Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironhorseman Trouble was President Roosevelt spent the years leading up to Pearl Harbor tearing down our military. We couldn’t respond with troops that month if we wanted to because all the new recruits spent their time drilling with broom sticks pretending to shoot transport trucks with the word “tank” painted on the side. The military was in a sad state in December 1941, especially the Navy after they were bombed.[
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QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Hi Mookie, GW's mentality dosnt scare me anywhere near as much as that of the people he surrounded himself with. Rumsfield would look right at home in a dove grey uniform and jackboots, and acts as if he is! I voted for ole Geroge, because I felt this country needed a change. Had 9/11 not happened, I really belive things would be different. (yes, big understatment) But, after watching the folks around the president, I am not to sure they wouldnt have invented something that would allow them to proceed on the same course. I dont vote a party line, I tend to vote for the person I feel can best do the job. And, if you look carefully, all throughout American history, brief as it is, when we find ourselves in situtations like this, quite often a dark horse appears, and gains popular support. Or, the least likely people step up, and address the crisis head on. Truman was one of those, as was Kennedy and Regan. Carter was one too, although he hasnt received the acclaim in the press he deserves. Oliver, I noticed you seem to not want to offend anyone? Guess what, here, its OK to say what you want and what you mean, weather it offends someone or not. Note Michael,(rrnut) and I seem to agree on some things, but not others? Thats one of the greatest things about this country, that both he and I, having what each belives is a valid point of view, can, on a public forum, debate our positions and viewpoints, without fear of a goverment agency taking us away for not following the "offical" position of the goverment. My concern is that, when faced with a stagnent economy, quite often goverments go looking for a cause to unite their people under.
QUOTE: Hitler did this well with the German people. Roosevelt did it better with the American people, never in history will you ever see such a transformation in a country than the year following Pearl Habor.
QUOTE: America became a tremendous industrial machine, the likes of which have never been seen before, and never will bee seen again.
QUOTE: For America, 9/11 has become the catalyst that is now allowing certain elements in our goverment to change the basic way our goverment runs, and remove or change some of the laws and customs that allow Americans to enjoy the privacy and personal security that has been the hallmark or our Constitution. Sorta like the Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem witch hunts. There wasnt too many people who failed to confess in either instance. Of course, there wasnt any witches, or heritics for that matter, but when you apply a branding iron to certain places on the human body a few times, after a while, the person will confess to what ever you want them to, if only to get you to stop.
QUOTE: Gene Hackman had the perfect line in the movie Crimson Tide, " if you stick a cattle prod up their butt, you can teach a horse to deal cards" I am not too sure that America isnt that far away from another Salem witch hunt. Thoses currently in power strike me as people not above doing a little "prodding" or "inquiring" of their own, if for no other reason, to justify their actions. They are quietly and carefully, in the name of national security, and under the guise of a "war on terrorism" doing away with the very laws that keep them, the goverment, out of the American citizens personal lives. And, like with the witch hunts, quite a few of us know it is wrong, we know there are no witches, but are too afraid of losing what we have, or being accused of witchcraft ourselves, to say anything about it. Most people are afraid of cattle prods and branding irons. With todays technology, it isnt to hard to imagine that keeping tabs on the citizens wont become even easier or faster, but it bothers me to no end that I will, at some point, have to register for a internal passport. One of the basic precepts of all of our laws it that you are innocent until proven guilty. Part of that concept means the police have to gather and assemble enough evidence first, before they can charge a person with a crime. So, if I am innocent first, what does my goverment need with my fingerprint? I have yet to be charged with a crime, and until I am, they have no right to it.
QUOTE: It wont be long before a national DNA sample program shows up.
QUOTE: One side of that is it will allow crimes to be solved quicker, but the other side of the subject is that it allows tremendous invasion of privacy, and can lead to horrible abuse. What if, at some point, someone in the goverment decides that people with certain genitic markers tend to produce children more prone to commiting crimes? We have their fingerprints and DNA on file, picking them up isnt a problem, but what do we do with them? Forbid them the right to have children? Sterilize them? Expell them from the New World Order? Or will they somehow just dissapear? Think that could never happen in America?
