BREAKING NEWS - Amtrak train rear ends freight in Chicago

[Soo 6604]

Once again, CSX

Looks like someone has it out for CSX. Need some facts before blaming a company that didn't even occur on its rails. And for the record, it happened on the NS

[chefjavier]

Check your information. It was in NS tracks but a CSX train. Check the facts.

[grampaw pettibone]

How do you know it is a CSX train? Everything mentioned in this thread and the news reports say it was an NS train, on NS tracks in an NS yard. Maybe you should tell us where you got that nugget of information.

[karldotcom]

That security video is wild....I wasnt aware it was that violent an impact.

http://www.trainfoamers.com/phorum2/read.php?10,29111

[zugmann]

Straight from amtrak's site (bold emphasis is mine):

 

 

Train 371, the Pere Marquette - Service Disruption Near Chicago

November 30, 2007
7:30 pm CDT

Amtrak is working with the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and other agencies following a collision involving Amtrak Train 371, the Pere Marquette, of Friday, November 30, with a Norfolk Southern (NS) freight train on NS tracks south of Chicago.

There were 187 passengers and six employees on board the Amtrak train. Most passengers and crew members were unhurt and were later transported to Amtrak Chicago Union Station and on to their destinations. Amtrak will work through the weekend, if needed, to care for affected passengers and employees. Two Amtrak employees were among the most seriously injured.

Amtrak service has resumed over this route between Chicago and points east, including Michigan, subject to some delays in the affected area. The only significant service disruption on Saturday, December 1, is the operation of Train 371, which will be represented by chartered motorcoaches for the full route south and west from Grand Rapids to Chicago.

Passengers should call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for specific information and train status updates.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed.

[SchemerBob]

That security video is wild....I wasnt aware it was that violent an impact.

http://www.trainfoamers.com/phorum2/read.php?10,29111

Too bad you have to be a member to access it.

[Dutchrailnut]

try:

http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv

[Mr_Ash]

I saw that on the news when I got home last night, it was really strange for me watching it because Friday I finished my First Responder training for work and the last thing we went over in class was MCIs (Multiple-Casualty Incidents) and the Triage system and im standing there watching TV like "Holy crap I know what there doing!"

It could have been alot worse, Im glad it wasnt  

[eolafan]

try:

http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv

This link worked for me...it may just be my perception from the video,  but the Chicago Tribune reproted this morning that the Amtrak train was doing max 15 mph when he went into emergency and it seemed to be doing more than 15 in the video, perhaps it was just the poor nature of the video or something.

[chefjavier]

try:

http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv

This link worked for me...it may just be my perception from the video,  but the Chicago Tribune reproted this morning that the Amtrak train was doing max 15 mph when he went into emergency and it seemed to be doing more than 15 in the video, perhaps it was just the poor nature of the video or something.

I also watch the video this morning and I notice the blind spot from the left train. It may be going 15mph in a slighty curve yard but because,the train were moving each side it may even see it coming to last moment. I guest this a mistake of the dispacther. Does anyone have another opinion?

 

[wabash1]

try:

http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv

This link worked for me...it may just be my perception from the video,  but the Chicago Tribune reproted this morning that the Amtrak train was doing max 15 mph when he went into emergency and it seemed to be doing more than 15 in the video, perhaps it was just the poor nature of the video or something.

I also watch the video this morning and I notice the blind spot from the left train. It may be going 15mph in a slighty curve yard but because,the train were moving each side it may even see it coming to last moment. I guest this a mistake of the dispacther. Does anyone have another opinion?

 

You can throw all the opinions and trash you want out here, 1st off it was a NS train not a csx train that this amtrak train ran into, 2nd if I remeber right it was CN trackage. No the NS train was not backing up it was stopped. I wont go into detail about other factors such as amtraks speeding, signals and other things . just wait til the investigation is done,

[eolafan]

I agree that we will not know for sure until the formal investigation is completed, but there is nothing an engineer can do to determine which track his/her train is switched under such circumstances as this is done primarily by the dispatcher.  There is NO WAY this train should have been on this track and plowed into the freight UNLESS the dispatcher lined him/her for this track and he/she had a red signal and ran through the red signal...but again this is speculation.  BOTTOM LINE though is somebody or something malfunctioned BIG TIME.

[Chris30]

First, I just want to say how amazing that it is to have video of this - and so soon.

