Willy, you are wise beyond your years!
I hope I don't come across as one of the know-it-alls that Jim is upset over. I have my share of specialty areas, but to claim that I know more than anyone else about such things is ludicrous--there's always something to be learned.
(And if something I just said doesn't sound right, blame the medications--I've been using that excuse all day!)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
AMEN P.Z., AMEN TO THAT!
Oh, darned, now the P.C. "Police" will come after me for injecting religion into a publich forum...well, shame on me.
edw wrote: Warning! A personal, possibly inflammatory, comment follows. Firing Don Imus for his insulting remark was not political correctness run amok. Even without the adverse financial ramifications, why would anyone want to be associated with such a mean-spirited person?
Warning! A personal, possibly inflammatory, comment follows.
Firing Don Imus for his insulting remark was not political correctness run amok. Even without the adverse financial ramifications, why would anyone want to be associated with such a mean-spirited person?
Sorry, but it was totally PC run amok. It was all about money, both before and after. Period.
Like most Americans, what Imus said did not affect me personally one whit. I could not care less. Unlike most Americans, I don't extend feelers in every direction seeking something -- anything -- that I can claim offended me.
You ask why anyone would want to be associated with such a "mean-spirited person"? BECAUSE HE DELIVERED LISTENERS, which was his job. Which earned him, his network stations and his advertisers bushels of cash. Radio isn't art -- it's all about making money. Imus is an entertainer, and if you truly believe he is mean-spirited, he fooled you.
Only until his advertisers detected the possibility of PC backlash (which would hurt their profits) was Imus thrown to the dogs. Only until the usual PC talking heads started their attacks and threatened to organize their minions to boycott Imus' advertisers did this become an issue.
Frankly, one couldn't find a better example of PC gone wild.
I guess my hope is that our new mods don't allow the most thin-skinned among us to set the bar here. I hope we aren't forced into dumbing it down. Otherwise, like zardoz says, this forum will read like a children's book.
As I have said many times before: Baskin-Robbins sells 33 flavors of ice cream because everyone isn't in love with vanilla.
Railway Man wrote: eolafan wrote: gabe wrote:Is it just me, or are we on something . . .Nope, it's not you Gabe, we ARE onto something here. I am gratified that I am not the only one who dislikes political correctness run amok.Eolafan:I don't know anyone who DOES like political correctness run amok. Or anything run amok. Especially mobs, dogs, hogs, and someone else's children. Am I correct in inferring that what really bothers you is that you don't like the outcomes of the forum? Well, sometimes I don't either. But as I pay nothing for the privileges this forum provides -- education, entertainment, sharing with friends -- I am in no position to enforce any complaint I might have with the management. I have complete freedom of choice: if I find the whims of the management insufferable I can take my "business" elsewhere. I expect if I did this little world will go on happily without me, as it should.I'm not cut out to be a moderator, because I'm not a moderate. Some of the people on here couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion. But even they are not useless as they establish a bad example. If I want to be liked, I'll call my dog; if I want rewards, I'll call my clients; if I want agreement with my boneheaded opinions, I'll call my competitors. RWM
eolafan wrote: gabe wrote:Is it just me, or are we on something . . .Nope, it's not you Gabe, we ARE onto something here. I am gratified that I am not the only one who dislikes political correctness run amok.
gabe wrote:Is it just me, or are we on something . . .
Nope, it's not you Gabe, we ARE onto something here. I am gratified that I am not the only one who dislikes political correctness run amok.
Eolafan:
I don't know anyone who DOES like political correctness run amok. Or anything run amok. Especially mobs, dogs, hogs, and someone else's children.
Am I correct in inferring that what really bothers you is that you don't like the outcomes of the forum? Well, sometimes I don't either. But as I pay nothing for the privileges this forum provides -- education, entertainment, sharing with friends -- I am in no position to enforce any complaint I might have with the management. I have complete freedom of choice: if I find the whims of the management insufferable I can take my "business" elsewhere. I expect if I did this little world will go on happily without me, as it should.
I'm not cut out to be a moderator, because I'm not a moderate. Some of the people on here couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion. But even they are not useless as they establish a bad example. If I want to be liked, I'll call my dog; if I want rewards, I'll call my clients; if I want agreement with my boneheaded opinions, I'll call my competitors.