QUOTE: Guess what, it already happened. In the 1920s through the 1950s, under the guise of a public health care program, the US Goverment Dept of Public Health not only allowed, but helped infect a black comunity in the rual south that suffered a plague of syphilis. Part of the premise and justification was that blacks tend to suffer STDs more than other groups, and by allowing and encouraging this plague, the researchers had live human subjects to study over the course of their lifetimes. This also allowed the researcher to study the lifestyles of the victims, in the hope that it would help to prove that blacks were imoral in their behaviour and lifestyles. Two concepts that any reasonable, intelligent person knows to be false. But, because most of the people in that comunity could not read or write, they were ignorant of what was being done to them. Scared yet? You should be. Dont think it could happen again? Just blink. Kevin's anology to a run a way train is closer to the truth than we know . Once we set foot on this path, it will be very hard to change direction, so we must derail it now, while we have the chance.
QUOTE: By this, I dont mean vote for anyone else other than Bush, blindly changing leaders out of fear will do as much damage as doing nothing. But we need to be very careful about what new powers we give our goverment, and what rights we give up, in the name of national security. And, if things like what happened in that small southern town bother you as much as it bothers me, then get your butt out from in front of your computer this election, and vote. As far out there as it sounds, you may not have too many chances left to do so again. Ed
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QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Hi Michael, No, she ended up going home to him. Bad habits are hard to break, and some people seem to be born to be victims. Maybe I didnt consult with them before taking action, but sitting there, with my wife and my daughters looking first at the couple, then at me, with that "so what are you going to do?" look in their eyes, I realized that, if I did nothing, then all that I had taught my daughters about how men should treat women, and people should treat people was wasted. And looking at a woman with a nice rosey handpring glowing on the side of her face, with one child sitting there in tears of fear and embarassement, the other hiding under the next table, the choice was easy. I knew I could, at the least, be arrested for assualt. Lucky me, no one could find the guy, and his wife refused to press the issue. But, and here is the big difference... I, and I alone would suffer the consequences of my actions. No one else's son or daughter would die, or be imprisioned because I smacked down a bully. Your are correct, we shouldnt allow bullies to thrive. And as individuals, responsible only to ourselves, we should take action when faced with them. But as a nation, no. And sorry if I made it seem we attacked the civilian population in Iraq. Yes, ancillary deaths do happen, its the nature of the beast, but I doubt any American serviceman caused such death on purpose. On the other hand, the *** and the Imperial Japanese Army were intent on conquering the world by force of might, killing civilans just meant less prisioners of war to feed later. We should be intent on conquering the world with our economic might, not our military might. Because, unless other people want or need what we have to offer, they will never accept it, especially if we cram it down their throats. You can choke someone on freedom. She did, after all, walk away from police who offered her a safe haven, and went right back to the person who slapped her. I think I didnt make it quite as clear as I wanted to. Yes, Saddam, needed to go, as do many, many other dictators world wide. What I was trying to get across was, who gets to pick and choose what dictator goes, and which one stays? If the dictator is useful to the US, he stays, if not, we invade? There isnt much of a grey area here, wrong is wrong, no matter how much oil you sell to Exxon, or how much cocaine you smuggle into the US. If you are going to redress one wrong, then you have to redress them all, equally across the board, with no exceptions. So, if we are going to be the morality police in Iraq, freeing the oppressed, then we better get it in gear, and start removing the rest of the despots and dictators worldwide. Are you willing to send in the Marines every time we dont like a countries politics or leaders? To follow your anology about spanking a child, do you routinely swat you kid because he might, at a future date, do something bad? Preemptive spanking? Preemptive war? Or, do you meter out punishment, based on the severity of the offense, after the child does something wrong, in the hopes that the child will remember the punishment later, when faced with the same choices or behaviour? Whack em first has never been a very productive parenting tool, nor a productive national policy. Didnt work for the Japanese, or the Germans, wont work for the US either. You dont smack your kid when he walks by the cookie jar, because you dont want him stealing the cookies, or you think he might do so later, all that does is teach him dad smacks you when dad wants to, he learns no useful lesson. But, if you told him not to take the cookies till after dinner, then find him later in the kitchen, stuffing cookies in his mouth before dinner, then you are justified in punishing him, he knew the risk, and knows the punishment is due, and he learns he should do