Amtrak never on time

[jeaton]

As you may have noticed on the Trains Newswire today, the dimwits in the current Federal Administraion in charge of these things are proposing an appropriation of half the amount needed for Amtrak to proceed with the program to put the railroad and equipment to a state of good order. They are holding out for "real reform" as if that is some sort of magic bullet that will somehow accompli***he task with much less expenditure of funds. Duh! Oops-Maybe I am wrong. I supposed everything could be shipped to China, fixed there, and shipped back.

Or maybe there is someone out there stupid enough to spend 8 or 10 billion with no hope of making money.

Time to write your congressman again. You might reach someone who thinks on his own and responds to the interest of the people in his district. Mine only does what Tom Delay tells him to do.

[Anonymous]

I was in the Twin Cities to catch a baseball game and Took the Empire Builder from MInot North Dakota and that train was 1 to 2 and a half hours late and then 2 days later we took the train back and it was around 3 hours late i was this wondering why this is

[mnwestern]

My wife and I rode Amtrak twice in 2003. In April, we took coach on the Empire Builder from the Twin Cities to Chicago, and connected with a sleeper compartment on the Cap. Ltd. to Rockville, MD. Both out and back all the trains were on time (or within minutes).
In July, we went roundtrip from St. Cloud (MN) to Havre (Mont.) in coach. While we were a few minutes late departing St. Cloud on the westbound Empire Builder, we got to Havre pretty much on time. Coming back was fine.
We've only traveled the Empire Builder and Cap. Limited. Delays we've ever had have always been on the Cap. Ltd. and none longer than a couple of hours, usually eastbound and caused by weather or track, etc., it seemed.
It appears to me Soo Line (CP runs the Empire Builder from T.Cities to Chicago) and BNSF do a pretty good job getting Amtrak's trains over their rails in good time. Seems to be better than most other Class Is.

[Anonymous]

As an Amtrak employee, who has utilized most forms of transport, I know that the rails is the best of them all. Some of you responding don't realize that we must least the use of the tracks from the freight railroads that we "MUST" run our trains over to get to your destination. If the bus companies and the airline companies had to pay for the use of the sky or the highways, I can bet, things in their industries would change dramatically! Let's do a little reality check here! The rail industry gets approximently 2% of the outlays
from the Department of Transportation budget. This finding was done by several of our
unions. Meanwhile, the highways get approximently 52% and the airline industry get 25%! If these findings are correct, then that mean rail industry(Amtrak included) gets a
whopping 2 cents out of every dollar the Department of Transportation dishes out! Can you survive on 2 cents??! I don't think any of us can survive on 2 cents, so why then you,
the riding public, ask us to perform miracles on 2 cents. The airline industry was in the
dog house before 9-11 came along, but you don't hear anyone complaining on how bad
they are! I have flown many times before, and I can tell you, I've had my share of delays from them as well, either waiting to take off, waiting for my connecting flight(sometimes
due to lack of a plane), or waiting to land while watching the same scenery again and again. Plus, when you are delayed on the highways, who are you going to complain to then?? Both the highways and airlines are still in trouble, but you'll accept those malidies, but not anything when it comes to Amtrak. You are as hypocritical as that phony government and president that are currently running(ruining) this country!!

[jeaton]

The Texas Eagle is an illustration of what can be done to improve on time performance, and since it is operated on UP tracks, credit should be given where credit is due. I understand that there was a fairly heavy up grade amd maintenance program along of the route, and no doubt that had much to do with taking one of the worst performers to the top.

My last trip on the Eagle last November was not so good. The train arrived 3 hours late, having spent that time stopped for the investigation when a passenger jumped from the train at speed. Appearantly suffering from paranoid dillusions, the passenger felt he had to escape people "out to get him". He was said to have just missed a bridge structure and survived. My point is that often delays are caused by car or pedestrian accidents, freight derailments and weather; the last a frequent cause of major problems for any method of travel. (that is, at least in those parts of the country that actually has weather).