RWM
Hi RWM. To directly answer your question with one word....NO. I am not particularly bothered by the outcome of any of our forum threads, only by ignorance, political correctness, lack of common sense and the simple (and far too often illustrated) that somebody knows everything about everything...which nobody (lease of all ME) has the right to claim.
selector wrote: zardoz wrote:...It's being "moderated" to the point of blandness and tediousness. It's become unexciting and monotonous. When it has gotten to the point of locking or deleting threads just because they are getting a bit "spirited", then the heart of the forum has been diminished.Are so many of you so thin-skinned that you cannot tolerate anyone with a different slant on things, or cannot tolerate a little 'real-world' type of discussion? It is becoming so saccharine around here that I might as well go to Disney World for the same type of formulated entertainment. No insults. No arguments. No dissention. zardoz, I don't think anyone has suggested that we want uniformity in thought here. We would like uniformity in the way we treat each other, and part of that treatment is "how" we use words to get our dissenting opinions understood. In fact, it becomes the goal of many people to get others to accept their opinions, even to the point of calling the other person a moron for not agreeing with them, or using other words of desperation and ineffectualism. Where in the forum's rules does it say that when an opinion is tendered, all responders must indicate their agreement to it? What it does say is that there are to be no personal attacks, and whether you like it or not, understand it or not, even accept it or not, personal attacks, including name calling, will not be tolerated.If that displeases you, you have every right and encouragement to find a venue where your preferred way of dealing with people will be welcomed.As to the question of protectionism...of course it is what we do. Of what use would we be if we didn't try to curtail expression outside the confines expressed in the rules? Why have the rules at all, in that case?We protect a values system where people can expect to come here and say something without suffering ridicule. We protect a values system that encourages exchanges of information and opinion, limited only by the rules that preclude overtly religious or political statements that are catalysts for bickering and hard feelings. The thread that precipitated this one was being burdened by personal comments and repeated positions that were not helping to yield a useful and informative discussion. When new posters decline to offer a comment or input of any kind and the same two or more persons keep exchanging head-bangs, what is gained that Kalmbach would like it's Board of Directors or shareholders to consider a sign of corporate success at their next annual meeting? So, the rules wisely prohibit that form of behaviour as a courtesy to would-be users who may wish to embark on such exchanges...tells them ahead of time that they should anticipate a request to desist, and then to be sanctioned if they don't comply. Bergie didn't have the time to ask guys politely off-line to change their behaviour. You got the "treatment" publicly, as a wide-cast sweep, and if your own post was selected to be deleted, and no other, a courtesy email was sent. The new mods like a more personal touch where we attempt to reach out, and to sway the posters from their own self-destruction, which is what aggressive and willful neglect of our warnings surely is.As I have stated repeatedly, opinions are welcome. Expect to face challenges. Each of those two exchanges can be said in gentle words that are at the same time focused on the topic and that foster a continued and friendly conversation. As soon as one person re-iterates, "Well, I don't think so," or words that mean the same thing, that is a sign that he has nothing more to add...and he should keep silent. What the moderators have to do, repeatedly, is to step in because, instead of silence, shouting the same opinion is what the offerer thinks will lend it some credibility. It won't.I hope my lengthy reply makes my position clear about dissenting opinions. We'd have nothing to talk about, otherwise, would we? The key word, though, is "talk"...not slander, not slur, not deprecate, not flame, no shouting. Them's the rules.-Crandell
zardoz wrote:...It's being "moderated" to the point of blandness and tediousness. It's become unexciting and monotonous. When it has gotten to the point of locking or deleting threads just because they are getting a bit "spirited", then the heart of the forum has been diminished.Are so many of you so thin-skinned that you cannot tolerate anyone with a different slant on things, or cannot tolerate a little 'real-world' type of discussion? It is becoming so saccharine around here that I might as well go to Disney World for the same type of formulated entertainment. No insults. No arguments. No dissention.
...It's being "moderated" to the point of blandness and tediousness. It's become unexciting and monotonous. When it has gotten to the point of locking or deleting threads just because they are getting a bit "spirited", then the heart of the forum has been diminished.
Are so many of you so thin-skinned that you cannot tolerate anyone with a different slant on things, or cannot tolerate a little 'real-world' type of discussion? It is becoming so saccharine around here that I might as well go to Disney World for the same type of formulated entertainment.