what dad says, or get smacked. My point is, we, as a nation, cant enforce our version of right and wrong outside of our borders, unless we enforce it everywhere, worldwide, with no exceptions. There can be no selective enforcement, no slack given those who we feel owe us, or those we can use to our benefit, anymore than thoses we have no use for. Its either kick all their butts, or kick none of them, until someone throws the first punch, and then we should stomp that one persons butt. Selectively freeing oppressed people in strategic and economicaly useful countires only makes us look like the very bullies we publicly proclaim to be removing, we become just as evil and bad, just as oppresive and repressive as the dictators we topple. We become the invading monsters, not the saviours of the world. Who set us up as the worlds policemen, who empowered us to free the world, who handed us the sword to smite the evil? We forged that paticular sword ourselves,and its a mighty and powerful weapon, capable of creating peace, but, like all swords, more capable of creating pain. Its a sword we should wield very, very carefully, and one we should draw only when faced with no other option. Sorta like slapping down a bully who is terrorizing children, and just hit a woman, you better make sure you are totally justified in doing so, or be ready to pay the price and suffer the consenquences. In this case, the price is the lives of American servicemen and women, and the consenquences are, we look more like territorital seeking bullies than the goverment we removed. For me, the price is too high, and the consequences to much like a insult to the years my dad and my uncle spent defending this country and its ideals, for me to comfortably sit by and keep quite. I see and understand Michael's point, and it is a very valid one. Do you sit by and watch bad people do bad things? No, I didnt. But if you are going to take action, make sure that whatever action you take solves the problem, instead of adding to it. And you better make sure the people you are saving, want to be saved in the first place. If they dont, you have lost already, before you ever set foot in their country. And all the deaths and sacrifices are in vain, because in the end, nothing really changes, except the name of the dictator. I suggest we all go look in the mirror, and see how we look in the new world order policemans hat we have put on. I got a really bad feeling we wont like the fit in a few years. Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Thats my whole point, espeefoamer, It wasnt up to us, the Germans, Canadians or the Briti***o get rid of Saddam, it was up to the people of Iraq to do so. If they had wanted our help, and asked for it through the United Nations, that would have been different.
QUOTE: We can not allow ourselves the luxuery of assuming the role of morality police for the entire world. If we decide that we somehow have the right to enforce our version of morals, of right and wrong, and our version of what is and is not "legal" then we have reduced ourselves to the same level as the very dictators and evil leaders we attack. Thats the same mind set that allowed Hitler to sway the german people into thinking their version of a new world order justified the carnage of WWII. You remember the "police action" in Vietnam? Didnt work out too well, did it? And thats the delima of being the good guys. We have the military might to create a new world order by force, if we wanted to. But the very laws we live by, the very foundation of our country, the Constitution, forbids us from doing so.
QUOTE: It allows us to raise and maintain a standing military force for the DEFENSEof the United States only. It make no provision for that force to be used to enforce our laws anywhere other than inside the United States.
QUOTE: Just because we have to power to do so dosnt mean we have the right to! America is the place where others come to, not something we can export or force on the rest of the world.
QUOTE: We should be leaders by example. And if we are not willing to live by, and follow our own laws, why should we expect other to respect us? If this war is an example of the current American policy, then we are in deep trouble. Ask the young man, I belive his name is Oliver Trozk? Ask him if he would like the US to invade Croatia, and set up a new, mini US goverment for them. Bet he would chose to set up his own goverment, with a system his people are used to, designed around the customs of the people who live there. Nothing, absolutly nothing, gives us the right to force our viewpoints or form of goverment upon any other people, regardless of how evil we think they are. Nothing! We can only defend ourselves from them, when they attack us.
QUOTE: Thats the very concept this country is founded on, the right to chose for yourself the form of goverment to live under.
QUOTE: Thats the bedrock of our way of life, that here, America, is where you come, when you want to live free. You have to come here to get it, we dont box it up and ship it overseas. Its not a export comodity, its not for sale, and you cant force it on anyone who dosnt want it in the first place. By attacking, and then forcing our form of goverment on others, we become the very monsters we despise. And our laws forbid us from doing that very thing.
QUOTE: And, lest we all forget, this is the only place where we can have this very discussion, on a open, public forum, with out worring about the KGB, or the morality police, religious police, or the military police force kicking in our doors sometime in the night.