[:-^][:-^][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

My apartment is next to the former SP line in west Houston. This is a section of double track on what is primarily a single track line. The "Sunset Limited" trains 1 and 2 are triweekly because of lack of political interest on the part most of the Congressional delegations from the Sunbelt states. The westbound train is due in at 903pm and is supposed to leave at 918pm. I usually see #1 sometime betwwen 1030pm and a little past midnight. The eastbound train is due in at 1045am and out by 1055am. Most of the time I see #2 in the late morning or early afternoon. The actual time varies from almost on time to around sundown. Today, Friday 2-6-04 I heard a passenger train coming and saw the EASTBOUND at around 11pm! That takes the cake: over half a day late! Then the westbound came through about 1130 or 1145pm as usual. When UP bought out the SP/D&RGW, I thought that the UP would show'em how grownup railroads are run. When I rode the "San Francisco Zephyr" across UP's Wyoming racetrack in the '70's and "The Pioneer" in Idaho and Oregon in the "80's I was favorably impressed. Nowadays, the old SP line across Texas is all welded rail maintained to high standards, and most of it has CTC. The freight cars and diesels that I see look to be in fairly good shape, far better than the SP of the '70's that drove Amtrak nuts. There is far more through freight traffic than ever before, but there is alot less local freight. Most of the lumber yards, warehouses, feed mills, rice dryers, sand/gravel/concrete plants have closed or are no longer rail-served. All this points to a faster tempo of operations which should keep passenger trains on time. It does not seem to be the case. Rarely does weather play a major factor around here.

[Anonymous]

The AR Gazette-Democrat just published an article, favorable to Amtrak, that the Texas Eagle had the best on-time performance of all the long distance routes in the country. I have ridden the Eagle twice in the last six months - we were on time each time. The leg room was great, the food was fine and I enjoyed not having to drive and worry about those awful drivers talking on their cellphones.

[CG9602]

Well, Amtrak has to hold trains for other late trains, in order so that the paying customers can make the connections. I don't deny that sometimes Amtrak shoots itself in its feet on occasion. A certain percentage of Amtrak's probelms stem from the issue that it has always been under-capitalized, and under-funded. To those who say cut all of Amtrak funding, I say that in order to make money one first must *spend* money. In other words, in order to make a profit, one must first fund and capitalize the organization at a level which ensures adequate performance. The Freight railroads are profit - oriented entities, and if Amtrak had more funding, then it would be able to pay rent at a level which better reflected the market value of the rail lines Amtrak rents from the frieght RRs. If Amtrak had sufficient funding, then it would be able to pay its landlords enough to make punctual and efficient handling worth their while. BNSF seems to think so (at least, their P. R. does). Come to think of it, if there was some sort of lng term capital funding for RRs, similar to the Highway or Airline Trust Funds, the frieght RRs might be in better financial straits than they are currently. Hmmm . . .

[RudyRockvilleMD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Criminolodude

Hi all,

So many times in this thread, people are saying that the freight railroads are out to get Amtrak. WRONG! They have a business to run, as does Amtrak. None of them is a charity or non-profit. If companies like UP & BNSF don't deliver the goods on time, their customers will walk to the office of another carrier and give them the business. .

Just three more cents worth...

That's your $3 worth, and I agree with you. Very often Amtrak's trains are late because they do it to themselves such as multiple stops at one station without making allowances in their schedules, equipment problems, or holding trains for late connections. If Amtrak's trains are late are dispatchers supposed to hold their freight trains until the Amtrak trains show up? Today many industries rely on just-in-time deliveries so they have to rely on freight trains running on time to meet their production commitments.

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

So many times in this thread, people are saying that the freight railroads are out to get Amtrak. WRONG! They have a business to run, as does Amtrak. None of them is a charity or non-profit. If companies like UP & BNSF don't deliver the goods on time, their customers will walk to the office of another carrier and give them the business. Over the years, that is what has happened to Amtrak's customers. Amtrak has not delivered a quality product and its former customers now fly or drive. Taking Amtrak is a last resort for the bulk of the population. And the brand is so tarnished that it must be banished from the rail map of the future in order for customers to return.

All the time we have trains with a crew in double digits, there's no way to run them profitably. Intercity trains must be fast, frequent, economical and actually provide a service people want. One train per day each way is NOT a service.

The Amtrak buses need to go and quickly. Who is travelling from San Bernardino to Bakersfield? I can see the hoards of people waiting for that service at my local station when it calls there (OK, not really!).
Amtrak's business is running TRAINS, not loss making buses.

Finally, one great idea for Southern California. Let's take Amtrak out of operating the Surfliners and pass those operations over to SCRRA (who do know how to run trains on time). With all that equipment, the entire service could be re-vamped to provide more frequent, better timed trains, picking up at more stations (Why doesn't Amtrak serve DOWNTOWN Burbank?). Additionally, the VERY generous current seat pitch could be reduced to add seats and thereby cheap capacity without the need to add vehicles.

