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QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Your circlular logic is astounding. In one post, you lable the "media" as liberal, biased and misleading, then, later in the same post, quote CNN as a impecable source of news, and recommend we watch a made for TV documentery on the Discovery channel. Then you refer to the UN sanctions as a joke, but then used the exact same sanctions as justification for invading another country. So, which are they, jokes or justification? You stated that the people of Afganistan, Iraq, Iran are all the same, yet later, expressed indignant at your version of racisim down south. "Their all in it together"...yeah, just run your fanny over there and thell them that. So, because the wardrobe of choice over there is a turban and a robe, instead of jeans and tee shirts, its ok to lump all the people of that region together as a "them"? All them ragheads are the same, right? All them sandrats gotta be terrorist, right? After all, they are all the same, right? You followed that superbly racist "them" statement by directing us to read your works on Linclon, who was dealing and concerned with an American civil war, and American racisim, as a way to justify the invasion, in modern times, of a foreign country. Utterly and completly astounding. David Duke could have used you as a spin doctor. Rationalization taken to the level of a art form! You sound just like my 17 year old daughter, who loves to use other people's bad actions or mistakes to justify her own. "if they hadnt done that, I wouldnt have had to ...."(fill in the blank with just about any stupid stunt or silly excuse a17 year old uses) Real plain and real simple. Yes, we are the worlds policemen, I whole heartedly agree. And, as the worlds policemen, we are watched by everyone else. We are the leaders of the free world, both in military might, and economic power. We consume their goods, and still feed the rest of the world. So, as the worlds policemen, we should lead by example... Nothing we do in the public arena should dim the light Lady Liberity holds so high, and which promises so much. And right now, to the rest of the world, we look like the bad guys. Simply put, there are not, and have not been any WMDs in Iraq for years. If there was, the current administration would have plastered photographs of them on billboards nation wide to cover their fannys. The are not there now, were not there before we invaded. We publicly claimed they were there, and used that as a excuse to invade, regardless of other reasons, real or imagined. And publicly, we have had to state that we were wrong, there is no WMDs in Iraq. Show me a working nucelar weapon found in Iraq in the last five years. Show me a 55 gallon drum of a usuable Bio weapon found in Iraq in the last five years. Show me recent photos of the facilities to produce either one, taken in the last two years. Do that, please... But dont take my country to war based solely on the fear of what might happen, or suppositions about something that could be built, in a few years. Dont create widows and orpahans, killing Amreica's finest young men and women, by jumping at shadows, because you are afraid of something that dosnt yet exsist. You still dont seem to realize how utterly and completly this changes the worlds view of America, her people, and her goverment. We didnt, and never can, win the "war on terror", especially when we act as terrible as the terrorist, and invent such nonsencial phrases as "the war on terror" to justify revenge, especially when we sought such revenge on the wrong people, in the wrong country, for acts they didnt commit. To hide the fact that this is revenge for 9/11 makes us out as to be as cowardly as the terrorist. You want revenge for 9/11? Then get Bin Laden, and destroy and conquer the country that currently allows him the freedom he and his religious fanatics denied the victims in the Towers and the Pentagon. Attack the enemy, not his next door neighbor. Want to make an example to the rest of the world that, that when you jack with America, on American soil, we jack right back? Then do what we, as Americans, have been taught to do, the right thing, for the right reasons. In regards to your former room mate... Besides India, Germany, Russia, England and Mexico, I have been there too, visiting my niece, who was in South Africa, tracking whale migration for the Texas A&M marine mammal study. Her and her husband are now the managers of the Raptor Education and Rehibilitation program for the State of Alabama. Yeah, another classic red neck state like Texas. You know, all us southerners are the same, uneducated, racist red necks, who dont know nuthing except how to make moonshine, right? I was guessing about your roomate, but from what I saw there, it is still segerated, no matter what the Discovery Channel and National Geographic shows say. It most likely will be gone in one more generation. They are making tremendous progress, by undoing generations of fear and misconceptions about each others cultures and what they want South Africa to become. We Americans could learn a lesson or two from them. Of course, us southern folks are too dull and dumb to grasp the Captain America, mill worked falls into a vat of molten steel and emerges as...comicbook version of the rest of the worlds politics. We are just dumb enough to want to make America, and what she stands for, real. Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironhorseman QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman Here We go, And heres what i have to say, and i took this from Ed Show me the Weapons of mass Distructioin, and I will Gladly change my point of view, What i don't want is some Doanld Rumesfeld Shilly-shally Dilly-dally answer uhh...weell...WMd's...hmmm..oh look a shiny dog. Or george W Bush and his inability to admit he was wrong, because he is so G** D*** Bull headed, You can only hope you will never be as bull headed as him I tell you Ironhorseman, there propoganda has sunk into your brain... They've engulfed you. Please for everything Holy and human,Tell me you don't really believe what you were saying, and that was just a crap cut and paste job. Because i cant stand Idiotic people, Anyone who thinks Benjamin Franklin invented the light bulb, isn't even worthy enough to be on the ballot. (YES SIR! GW thought Franklin invented the lightbulb, thew one over your head) That to me is so stupid, I could have told you 6 minutes after being born that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb... I can't eblieve he said that, I think he is almost at the point where he is Intellectually inept! May God have pitty on his soul. Nope, propaganda has not engulfed. Remeber, you are the one in Canada. I've heard they filter the news up there. Bush did the right thing. Iraq, Afghanistan, they're all the same. They both once supported terrorism. I don't know where you got that part about Bu***hinking Franklin invented the light bulb. So what? At least we have a decent, honest, and truth-telling president in office for a change. If he honestly thought Ben Franklin invented the light bulb then he honestly thought that. He'll not try and invent some lie as to why he said that but admit he'd made a mistake (if he really did say that). He probably knows it was Edison he just made a mistake. But make no mistake: Saddam needed to be removed and you'll find that the people of Iraq were grateful for that.
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman Here We go, And heres what i have to say, and i took this from Ed Show me the Weapons of mass Distructioin, and I will Gladly change my point of view, What i don't want is some Doanld Rumesfeld Shilly-shally Dilly-dally answer uhh...weell...WMd's...hmmm..oh look a shiny dog. Or george W Bush and his inability to admit he was wrong, because he is so G** D*** Bull headed, You can only hope you will never be as bull headed as him I tell you Ironhorseman, there propoganda has sunk into your brain... They've engulfed you. Please for everything Holy and human,Tell me you don't really believe what you were saying, and that was just a crap cut and paste job. Because i cant stand Idiotic people, Anyone who thinks Benjamin Franklin invented the light bulb, isn't even worthy enough to be on the ballot. (YES SIR! GW thought Franklin invented the lightbulb, thew one over your head) That to me is so stupid, I could have told you 6 minutes after being born that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb... I can't eblieve he said that, I think he is almost at the point where he is Intellectually inept! May God have pitty on his soul.
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QUOTE: Originally posted by Scottydog Ironhorseman, I have printed out your postings to study them and I will get back to you on some things. But for right now Bush's being in the National Guard, well let's look at a few things. The Vietnam war was at it's height, President Johnson made a deliberate decision that no National Guard unit would be used there as there were plenty of draftees. Consequently, at that time there were three ways of getting out of the draft [1] Flee to Canada [2] Claim conscientious objector status and do jail time [3] Join the National Guard if you could get in Dubya had powerful friends who jumped him to the top of a long waiting list to get into the Texas Guard. Oh yeah, he was well prepared to defend the borders of Texas, I think, but not overseas.
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Ok, I give. The Army is supposed to go blow up their market place, you know, the one that has been there for 15 centuries, so McDonalds can built another set of Golden Arches. Lets bulldoze the mosques, so evanagical christians can set up bible schools. Oh, by the way, did your room mate bother to tell you he most likley lived in a segerated township?
QUOTE: Totally cool for him to be christian, as long as he did so in a black church, in a black township. I noticed National Geographic, and the Readers Digest both forgot to highlight that little piece of information on South Africa, you know, aparthied? Talk about head in the sand politics influenced by apathy. Where were the Americans, and the American way of life, when millions were displaced, and thousands slaughtered, burned and shot while being forced to flee their homes and villages? We, and the rest of the world, sent the in Red Cross.
QUOTE: YeHaw, bet that helped the millions of displaced, starving people, who were being killed because they belonged to the wrong tribe. You noted that you have taken a course in criminal law.