QUOTE: Do you really want the US Armed Services being forced into the role of the morality police? Dosnt that make us as "bad" as the other guys? Do we want to become the "democratic dictators" of the 21st century? We have placed ourselves in the horrid position of showing the rest of the world we intend to now lead by force, not by example. Do what we demand, or we will take over your country. Not a very comfortable suit to wear, that of the worlds policeman. And I am still waiting for someone to justify our invading a country, waging war on a people, who havent attacked us. Seriously. Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Hi Michael, (rrnut) Up to a point, I agree, bullies work and survive because of the fear and apathy factor. I myself have spent a evening in the custody of Houston's finest because I took offense to a man slapping his wife in a Lubys cafateria, in front of my wife and children and his own kids. End result of our discussion? was his face in his plate. Guess he didnt like wearing his dinner, or having mashed potatoes in his ears. I felt fully justified in taking action, but there is a big difference in putting a bully in his place, and invading a country. Because, when you put a individuel in their place, your actions affect only that person, and those directly involved. When you invade a country, you involve the entire world, and your actions affect everyone. And, if we use the bully critiera as justification, then most of the middle east countries better shape up, because, by our standards, they are almost all regimes of bullies, with no regard for human rights or civil liberities. In some places, camels have more rights than their women. We could invade almost every South American country to boot! You know, Cuba is only 90 miles away.... And on the cultural note, some of the worlds most beautiful art and craftsmanship, along with some very holy relics, come from what is now Iraq. They had a written language, and higher mathmatics, while most of the people in Europe were still nomadic tribes wearing untanned fur hides and speaking in grunts. As to our form of goverment being superior, well, from our viewpoint, yes, to us it is. To the rest of the world? Well, if it is so superior, why hasnt every other country adopted it?
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Lets see if this adds a little perspective to it... I have friends who lived in Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. We Americans for some reason still seem to want to apply American culture and American values to these people.
QUOTE: This, from people who, by our standards, were oppressed and terrorized. I fear we are walking into the same problem we faced in Vietnam, where you cant tell the good guys from the bad guys. And, at the very first chance, a strong, powerful leader will appear, and proclaim himself leader, and they will follow. They never have, and most likely never will, live under any form of goverment faintly resembling ours. They truly have no concept of how we live, vote, work or play, and most likely wouldnt want to know.
QUOTE: To them, we are the backward, unclutured alien people. They like living in tribes, they have done so for thousands of years, else they would have changed by now. I am still unclear what empowers us to decide who leads what country, and why?
QUOTE: Isnt that their choice? In fact, isnt that one of the reasons our country was formed, because we didnt want a king on the other side of the ocean deciding who leads us, and what laws we lived under? Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Hi Dave, In WWII, there was no organized Jewish state or goverment, had there been, the entire war would have taken a totally different tack. Your correct, no Jewish sucide bomber blew up German schoolyards. Had the jews been organized, and had a state or goverment to guide them, would they have gone to that extreme? Dont know, but when faced with racial extermination, people and goverments go to extremes. I am of jewish decent, grandpa was a German Jew who came to America just before WWI. Dad was first generation American. Religion has played no major part in our lives, gramps didnt leave germany because of religious issues, he felt the reasons leading up to WWI were wrong, and didnt aggree with the German goverments action. Because he was a merchant marine, he knew he would be conscripted into the german navy. Blunty put, he didnt want to fight a war he didnt belive in, on the side he knew would lose. Instead, he spent WWI in a prisioner of war camp outside of Alvin, Texas. As far as I am concerned, the Isralies and Palestinies are fighting over a stupid issue, on and over a piece of land that from a comerical point of view is totally useless. The fact that both religions hold the same city as the holiest of holy should encourage their cooperation, but it never works that way. And thats exactally why our constitution requires the seperation of church and state, so we dont participate in a religious war as a matter of national policy. As for the sucide bombers, when one blows up a American schoolyard, or a Metro bus, then lets go kick butt. But better, should't we be there trying to make peace? After all, we did help the jews form and hold their country, and its not like the palestinies are asking for a really rich, valuable piece of the world. About the only place more desolate would be North Dakota, and I am not real sure tey would want it. In no way is this condoning their actions, but its just about the only weapon they have. And as long as they feel that they have no choice, and no allies, or a world court that can and will enforce policies designed to provide them a secure state, then they will continue this course. And this is what happens when goverments and countries are formed around a religious base, you either belong to the major faith, or you dont, and if you dont, your a second class citizen. We have seen how well that second class thing worked here, yes? As for comparing the invasion of Iraq to the Nazi blitz or poland, well, Hitler sold it to his people, and tried to sell it to the world as germany only accquiring a buffer state to keep all of the rest of the world out. No on bought it then, either. Our goverment is selling this as the US freeing an oppressed people under the rule of a despot. Isnt there a few other evil dictators we need to remove? Quite a few come to mind, but oddly, those countires dont sit on a huge oil field. So, if we went to Iraq to "free" the people, when, exactlly, did they ask us for help? Which American schoolyard did Saddam have blown up? And I am quite sure that when all of this is over, BP Petro, Dutch Royal Shell, Exxon Mobil and Phillips will gladly pack up all their bags and exit the country, giving the Iraq goverment all the facilities and production. Of course, i am still waiting for pigs to get pilot liscenses, too. Stay Frosty, Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Pop, Couldnt agree with you more, an tour of duty is a great way to season a leader. I note that most of the really good leaders have had military service under their belt. More surprised that some how, GW hasnt gotten the NSA, or the CIA to produce a bunch of "throw down" WMDs. And what scares me most is we, the people, seem to be quite content to let this go on, wether out of fear that 9/11 will happen again, (it will, more surprised it took so long the first time) or plain apathy. Now, I am pretty much a conservative person, but from my perspective, before we go off being the worlds policeman, we ought to try being the worlds peacemakers first. And, just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, how much of the 87 billion dollars we are projected to pump into their economy is going to be spent taking care of the widow/widowers and children of the KIA American servicemen and women? If we can scrape up 87 billion to rebuild Iraq, one would think we could pay our troops just a little better. Stay Frosty, Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Ok, so remind me why we went there?