Just three more cents worth...

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tjsmith30

I put my mom on an Amtrak train from NY to SC. It wasn't too bad on the way down but was over crowded coming back. So mush so, that the Conductors were offering passengers money to share their sleepers!! I mean it was standing room only.

And everyone was shocked at the SuperBowl! [}:)]

[Anonymous]

I put my mom on an Amtrak train from NY to SC. It wasn't too bad on the way down but was over crowded coming back. So mush so, that the Conductors were offering passengers money to share their sleepers!! I mean it was standing room only.

[CG9602]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jack Sprat

Two years ago I wanted to travel from Seattle to Minneapolis and back over a weekend for a wedding. I followed the Empire Builder on Amtrack's web site for a week. The train was always late, and not just one or two hours.

That doens't mean that the train is late now, or all of the time. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Amtrak has been made tardy due to the freight railroads' traffic controllers, and other factors outside of Amtrak's control. Exceptions don't prove the rule. The tardiness of one route or another doesn't mean the entire system is flawed. The rule in the case of the Empire Builder is that it has usually been on time over 80%. Sometimes it has an on-time rating over over 90% - better than the FAA Trust Fund subsidized airlines.

QUOTE: This was in June by the way. Airfare - $198;

Compared to what? Are you comparing airline coach fares to a sleeper (i.e. first class, meals included) fare? Are you comparing first class airfare to sleeper fare ( a more valid comparison, BTW, but still apples to oranges)? Did you look up the station closest to you, or did you just compare the rates between the closest two large cities? For every claim that planes are cheaper, I can find a destination pair where Amtrak is cheaper. Long distance intercity trains don't just go from one large city destination to another, they also serve many intermediate cities and towns that have poor air service, costly air service, or no air service at all. Have you compared smaller market-to-smaller market fares between the train and the airlines? Try getting to someplace like Klamath Falls, or Duluth, or Ft. Wayne, or ABQ, or Madison, WI, or Red Wing, MN, or Dubuque, or Raleigh NC, and then see which is the cheapest. I have had the experience that walk-up rail fare is considerably less expensive than walk-up airfare.

QUOTE: Two nights in a motel - $120; Chrysler convertable rental - $165.

What do these prices have to do with Amtrak? These two items are irrelevant.

QUOTE: No wonder Amtrack is in trouble.

Amtrak is in trouble because it has been undercapitalized from the start, and has the additional handicap of having to deal with landlords (the freight RRs) who don't want it around. Amtrak is in trouble becuase it has no dedicated long-term source of funding, unlike the airlines (which have a taxpayer and FAA subsidized Trust Fund) and the highways (which also have a taxpayer and gov't subsidized Trust Fund). All forms of transportation in the United States are subsidized in one way or another, its just that the Trust Funds make the highway and airline subsidies appear "invisible." If you want to find out the true cost of air travel, privatize the air traffic control system, and all of the airports. Make airlines build their own airports, with their own money, without FAA funding. Privatize the Interstates and/or make them all tollways. you'll discover how much things really cost, and it may make Amtrak appear to be a bargain then. Amtrak is in trouble becuase people with their own agendas use a per passenger unit of measurement when measuring Amtraks finances. The correct unit of measurement is per-passenger-MILE, just llike how freight RR's use ton-miles when measuring their traffic levels. The per passenger measurement frequently produces meaningless numbers which are construed to make Amtrak look bad. Amtrak may be in more trouble in the future, because it has to travel over tracks that the frieght railroads have to maintain and pay for all by themselves (no Trust Fund for the railroads, IOW). The private railroads aren't covering their cost of capital, which means that they may have less money to do their own maintenance in the future, with the result that Amtrak will be delayed due to maintenance or the lack thereof. Amtrak might be the canary in the coal mine for several of the issues that plague the industry as a whole. The day may come when we have no other choice but to start setting aside Federal funds (a.k.a "Feddybucks") for rail, and in such a fashion that Amtrak finally gets the capital it needs.

Enough of the rant. Sorry for going off on a tangent, everyone, its just that I like passenger trains in addition to the freight trains, and I also want a third choice to travel, not just cars or flying sardine cans (oops, meant to type airplanes [;)] )

[Anonymous]

One time I waited six hours thanks to Norfolk Southern and CSX. CSX delayed the train four hours, NS did two[:(!].

