rrnut282 wrote: ndbprr wrote:First comes the idea. The rest is just engineering details. The big problem is railroads that do not have foresight or try new things easily. The response accross the board will be, "We've never done that before".The wail of a dying organization. Adapt or die. Lima was slow to build diesels and went from a powerhouse to poorhouse in a few short years. There are many examples of companies that failed to embrace new technology and ultimately failed.Now I'm not saying every railroad should build one in every city, but I think it should be investigated and evaluated and tested.
ndbprr wrote:First comes the idea. The rest is just engineering details. The big problem is railroads that do not have foresight or try new things easily. The response accross the board will be, "We've never done that before".
The wail of a dying organization. Adapt or die. Lima was slow to build diesels and went from a powerhouse to poorhouse in a few short years. There are many examples of companies that failed to embrace new technology and ultimately failed.
Now I'm not saying every railroad should build one in every city, but I think it should be investigated and evaluated and tested.
Conversely, there are plenty of fools and idiots out there wanting to run major companies into the ground. Monster transfer tables or turntables in modern railroad service won't fly. If one is ever built, it will NEVER pay for itself. (and this surveyor has to put up with all the "magic" abilities that the public thinks GPS has, the same public that knows not the difference between accuracy and precision in the same manner that they know not the difference between GIS and GPS...)
ps - Carl not only fell on the floor in a fit of laughter, he darned near fell out of his hump tower!
ChuckCobleigh wrote: From the classic movie The Graduate:Mr. Robinson: Ben, this idea seems pretty half-baked.Ben: Oh no, sir. It's completely baked.I think that just about says it all.
From the classic movie The Graduate:
Mr. Robinson: Ben, this idea seems pretty half-baked.
Ben: Oh no, sir. It's completely baked.
I think that just about says it all.
Or the guy that dreamed this thing up was pretty "baked!"
Or if the table is 750 ft diameter, imagine the centrifical forces on a car near the outer edge.
And with the multiple alignment points, considered with the varying car lengths, how could you make the required multiple splits in a train without multiple stops and uncouplings?
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
jeaton wrote: Haven't heard from CShaveRR on this one yet. Assume Carl is still on the floor, laughing, gasping for breath...
Jay, I was laughing hysterically back on Page One. Had to knock myself out last night before normal breathing would return. Fortunately, I didn't lose any sleep over it (and neither should you, Ed!).
Keep in mind that all of those radial tracks approaching this thing take up valuable real estate, too. As I said, you won't find many places in the real world where trackage could be configured that way.
We generate roughly fifty different classifications in our yard--not counting any intermodal operations. How many stalls were there in a 360-degree roundhouse?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Seriousely though what is the advantage?
Parallel tracks take up less room when long trains are involved.
Semper Vaporo wrote: How about the trouble in maintaining alignment? Would you be able to align one straight through track at each of the 6 interfaces of the three rotating sections AND at the same time get the similar interfaces to align on the other 2 intersecting lines? That is 18 interfaces to put into alignment all at the same time, then rotate one, two or all three of the parts and do it again. Even if you could build it initially "perfect", due to the size of this thing, thermal expansion differences from one portion to another would throw everything akilter.
How about the trouble in maintaining alignment? Would you be able to align one straight through track at each of the 6 interfaces of the three rotating sections AND at the same time get the similar interfaces to align on the other 2 intersecting lines? That is 18 interfaces to put into alignment all at the same time, then rotate one, two or all three of the parts and do it again. Even if you could build it initially "perfect", due to the size of this thing, thermal expansion differences from one portion to another would throw everything akilter.
With a combination of the proper sensers, computers, and something like a power switch machine, final alignment may be the easiest of the multitude of problems to solve. The basic problems are are the physics - mass and inertia. (RR management inertia as well.)
dd
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Although I'm not advocating for this thing it does seem that they did some creative engineering to design it. Rather than scaling up locomotive turntable technology they propose to build the two rotating rings on a set of flanged wheels powered by traction motors and running on concentric circles of crane type rail. I agree with the sentiment that the the system seems like a maintenance nightmare. The total diameter for the one they want build in New Jersey is 1000 feet. I wonder if the cost of building it (estimated at approx. $220 million)would be cheaper than a conventional yard of similiar capacity (taking into account real estate costs)?
How big would a model be in HO or N scale?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Just stopped back in to see how the discourse was going when one of those random thoughts struck me with regard to this idea.
Rubik's Cube....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Haven't heard from CShaveRR on this one yet. Assume Carl is still on the floor, laughing, gasping for breath...
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Yeah Mark,
It's got me sweating bullets already....
Rrnut282...Mike, that's pretty much how it happens now.
The road power pull into the receiving yard, cuts off his train, runs through the yard and begins to double up his outbounds.