QUOTE: Because if it wasnt to find and destroy the wepons of mass destruction, then it must have been because...? Other than the WMDs, what did Saddam have that presented a threat to us? Ok, I agree, that mustach was pretty ugly, but going to war over facial hair? If we are now willing to wage war because we dont agree with a poitical system, or because some one might, at a future date, present a threat, then we might as well blow up France, Columbia, and Korea.
QUOTE: Our military should not be a political or economic tool, it should be a defensive force, to protect us from clear and present danger, not from murky, maybe threats made by despots, or possible future threats.
QUOTE: Was Saddam a evil man, who needed to be removed? Sure, but so are many world leaders. Is it now Americas job to decide who is, and isnt allowed to rule other countries? We acted like a policeman who lies to get a search warrant, then kicks in the door, knowing full well what the warrant states is false, and then beats the stuffing out of the person behind the door, because the cop dosnt like them or their views. If we are the worlds policemen, then we just screwed the pooch real bad. So really, if we wernt looking for WMDs, then why did we do this? And if having weapons of mass destruction qualifies you as a target for invaision by the worlds policemen, then France, England, Germany, Korea, China, and India better watch their backs.
QUOTE: We should just go ahead and nuke whats left of the Soviet Union, they have misplaced so much of this stuff they still dont know who has what.
QUOTE: Seriously, I am looking for the criteria that justifies being attacked by the United States of America. Because the only real threat I ever saw from the Iraq goverment was about .03 cents at the pump.
QUOTE: Although, war is good for the economy, it does increase the GNP, and quite a lot of companies, you know, like Colt and Winchester, along with all the companies that supply the products needed to wage war, did and still are making a nice profit from all of this. But I am still looking for a valid reason for invading another country, a reason that dosn't include the words might, maybe or could, but does include the words, "on this date, did declare war on, and did attack the United States of America". Justify invading another country just because we dont like their politics,, Please? Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard My dad was a Chief Petty Officer in the US Navy for 33 years. He saw duty in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. One of the things he stressed to us kids was the fact that the US Armed Services report to, and are commanded by a elected civilan President. In fact, our constitution expressly forbids active military personal from holding the office, and for good reason.
QUOTE: The armed services are there to defend the population, and to follow and enforce the decisions of the civilans who lead our country. They serve us, the John and Jane Does of America. The framers of the constitution understood that having a serving military officer as president could lead to a military dictatorship, and they knew then, as we know now, what that can lead to.
QUOTE: Remember, its a goverment "of the people, for the people, by the people"
QUOTE: The constitution is full of safeguards, the president cant declare war, he, or she, must ask congress to do so. That said, I stated in a post quite a while back that I doubted we would find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
QUOTE: I stated that, in my opinion, the American people had been sold a false bill of goods, and we were going to war for the wrong reason.
QUOTE: Iraq didnt directly attack the Unites States, and going to war with them because they might be a future threat, or migh have aided some radical group was wrong.
QUOTE: I still feel that way today. If we, as a nation, can justify waging war because of supposistions, mights and maybes, if we are willing to attack and kill because we deem them to be a future threat, because they might, later on, become a danger to us, then we, as a nation and a people, have become as base and low as those we proclaim our enemies.