No insults. No arguments. No dissention.
zardoz, I don't think anyone has suggested that we want uniformity in thought here. We would like uniformity in the way we treat each other, and part of that treatment is "how" we use words to get our dissenting opinions understood. In fact, it becomes the goal of many people to get others to accept their opinions, even to the point of calling the other person a moron for not agreeing with them, or using other words of desperation and ineffectualism.
Where in the forum's rules does it say that when an opinion is tendered, all responders must indicate their agreement to it? What it does say is that there are to be no personal attacks, and whether you like it or not, understand it or not, even accept it or not, personal attacks, including name calling, will not be tolerated.
If that displeases you, you have every right and encouragement to find a venue where your preferred way of dealing with people will be welcomed.
As to the question of protectionism...of course it is what we do. Of what use would we be if we didn't try to curtail expression outside the confines expressed in the rules? Why have the rules at all, in that case?
We protect a values system where people can expect to come here and say something without suffering ridicule. We protect a values system that encourages exchanges of information and opinion, limited only by the rules that preclude overtly religious or political statements that are catalysts for bickering and hard feelings. The thread that precipitated this one was being burdened by personal comments and repeated positions that were not helping to yield a useful and informative discussion. When new posters decline to offer a comment or input of any kind and the same two or more persons keep exchanging head-bangs, what is gained that Kalmbach would like it's Board of Directors or shareholders to consider a sign of corporate success at their next annual meeting?
So, the rules wisely prohibit that form of behaviour as a courtesy to would-be users who may wish to embark on such exchanges...tells them ahead of time that they should anticipate a request to desist, and then to be sanctioned if they don't comply.
Bergie didn't have the time to ask guys politely off-line to change their behaviour. You got the "treatment" publicly, as a wide-cast sweep, and if your own post was selected to be deleted, and no other, a courtesy email was sent. The new mods like a more personal touch where we attempt to reach out, and to sway the posters from their own self-destruction, which is what aggressive and willful neglect of our warnings surely is.
As I have stated repeatedly, opinions are welcome. Expect to face challenges. Each of those two exchanges can be said in gentle words that are at the same time focused on the topic and that foster a continued and friendly conversation. As soon as one person re-iterates, "Well, I don't think so," or words that mean the same thing, that is a sign that he has nothing more to add...and he should keep silent. What the moderators have to do, repeatedly, is to step in because, instead of silence, shouting the same opinion is what the offerer thinks will lend it some credibility. It won't.
I hope my lengthy reply makes my position clear about dissenting opinions. We'd have nothing to talk about, otherwise, would we? The key word, though, is "talk"...not slander, not slur, not deprecate, not flame, no shouting. Them's the rules.
-Crandell
Very well said, Crandell! I agree with each and every word you said.
There's a reason that I haven't posted in this forum for a very long time. It's the fact that the personal attacks and insults were just getting to be too much. Things were getting to the point where I couldn't post anything without having to worry that my simple post was going to start a riot. I like to post in a place where I can have a civilized discussion and learn something, not where I can get 100 insults within 10 minutes of posting.
Like you said, it seems to me that "I disagree with your opinion and here's why..." is a much better response to a post than "Are you crazy? You're an idiot! You must not have been around when they were handing out brains..."
It seems that there are some people who just watch and wait for a key opportunity to chime in with some snide remark that will be certain to start a war.
Even though I haven't posted in a long time, I have been lurking and I've been quite happy to see threads getting locked before they turn into shouting matches. That seems much better than waiting to lock them until everyone has been insulted and degraded and feels like going off into a corner and crying.
In any event, I just thought I would let you know that someone out there supports the work you and the other new moderators are doing. It seems that a lot of people don't like it, but it is my opinion that you're doing things the right way. Keep up the good work.
Willy
Read the previous post as..."It's business".
Or, stated in a more quaint expression, "He who pays the piper calls the tune." Don Imus, I am guessing, became an instant liability, and the consequences of keeping him as a corporate adjunct (i.e., defending him) were deemed to be unacceptable.
So, Kalmbach is no different. They want to foster a certain image, and to then maintain that image as best they can. That, necessarily, means managing certain activities, forum behaviour being one of them.
-Crandell.
When it comes to matters of free speech, the proper balance between unrestricted and restricted speech is usually determined by the venue in which the speech is made. Every first year law student is taught that the first amendment's guarantee of freedom of expression has limits. The classic example that is often given is that a person has no constitutional right to yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater, merely as a joke.