QUOTE: Great. So, if a judge issues a search warrent,(we tell the UN we think he might have WMDs, and the UN sends in inspectors) and the police go looking for whats specified in the warrent, (Un inspectors go looking for wepons of mass destruction) and the police dont find what is specified in the warrent(UN inspectors state no weapons or capabilities to make them were found) are the police justified in kicking in the homeowners door, and stomping his butt just because they think he might, at a future date, get what was specified in the warrent?(Saddam might, at some point in time, accquire some of the capabilities to produce WMDs, so we declare war and invade his country) In other words, kick butt first, based on supposition and guesses, look for hard evidence later?
QUOTE: God, I hope you never become a cop if thats how you feel. You pointed it out yourself. Due process of the law.
QUOTE: Lets see, upholding the law, and enforcing the law are two different functions. Cops uphold the law, courts establish and enforce it. So, when the world court, the UN, said no, dont think we sould do this, we, the worlds cops, said screw you, lets go anyway, and kicked in the door, stomped the homeowners butt, then discovere there wasnt anything inside that justified even knocking on the door, much less executing the warrent.
QUOTE: Wheres IA when you need them. I worked for The Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, for six years, most of that time in the Child Support Division, Enforcement/ Establishment section. Part of that job involved corraling up folks for court ordered DNA testing to prove or establish paternity. Evey single DNA sample in the private company DNA lab we used, was open to all law enforcement agencies, at their request, per state policy. The FBI has access, as do any Federal and State law enforcement agency, down to the local PD. Currently, there are several universities and research firms attempting to map the entire human genome, some funded through federal grants, others through private funds. Yes, when finished, it will be one of the greatest medical achivements of all time. It can also, in the wrong hands, be the greatest attack on humanity ever. The national DNA program and a ID program based on it, is not fiction, and its a lot closer than you think, dont doubt for a minute that Rumsfield, or that Nazi heading the FBI wouldnt hesitate to ask for it, if they though it would fly or they could sell it as part of national defense and the war on terrorism. The entire DNA data base of the lab we used is a part of that program, as are most of the DNA data bases at labs that hold state or federal contracts.
QUOTE: I never said GW was a bad man, just a incompentent president. He jumped before the intelligence was confirmed, and has come up short. He made a calculated gamble, and lost.
QUOTE: I, for one, think that before we declare war, we should have hard, provable, concrete evidence, incoruptable and illrefutable. Cold, hard facts, not suppositions and educated guesses.
QUOTE: And no, I am not a black and white kinda guy. I do see a lot of grey, in areas both political and economic, and in football games. However, in the case of my country declaring war on a country that didnt fire the first shot, and that war being based on maybes and could bes and might haves, then the issue of black and white, for me at least, becomes most important.
QUOTE: When you invade another country, you best be positive right out of the gate that your reason in doing so is right, not only from your point of view, but from the rest of the world's too. We had him back in 91, but he was politicaly useful to a bunch of folks then, so we left him there in power, even sold him some of the weapons he used on his own people later. The word hypocrisy applies here. If he was a threat last year, he was a threat in 91 too. So, only when it becomes politicaly useful to bolster the world cop image, do we suddenly decide he has become bad enough to attack and despose? If thats the case, we should have invaded Germany in 38, and Japan in 40. For that matter, the IRA has guns and bombs, and they have participated in petty terrorism here, so lets invade Ireland. But then again, from a economic standpoint, invading Ireland kinda sucks, they dont have anything we need, except a few leftover Delorens. As for exporting the American culture, that is the domain of the private companies, not a matter of national military policy. If Coke wants to sell the Saudis soda, great. If McDonalds want to sell Iraqis hamburgers and fries, great. If the President, through the Pentagon, wants to force apple pie down their throats, thats not cool. Private enterprise should, and can, export Americana, the US Goverment, by means of military force, shouldnt. Any when someone has been hungry for a few weeks, and an American GI walks up with a box of Micky Dees fries and a big mac, then ole Ronald make the best food in the entire universe. When your that hungry, you could care less where the food comes from, even if the guy handing you the food is the reason your hungry in the first place. Japan did adopt a constitution similar to ours, of course, the fact that we wrote it, and happened to be occuping their country at the time might have had something to do with that. Read the terms of their surrender, provisions for it are included in it. After two A bombs, they would have signed pretty much anything we wanted. And yes, the Marshal plan helped rebuilt Europe too, but then, we were the folks with the money, men and the guns and a few A bombs on the side, so... Funny thing about history books, the guys who win the wars usually get to write the story. Classic example is the Alamo myth. American history books tend to portray Santa Anna as the evil, blood thirsty bumbling general bent on stealing the Texicans land, and he massacared the gallant defenders of Texas liberity at the Alamo. Fact was, he was the Emperor, and the legal land owner, in addition to being an accomplished military leader, on his way to evict the tennant settlers who broke a legal, binding contract, and revolted against their lawful ruler and landlord.
