P. later went to investigate the seen train.
At the station:
And then it took off on another roundtrip!
Fourth Section
The place has other equipment on site too!
And a teaser for those interested …
Those rates are subject to change.
All this because of a seemingly abandoned freight car not far from a grade crossing!
Continued …
Fifth Section
A Dilemma
That was in Nevada. Just a day or so ago a colleague informed me that a similar operation in Southern California has a major court battle because Metrolink (the Southern California Regional Rail Authority) wants to relay long gone track and run commuter trains to Santa Paula from the Saugus area. Trouble is a tourist outfit runs trains on part of that line! There are a lot of branch lines off the Sunset Route, some abandoned, other barely used. Might those lines be the next target of some commuter agency? In court arguments, the tourist outfit says people and businesses moved to the area because of the tourist outfit, and would be hurt if they lost in court. That whole thing seems to be an impossible situation (and send shockwaves through similar tourist operations).
MikeF90 in his Saturday, June 11, 2016 post mentioned Metrolink’s long range plans are to two-track the Burbank Jct. area to CP BALBOA (in the M.P. 25 area) because of too many grade crossings. Rebuilding the controversial line to Santa Paula would add trains to that Burbank Jct. to CP BALBOA section, and make a second main more valuable and likely.
It is unknown if anywhere on (or near) the Sunset Route a like impossible matter looms or will loom. But, K.P. envisions the single-track Sunset Route between El Monte and Los Angeles eventually being wanted by commuter interests. You know, that’s the line that soon will be laid within the San Gabriel Trench. If commuter interests end up buying it someday K.P. bets UP will make out like a bandit and get a free third track on the LA&SL between Pomona and Los Angeles. Of course, UP would retain trackage rights on that potential future commuter line. Now, that sounds like a win-win situation! Time will tell, though.
Sixth Section
The Bottom of Cima Hill …
… and a Time Warp
Across from the Kelso Depot on the LA&SL, between Las Vegas (NV) and Barstow (CA), presently is a bunch of old signals and CP boxes, and it has been a year since the new signals were activated.
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