Similarly, the acceptable limits on our speech in the workplace, where cooperation among employees is an important consideration, is clearly different from that which we enjoy as individuals standing on our own front porch. In addition, online forums, such as this one, which are owned by a business entity not wishing to offend advertisers, usually enforce even more limits on free expression. While I don't expect Bergie to make them public, I'm sure there are corporate policies in place, which guide his decisions concerning forum etiquette.
In my opinion, it seems that once you start to potentially impact someone's financial interests, the more restrictions on free expression you are likely to encounter. While some may refer to this as political correctness, others would consider such restrictions to be just good business sense. And, as long as we are surfing on someone else's dime, I think the moderators of this forum will continue to take a conservative and somewhat restrictive approach when it comes to our heated forum debates.
Dope I mean... Nope
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Semper Vaporo wrote: nanaimo73 wrote: selector wrote: I live on a large island NE of Vancouver, BC, Canada. North east ? I'm glad they tought us PPCLI types how to read a map. The only mass of land North EAST of Vancouver, I would call a "Continent".
nanaimo73 wrote: selector wrote: I live on a large island NE of Vancouver, BC, Canada. North east ? I'm glad they tought us PPCLI types how to read a map.
selector wrote: I live on a large island NE of Vancouver, BC, Canada.
North east ? I'm glad they tought us PPCLI types how to read a map.
The only mass of land North EAST of Vancouver, I would call a "Continent".
Wuups. Too much time at the computer yesterday. NW it is.
I have had a couple of mini debates here but nothing more exciting. In some ways this can be a very informative avenue for railfans. But one problem in my humble opinion is that it can be hard to see a persons point of view while staring at a screen. When you are looking at a person you can tell their mood or detect a certain inflection in their voice. This is so impersonal there is a lot or room for misunderstanding. Anyway we all like trains i hope and we need to bring more people to what seems to be a floundering avocation.
Gentlemen:
A few years ago Mark Hemphill and I would engage I discussion on our favortie topics in the forum that preceeded this one. As the editor of the mag. (with all due respect to Bergie) he and I would from time to time say that enough had been spoken or should we not try to stay on topic. I aplaud many in the forum for keeping this tradition going and I look to being back with you soon.
PL
PS: Lest I forget, respects to she known to the breatheren (and sisterine) as Kitty - PL
There seems to be allot of this going on in the forum. Deleting of post unanswered post, and the eternal debates & opinions. Opinions will very from form to form, some good , some bad.
The memeber that had started this thread did speak up about how things are going in the forums in his eyes. I, myself did not have to try to read between the lines to understand what he was saying, its simple if you really think about it. People have thoughts and ideas, and there are going to be opinions, but the opinions that read between the lines searching for a debate, with using capy and past as ammo, then show the other members what he is "really saying" in their own words not the posters. Well! What is that then I ask myself?
Good conversation shouldn't have to come from this. When a member ask a question to the members and others point out to him about his spelling, or the way he arranged his sentence, what does that have to do with the question? Or a poster puts up a picture of his scratch built structure and ask everyone what they think, then gets replies like; Looks Good, Great, Nice work, or love it! He is happy then right? Until a poster puts up a comment like; Boring, I would not have wasted my time, or I've seen better! What kind of opinion is that? It seems very rude to put it forward to the builder that way I think, and yes it is just a opinion, but it starts a war then that never ends it seems like, and the followers of the rude opinion seem to jump on the band wagon then to help drive the builders work into the ground. What ever happen to being nice I ask you?
Its easy to sit at a computer and cut someone up because it makes them feel good inside. I have had some of this happen and take it in stride. I have even been sent person messages by these type of members who just cannot seem to let it go, been called all kinds of names in these PM by them to, but I just delete them.
IMHO I think the forum has had a shift in its day to day posting, this goes back over a year ago when this was gaining speed again. Opinions will always differ, that is a fact of life. The good questions or post out there seem to be getting very little response because of the shift towards debating and opinions. I choose to stay out of these topics unless it calls for some kind of backing from other members when it gets out of hand. The word "idiot & moron" seem to be the word of choice for the members seeking arguements. There are seasoned vets, and new people to MR, so we need to think just a bit before we type. Opinions are good things to listen to, some are right, others are dead wrong.