QUOTE: The defenders at the Alamo, who are often portrayed in extrodinary heroic context, did by sheer luck, courage and grit, managed to slow Santa Anna down enough for Sam Houston the re group his forces, which had been so ill trained and un prepared as to be useless. Luck again helped Houston, Santa Anna happened to camp at San Jacinto, awaiting re supply ships from Galveston Bay, when Houston and his army struck a surprise attack, simply by walking up through the head high salt marsh grass, and surprising the Mexican army at dawn. Yet, according to the history books currently approved for use in Texas schools, Sam Houston chased Santa Anna down at San Jacinto, and the defenders at the Alamo sacrificed them selves for Houston. The books also state Santa Anna had donned a uniform of a lesser rank, in a attempt to hide who he was, when the diary of his aide shows that he, Santa Anna's aid, had placed his uniform jacket over Santa Anna, because the general didnt have time to gather up his own when they fled. Santa Anna had broken his ankle, and his aide was trying to keep him warm. Oddly enough, Sam Houston himself was wounded in the leg, and was being held up by his own aides when Santa Anna was captured.
QUOTE: Did the Alamo defenders see themselves as maryters, gallant defenders of Texas liberity? Maybe, but they died because Houston didnt have a army to send in to help, and by the time Travis realized that fact, it was too late to leave. Every movie shows, and every text book states that Travis and Bowie died fighting to the end, yet Travis died in the early stages of the fight, on the first day, in the first advance of the Mexican army. Bowie died ill in bed, he spent almost the entire time there, he was so sick he was carried into the Alamo on stretcher to begin with. Santa Anna did allow the majority of those who wished to leave the right to do so, before the battle began,and escorted them away, releasing them several miles distant. Wives, servants and slaves were allowed to go, and keep this in mind, in Mexico, slavery was illegal, in Texas, common. There were suvivors too, although popular myth claims the entire populace were killed. Several wives chose to stay, and were spared, all know combatants were not, they had been pre warned that no quarter was to be given, those that chose to stay knew this. Point is, what are we going to write in the history books about this war? I cant find a acceptable way to justify invading any other country based only on the possability that they might possess some weapons, of like kind which we happen to possess a few ourselves, simply because at some point in the future, they might, if they have them, use them. What your telling me is preempetive attacks on countires that might, at some point in the future, pose a threat to us, or we feel are not really nice guys, is a good foreign policy? So some religious fanatics commit a act of terror, granted, a devastating and horridly cowardly act, and your willing to skip going directly after their leader, because we cant find him, and instead, you declare war on, and attack their next door neighbor, possibly sowing the seeds of another world war, and throwing gas on a already hot fire, which, like most religious fires, if left alone, would burn itself out, or stay contained in its own crazy little part of the world. At the same time, you willing to put the screws to the citizens of your own country, either out of fear, or ignorance, in the empty belief you can now , some how, keep the bad guys out from here on? But as long as your willing to keep adding gas...and lighting fires at home... Simply put, yup, we kicked butt, but were just stupid enough to do it in the wrong country, for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time. But, we won, sorta of, so we get to write the history book. Lets here your myth of Iraq, and be sure to use John Wayne in there somewhere. Remember, when your the loser, its called propaganda, when your the winner, its called history. Ed[banghead]
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Jim, (trainplanesandstuff) Trust me, I have no beef with the troops, they are the worlds best and finest. I have a beef with their CIC, not them. They earn our respect and thanks every day, and should be treated as the heros they are. Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironhorseman Saddam was a threat. He was working to destroy us. We stopped him before he could do further damage. Bill Clinton did nothing to stop this. He lobbed a couple of cruise missiles into an aspirin factory killing a janitor. Now he wants to take credit for destroying those weapons in 1998. Well Mr. Clinton, that isn’t gonna wash. You had your chance to save the world. You had your chance to get Osoma Bin Ladin several times and instead you sent us into a meaningless battle in Somalia and then into Bosnia to cover up your little extra-marital sex life. Who are we to decide if genocide in Bosnia is right or wrong? By the way, I didn’t see any support troop that war.
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