[Modelcar]

a-guy5...Send your letter with times and dates to Mr. Gunn President of Amtrak....I'll bet he will make some action happen. He seems to be a leader who is trying everything he can to make Amtrak perform better with what he has to work with...People he has... and he can talk to them about such unacceptable happenings. He should really know about such performance.

[Anonymous]

Two years ago I wanted to travel from Seattle to Minneapolis and back over a weekend for a wedding. I followed the Empire Builder on Amtrack's web site for a week. The train was always late, and not just one or two hours. This was in June by the way. Airfare - $198; Two nights in a motel - $120; Chrysler convertable rental - $165. No wonder Amtrack is in trouble.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

This is something that Amtrak's management should hear about. 6-1/2 hours waiting at a station without an explanation is not excuseable unless the delay was weather related. This delay you described is an example of a delayed Amtrak train that was self-inflicted.

[Anonymous]

I rode amtrak's "lake shore limited" from boston mass to toledo ohio,from boston to albany was okay,then we had to wait for the second half of our train to meet us in albany coming from NYC.they "amtrak",told us to wait in the station while they refuled and waited for the other train,supposedly this would take 40 minutes,then they said it would be an hour and a half "no explanation".after about 3 hours they told us to reboard our coach,which was moved far ahead of the platform,"we had to walk quite a distance before we could reboard,no problem for me but there were elderly people who had to walk also."plus it was bitterly cold out.anyway we reboarded and thought we would leave soon.No chance of that,2 more hours pass,no explanation from amtrak as to why we were waiting so long.
now they had to call in another crew because our crew was at there limit on hours.we were wondering why cant we just go ahead without the train section from nyc? surely amtrak could run an extra or a special train to complete the journey right? nope...
well after a total of 6 1/2 hours sitting in albany,someone on our train called his friend who made some calls and discovered that a freight train in virginia derailed,causing the nyc amtrak to take an alternate route,why couldnt amtrak tell us this information? at least we would have maybe understood...so knowing this still why didnt amtrak send us on our way without the other train...well heres the kicker...a conductor finally told us why we had to wait...
it was all because the train from nyc "our second half of our train" was carrying
in its consist the US MAIL!!! so amtrak wasn't concerned at all about its passengers....must be the revenue from the mail is far greater then passenger revenue...anyway i have rode amtrak a few times and i think this was my last ride.AMTRAK should SHAPEUP!!! customer care should be a top priority.i belive in mass transit but amtrak isnt the way to go...if you need to be on time dont take amtrak!!

[jchnhtfd]

Forgive me, but I think a blanket condemnation of all employees and leaders of any organisation -- any organisation, although perhaps based upon observation of a group, is unnecessary[:(], not to mention that it might just possibly be unfair to those in the organisation who are dedicated to providing good service, of whom (at least on the parts of the organisation's system I frequent) there are many; indeed, a vast majority.

[Anonymous]

Amtrak wouldn't know how to run a train on time if it bit 'em in the ***.

In Southern California, they are daily shamed by SCRRA's Metrolink service, which runs like clockwork versus the same set of "excuses" they regularly trot out as the root of the problem. Los Angeles is teeming with rail traffic of all kinds and Amtrak can't run just a dozen or so trains a day through it successfully!

The real issue is just the total apathy of all involved in Amtrak from top to bottom.

No matter, the new order is coming and there is no place in it for those unwilling to save themselves.

Amtrak is just too many people driving too many golf carts too much of the time. One short stroll through LA's Union Station will show you that.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all who answered my question along with the original posters question.

[jchnhtfd]

Nwjeff, baltacd -- you're hitting on exactly the same theme I was musing on: the 'right sizing' (or, as some would put it, the sheer lack of physical plant and employees on some railroads, who shall remain nameless but who are hiring frantically to cover for past actions). Right sizing on some roads -- BNSF, CP, CN most notably -- has worked, and worked well, and their record shows it. Right sizing on some others went way overboard, and the sad fact is you can't run a train on a track which isn't there with a crew which is dead on the law. Period. And from the various comments on various trains on this thread, it isn't that hard to figure out who's who... and I truly feel sorry for the dispatcher who has to juggle an impoverished railroad and catches it from the boss when things don't work.