It's not an issue. I have had strong commentary regarding some of my postings...but I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking. At the end of the day I'm here for light hearted discussion with others who enjoy trains and maybe to learn something (which I have)...if you have opinions that differ from mine that's cool with me. About insults in posts...I usually consider the source and just let it go...or I respond in kind if a funny or clever response comes to mind... Relax..it's only cyberspace...it's not as if someone's in your face and shouting you down..
How nice to see the wide oppinion that is spoken. Pogo seems to be getting into better company. I think?
No. It's just you.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
This forum has explained a lot to me, I often wondered when I posted a comment I would get some really strange reply(usually sarcastic or very pointed) then the comment would seem to veer off to a personal attack, It made me wonder if I was going nuts, then I felt as if I was being baited(and I was) I have kept my eye on this forum and one of these "snipers" has not responded to this forum (have any of you noticed a particular absence of certain people????) this forum has explained a lot to me and I'm on guard for these ***** Some replies above are of excellent quality and it's nice to see intelligent conversation and input and constructive information, If I have any (intelligent) comments to make that are MY opinion, I feel a little better writing them and welcome (intelligent) response in return. thanks
eolafan wrote:Anybody care to give his or her take on this issue/subject?
The issue lies, in my opinion, in the fact that most of the threads here deal with some level of speculation. Inherent within that style of debate is the lack of facts. Previous experiences (my basis for this opinion post) and similar situations provides the basis for some opinions, statistics for others, nothing for some. The list goes on, but they all share the common theme of being not a fact.
Experience is specific to the person and in many cases you may find conflicting experience. Statistics are nothing more than probabilities based on previous similar situations and always allow for the exception case. Opinions based on nothing, well obviously they can't contain fact except by accident.
The problem then rears its head when someone vehemently pursues their opinion using one of these bases. They dump words upon words and and never budge or even admit that there is a possibility that the opposing view could be correct, even if the opposing view is simply based in devil's advocacy. This problem is rampant in online forums, which is generally the reasoning behind banning religion and politics. I admit, especially on those two topics, I can be a mule.
The last resort of a losing debator is personal attacks. I find myself erasing many a response before posting after finding that it contains attacks that are not against the opposing opinion, but the one that holds the opinion. Whether or not they are true does not matter, the attack is irrelevant to the debate. Passive-aggressive attacks are more common than straight up flaming in my experience, but still amounts to the same thing.
On a related theme, misunderstanding and interpretations seem to be an issue. Nothing gets my goat more than someone telling me what I meant in a post. I suspect that there are just those out there that always look for hidden meanings or, going back to the original thought of the thread, look for ways to twist words to make the opposition look in the wrong. If you can refute what is written, then counter-point (or counter-counter-counter-point). If not, then find something in your own argument that can counter it. If the meaning is unclear, then ask for clarification.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above opinions are unique to the poster and not to be attributed to any other member, moderator, staff, owner, or anyone else at all, ever, period. The end.
Modelcar wrote: .....It must be that I missed a happening on here along the line...Maybe Selector can update me a bit. What has changed with the way this forum is now being moderated....?
.....It must be that I missed a happening on here along the line...Maybe Selector can update me a bit. What has changed with the way this forum is now being moderated....?
It's being "moderated" to the point of blandness and tediousness. It's become unexciting and monotonous. When it has gotten to the point of locking or deleting threads just because they are getting a bit "spirited", then the heart of the forum has been diminished.
No insults. No arguments. No dissention. No way to really express how we feel about a particular subject. Just plain boring text, suitable for publishing in your average grade-school book. And heaven help the rest of us when the realization hits that the world does not owe them something. To see and learn that bit of wisdom, they will have to watch tv; tv: the great social educator, constantly presenting viewers with a such distorted resemblance of reality, and its sheeple sitting there passively absorbing all of its falsehoods.
I can't help but wonder just who these protectors (moderators) are protecting. And what, exactly, are they protecting them from?
And who will protect us from our "protectors"?
....Selector:
Thanks for the input. I've just been wondering what all the fuss of back and forth has been about.
PS: Imus was my "must see" morning TV program too. Now, it's turned into Morning Joe....Can't get Imus on his new program. Neither radio or TV. Imus has been a crusty "different programer" but really doing a bunch of good in the background. Of course I liked his show too.
Quentin
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Dan
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