Based on what I've seen and heard/read it looks like the NS Dispatcher crossed the Amtrak passenger train over from one track to the next with instructions to follow the freight train that it hit at restricted speed. I'm guessing at this point that both the NS dispatcher and the Amtrak train crew were expecting the freight train to have restarted and proceed sooner than it did. This could be a classic case of the Amtrak engineer "riding the yellows" (expecting the red stop signal to change to yellow restricted at the very moment that they pass the signal aspect except that the signal stays red and it's too late to stop). The television news coverage shows a bunch of empty tracks and you wonder why the engineer didn't see the train ahead. The security camera video shows a much better perspective of an active rail yard with a t least three different moving trains. The Amtrak train came around the slight left hand turn and couldn't see the stopped freight train ahead until it was too late because of traffic on other tracks that blinded their view. The security video could prove to be incriminating for the Amtrak engineer and assistant engineer.

I was impressed with the amount of damage done to the underside of the engine and that the fuel tanks/diesel fuel didn't catch on fire (reports say they did leak, but didn't rupture). Also, the three passenger cars remained upright and any damage looks minor. With the exception of the train crews injuries, most of the injured weren't seriously hurt. 

CC

[ValleyX]

When one receives a restricting signal, one proceeds prepared to stop.  It's all on the crews' shoulders.  One never knows what one might encounter on a restricting signal and one must operate accordingly.

[chefjavier]

try:

http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv

This link worked for me...it may just be my perception from the video,  but the Chicago Tribune reproted this morning that the Amtrak train was doing max 15 mph when he went into emergency and it seemed to be doing more than 15 in the video, perhaps it was just the poor nature of the video or something.

I also watch the video this morning and I notice the blind spot from the left train. It may be going 15mph in a slighty curve yard but because,the train were moving each side it may even see it coming to last moment. I guest this a mistake of the dispacther. Does anyone have another opinion?

 

You can throw all the opinions and trash you want out here, 1st off it was a NS train not a csx train that this amtrak train ran into, 2nd if I remeber right it was CN trackage. No the NS train was not backing up it was stopped. I wont go into detail about other factors such as amtraks speeding, signals and other things . just wait til the investigation is done,

You should check your information before posting on the forum.

[jeaton]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

[chefjavier]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

Not to burst your bubble but I think you may be going to aggresive with the speed.

[OldBNfan]

Local news here in Kalamazoo reported that their was a student engineer on the train with a trainer, and that the train was headed directly into the sunlight (potentially obstructing their forward view).

[Steam Is King]

Just heard on the news that the train loco was so damaged they might not be able to recober the black box.

Chico

[jeaton]

Local news here in Kalamazoo reported..., that the train was headed directly into the sunlight (potentially obstructing their forward view).

The train was heading directly north.

[Centaur]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

That's very good detective work, jeaton.  I read it as 6 seconds for the Amtrak train to travel its length before the collision.  I agree with your figure of 325 feet.  Therefore, I deduce an average of 37 mph while the train was moving for the camera.  If it were braking, then it would have been travelling faster than 37 mph when it first entered the field of view.   

[chefjavier]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

That's very good detective work, jeaton.  I read it as 6 seconds for the Amtrak train to travel its length before the collision.  I'm not an expert, so I'll accept your figure for the length of the train.  Therefore, I deduce an average of 37 mph while the train was moving for the camera.  If it were braking, then it would have been travelling faster than 37 mph when it first entered the field of view.   

 

Where do you get your calculations.. Keep in mind you have emergency breaking active.

[Dutchrailnut]

not according the passengers, no braking was felt till just before crash.

[Centaur]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

That's very good detective work, jeaton.  I read it as 6 seconds for the Amtrak train to travel its length before the collision.  I'm not an expert, so I'll accept your figure for the length of the train.  Therefore, I deduce an average of 37 mph while the train was moving for the camera.  If it were braking, then it would have been travelling faster than 37 mph when it first entered the field of view.   

 

Where do you get your calculations.. Keep in mind you have emergency breaking active.

As I previously stated, chefjavier, my figure is an estimate of the average speed while the train was moving in front of the camera.  As I also said, if the train were braking it would have been travelling faster than that average when it first it entered the field of view.  Naturally, that implies that if it were indeed braking, it would have been moving slower than that average immediately before the collision.  The question is whether it was proper for the train to have been moving around 37 mph at any time while in that rail yard.

The 325 ft length given by jeaton appears accurate.  The three passenger cars are each 85 ft and the engine is 70 ft.  I suppose some more length could be added between cars, but that would not change the estimated speed by much.  Of course, my reading of 6 seconds is imprecise, but it's close enough to get a ballpark estimate of the average speed.