[Anonymous]

When I worked on Norfolk Southern's Piedmont Division, I was told that NS had to pay hefty fines to Amtrak if we caused them to be delayed. We were frequently put in the hole to allow an Amtrak to get around us.

[Anonymous]

Yes, UP is out to get Amtrak, but lately, in the past year, the Texas Eagle has been getting to Chicago and San Antonio better (an hour or so late instead of 3-4 hours late). The conductor on the Eagle said UP got a new attitude when Mr. Gunn threatened to take its fuel surcharge allowance away.....(making fuel much more expensive for UP)....

I ride Amtrak almost every vacation, and have seen America riding the rails. The trip is always enjoyable, and I get a lot of rest and relaxation. I don't care how late the trains are, because I always plan the trip to have a couple of days of missed connections anyway....

The thing that bothers me most is that some of the time when the trains missed connections, I end up in coach instead of the sleeper the next day..... However, Amtrak has always refunded the difference. At least Amtrak will put you up in a motel nearby the stations, something the airlines refuse to do.....

[jeaton]

Balt ACD. I do appreciate that there are capacity limits and I don't mean to imply that the delays are the result of a "don't care" attitude on the part of the man on the desk. I was in the business long enough to realize that getting a train, any train, over the road takes some real effort on the part everyone involved. The fact is BNSF and CP seem to be doing a better job than others at handling Amtrak trains. Must be something going on.

[Anonymous]

Until about one year ago, I worked for Amtrak in Portland, OR. Dealing with the Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle and the Empire Builder from Chicago to Portland was like night and day. For the year 2002 I believe we did an unofficial calculation of the northbound Starlight's average late arrival into Portland for the year and it was 3 hours and 20 minutes. The Empire Builder was almost always on time or very close to it. If the Builder was late, there was usually a good reason-weather, unusual mechanical problem, etc. The Starlight's delay was largely but not entirely attributable to the UP.

CP and BNSF own the Builder's route and both railoads did a very good job of operating the Builder on time a priority. I have a feeling that this speaks volumes of how both CP and BNSF operate their freight trains.

UP operates the Starlight from Los Angeles as far as Portland, with the BNSF operating the train Portland-Seattle. On UP, operating Amtrak on time was obviously not a priority. While not all Starlight delays can be blamed on UP, I would say well over half the delays were preventable.

Another comparison is the Amtrak Cascades corridor. Seattle-Portland trains generally run on time or close to it as BNSF owns the tracks. South of Portland to Eugene, UP owns the tracks and frequently hammers all passenger trains with delays.

[BaltACD]

It is easy to throw stones at Dispatching for the Amtrak On Time woes, however, for those stones to have any real merit the Dispatcher has to have a physical plant the approximates the traffic level of the territory.

The Class 1's have been 'right sizing' their physical plant ever since the conclusion of WW II and now have the physical plant of an anorexic woman.....There is no capacity for anything beyond a depression level of traffic. Trains do occupy a physical space of track and cannot be manipulated in real life like they can in board games. The facts are that there isn't enough physical plant (yards, main line multiple track, sufficiently large and numerous passing sidings) to run both freight traffic and passenger traffic both on time. Decisions have to be made that affect the 50 to 100 trains that may be on some busy territories at any one time....not just a single Amtrak train. When the dispatcher has an inadequate physical plant to operate his hands are tied behind his back as to the moves that can be made. Without a sufficient number of train sized passing sidings (note freight train size now is for trains of 9000 to 11000 feet range) those monster trains can only meet a a fraction of the sidings on most territories. Those inadequacies affect the total operation, both freight and Amtrak.

Those who complain about dispatching need to sit in the dispatchers chair for a few days.

[Anonymous]

I thank god for Amtrak. I ride it regularly between Chicago nad D.C. and yes it is late and yes I have been stuck for several hours on a stationary train because the locomotive crapped out but what is the alternative? An airport with armed MPs, hassles going to your departure point, questions that come damn close to being insulting. When I'm late on Amtrak, I am, at least comfortable. No big fat broad with a cheek taking up half my seat. I wish Amtrak would get some freeway of it's own, that would probably answer all the on time questions.

[Mookie]

ooo - Talon Cake - that ishow Mookie looks after the chocolate cake goes by.... oooo

(Sorry bout that - but it is a forum joke and too good to pass up)

Welcome to the forums -

Mookie