QUOTE: Whats the difference between the Nazi blitzkrieg in Poland, and the colalition forces deployment in Iraq? We blitzed a country that hadent directly attacked us, and did so with tremendously superior military might, to gain control of a nation that furthers our political position in the middle east, and gives us, in essence, a "new territory" from which we can exert our influence with military threat and economic might.
QUOTE: Hitler overan Poland, to give the third riech a new territory from which to wage war on France, and the rest of Europe, and to give them a country and people to exploit and exert their military influnce from. One of the major differences between this country and every other country on the face of the planet was, untill now, the fact that our armed services were intended to be tools of defense, to protect our nation and our allies when attacked, a wepon to be used only when all other options had been exhausted. Our was a defensive military, designed and formed to protect us, not an offensive tool designed to expand our borders or effect political change in other countries.
QUOTE: From the rest of the worlds perspective, there wouldnt appear much difference between this war on terror, and the *** blitzkrieg, except for the flags flown by the winners.
QUOTE: I didnt agree, and to this date, still dont agree with why we are there, but in one matter I stand proud... The service men and women of the American Armed Services are without equal. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. When the order arrived, they picked up their kits, got in line, and went. No questions asked. They did what one would expect a professional military to do, follow orders and do you duty, and they did it in the manner we expected them to, with pride, honor and duty and sacrifice. The men and women of the United States Armed Services deserve our respect and our gratitude for their service, even if you dont agree with why the commander in chief sent them there. One of the other things my dad taught me was, we, the American people, have something almost no other country in the world has, the ability to completly change our goverment every four years.
QUOTE: That power rest with us, the civilians, not with the military, and rightly so. We, the citizens, get to decide who leads us, and if we dont like the current leaders, we can change them, without worry of military oppression or influence, because the military reports to us, the civilian citizen, through our civilian president, we dont report to them. America posseses without doubt the finest military force in the world, because it is composed of volunteers, those few who willing give their life in defense of a concept written over 200 years ago, but which holds as true today as it did then. The preamble to the Constitution says it all. "We, the people of the United States of America, hold these truths to be self evident..." We, the people... Its your goverment, not theirs.
QUOTE: Its your Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, they work for, and serve you. If all of this distrubes you as much as it has me, then excerise the one tool you, as an American citizen, have total control over, one which, so far, cant be taken away from you. Next time, vote! You, me, Kevin, Mookie, all of us live in a exceptionally unique country, with the mightiest military and economic forces in the world under the control of us, the citizen. We, and we alone, can affect real change in the way our goverment acts and runs, and we should be very careful who we give what powers to, and why. Should we be looking for payback for 9/11? You bet. But we should have gone after the people who did the crime, not their next door neighbors.
QUOTE: Those who served in the past had clear cut goals, to end oppression and agression, to defend those who couldnt defend themselves, to free people so they too, could make choices, even if we didnt agree with the choices they made afterwards. Those who serve now should have the same goals, and have done their upmost in service to their country. We should salute them, honor them, and welcome them home. We should bury the fallen with all the honors they earned and deserve, but remind their boss they died as a result of political incompentence, not dereliction of duty or the might of a enemy.
QUOTE: We are at a perilous point in the history of our country, out of fear, or apathy, we are slowly handing control of it over to a select few, who dont always act in the interest of all of us, the citizens. This country was created by rebellion, built by hard work and honest reguard for the rights of the indivdual, not the power of a king, or the power of a general. The only reason it even exsist is because you, the American Citizen, says it does. Its your country, its my country, my Dad spent 33 years defending the concepts it was created from, and we shouldnt sit by and let any one "party" run it for us. Its ours, not "the goverments" Remember, "We, the people..." Ed
Quentin
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282 I'm not afraid to say I voted for G.W. and plan to again. He doesn't do anything based on 'hollywood popularity polls', he does what he thinks is right and the interns are a lot safer around him , too[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Ask the young man, I belive his name is Oliver Trozk? Ask him if he would like the US to invade Croatia, and set up a new, mini US goverment for them. Bet he would chose to set up his own goverment, with a system his people are used to, designed around the customs of the people who live there. Nothing, absolutly nothing, gives us the right to force our viewpoints or form of goverment upon any other people, regardless of how evil we think they are. Nothing! We can only defend ourselves from them, when they attack us.
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