325 ft / 6 sec x 3600 sec/hr / 5280 ft/mi = 37 mi/hr

[Centaur]

not according the passengers, no braking was felt till just before crash.

There was contradictory testimony from witnesses on that matter.  Some reported braking and some did not. 

[chefjavier]

Looking at the video and the clock on the screen, it took about 5 seconds for the entire train to enter the picture.  The length of 3 Superliners and a P42 is 325 feet which means that the train was moving at a speed of 65 feet per second, 3900 feet per minute or about 44.3 MPH.

If I have it right, that compares to the guess of the passenger who said 15 to 20 MPH.   I am not too surprised at the difference.  Unless a person had experience checking speeds, the perspective from the upper level of a Superliner is is going to cause the perceived speed to be less than the actual speed.

That's very good detective work, jeaton.  I read it as 6 seconds for the Amtrak train to travel its length before the collision.  I'm not an expert, so I'll accept your figure for the length of the train.  Therefore, I deduce an average of 37 mph while the train was moving for the camera.  If it were braking, then it would have been travelling faster than 37 mph when it first entered the field of view.   

 

Where do you get your calculations.. Keep in mind you have emergency breaking active.

As I previously stated, chefjavier, my figure is an estimate of the average speed while the train was moving in front of the camera.  As I also said, if the train were braking it would have been travelling faster than that average when it first it entered the field of view.  Naturally, that implies that if it were indeed braking, it would have been moving slower than that average immediately before the collision.  The question is whether it was proper for the train to have been moving around 37 mph at any time while in that rail yard.

The 325 ft length given by jeaton appears accurate.  The three passenger cars are each 85 ft and the engine is 70 ft.  I suppose some more length could be added between cars, but that would not change the estimated speed by much.  Of course, my reading of 6 seconds is imprecise, but it's close enough to get a ballpark estimate of the average speed.

325 ft / 6 sec x 3600 sec/hr / 5280 ft/mi = 37 mi/hr

You got your facts straight but we need to wait for the NTSB to tell us what inspired those crucial seconds before impact. Do you think Amtrak locomotives have cameras install in their cab?

[jeaton]

not according the passengers, no braking was felt till just before crash.

There was contradictory testimony from witnesses on that matter.  Some reported braking and some did not. 

As a fairly frequent rider on Superliners, I can understand that passengers might give mixed reports on the question of braking.  The sound made by applied brakes is isolated, so it mostly depends on a person's sensitivity to decceleration.

Since it is still an educated guess, I am OK with 6 seconds on the elapsed time.  It just gives us an idea of the speed and of course, doesn't answer why the train was moving at that speed.  If the black box doesn't have it, the NTSB collision specialists will probably be able to figure it from the damage.

Jay

 

[RRKen]

Soooo many experts, so little time.    The timing sounds about right give or take since it was hard to find a stationary object.

[jjtrains]

WLS Channel 7 ABC Television in Chicago  had an update report on its late evening  news broadcast (around 11 p.m. Saturday following the Missouri v Oklahoma football game).   NTSB spokesman was shown stating that the Amtrak engineer has confirmed 40 mph speed going into the slight curve, then applying full emergency and impacting at 33-35 mph.   So, if signal and/or dispatcher instruction was for "restricted" speed, wouldn't this be a plain violation, possibly on account of a mistake in signal recognition confusing Restricting (R/Y) for an Approach (Y/R)?

[jjtrains]

"The Amtrak train's engineer told investigators that after he switched tracks as instructed by a dispatcher, he accelerated to 40 mph; when he saw the freight train, he applied his brakes and hit the stationary train at between 33-35 mph, Sumwalt said. It took 9 seconds from the moment the engineer hit the brakes and the collision with the freight train, the NTSB official said."

***

"The Chicago Tribune reported Saturday that a dispatcher in Michigan told the Amtrak train to slow down, prepare to switch tracks and proceed with caution as it approached Chicago's Union Station.

The train's crew did as it was told, but still slammed into the freight train about a mile later. The Amtrak train applied its emergency brakes as it approached the freight train, but wasn't able to stop before the impact, the newspaper said."

Source: http://cbs2chicago.com/local/amtrak.crash.investigation.2.600105.html

So, do we know what the signal (at 63rd Street?) was actually displaying and if the dispatcher used the word "proceed with caution" as reported, does that mean "restricted" or "approach?"