If he has time left to work, he might get back out of the terminal...if he is short on time, his replacement crew is usually waiting for him.
23 17 46 11
The proposed site for the pilot facility is Tremley Point NJ. I took a look at that area with Google Earth, and it is a massive petrochemical complex, rivaling Texas City in size. It would seem almost certain that what they are going to sort is almost exclusively hazmat flammables.
The land itself appears to be coastal wetlands, although I wasn't sure from the web site.
Right, they only need $200 million to build the pilot. It ought to be a slam-dunk! NOT!
edblysard wrote: HA ha ha ha haaaaaa....No, wait, uh...ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa.... Ok, I got it.....man, for a second I thought Futuremodal had found a buyer....This is about as nonsensical a concept as I have seen in a long time.As pointed out, if the table breaks, you're shut down till it gets fixed.And all the cars entering the table, or yard for that matter would have to be pre-blocked in big groups for this to function efficiently...single car switching on this would take hours. Oh well, at least someone is taking a idea and trying to make it work...but with railroading, as Larry already pointed out, KISS works best.
HA ha ha ha haaaaaa....
No, wait, uh...ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa....
Ok, I got it.....man, for a second I thought Futuremodal had found a buyer....
This is about as nonsensical a concept as I have seen in a long time.
As pointed out, if the table breaks, you're shut down till it gets fixed.
And all the cars entering the table, or yard for that matter would have to be pre-blocked in big groups for this to function efficiently...single car switching on this would take hours.
Oh well, at least someone is taking a idea and trying to make it work...but with railroading, as Larry already pointed out, KISS works best.
Hi Ed,
The damn contraption will put you out of work - better start looking for another job. LOL
On the other hand it might be wise to keep your yard trackage as a back up when those Houston rains flood the turntable pit and short circuit the whole thing.
Mark
Actually, this idea already works. Anyone here been to the B&O Museum? The TT is enclosed under ths big roof. I doubt if the TT moves very fast. At least the pit is covered so a visitor can't fall in. What I don't know is how many of the cars/locos have been repaired since the roof collapse?
Now how's this for an idea: suppose a facility could be built like a stadium with a big dome roof? All the space with no posts/supports in the way? All the glass to supply some light/heat?
This system misses the real issue, the issue in a yard is not switching cars, its capacity for in bound and outbound trains, there are only so many track coming in to and out of a yard. Even if you switch the cars faster, you still have to get the trains out. The other part hit upon in other posts is where do you put the trains while you air test them. Many a person has spent countless hours agonizing over how to run a yard more efficently and I'm sure there are more efficent ways to run a yard, but the money, resources and land to put such new wonders just is not available.
Yard operations are not a static system easy for computers to run, there are so many more variables than just moving cars from one track to another. A derailment in this system and you shut down the whole operation, in a yard today a derailment will limit your ability to classify as many trains but will not put the whole yard out of comission till it is cleaned up. Interesting but as said earlier, not practical.
I would deck it to keep out the snow and ice, so when there is a problem, I would walk across the table and open a hatch to start the repairs. One computer would be able to handle generating the cut list and operating the table.
I see this working best at a location where several lines come together already that way it's not just one way in and out and is more efficient. It would make short work of block swapping operations. I think the inventor sees it as a time saver as the mainline power only has make a cut and pull away. The trackmobiles and turntable do the rest of the work letting the mainline train go on its merry way much quicker than in a flat yard.
When I first saw this thing, I was impressed....for about 2 seconds. Then, all of the negatives began to pop into my head, the first one being the sheer size of something like this. I could not wrap my brain around this thing at all. There are far, far too many things that can go wrong, and this is not a solution, at least not for a large complex, and probably not even a small one either. Too many moving parts, and a reliance on only one way in and out.
Complexity breeds failure, and as Larry put it earlier. KISS..... that always works best. I could only imagine the size of the power plant it would take to power this thing, not to mention the size of everything else. How would maintenance and repair crews gain access to repair something that may go wrong inside underneath the inner table. Who would want to crawl the 500 or so feet through maintenance tunnels to get to the problem.....
No, this goes under the heading of "What happens when someone thinks too much", or "A Solution in Search of a Problem"
Does anybody remember what happens if the handbrakes were not set and the table was not lined up? Thats right folks the big hook came out and someone got a butt ripping. Good luck cleaning up a couple cars of hazmat in the pit.
No, won't work. At first I thought maybe on some smaller scale like one car turn table. But seriously, what is the advantage to this turn table to say, flat switching or hump sorting????
But I still love wacky ideas. And speaking of Futuremodel, where is he at, I haven't seen him promote his "ideas" lately?
Think Dan Harmon has been tinkering with that invention of his in the basement again...
"Scotty, beam me up another cross hopper car full of di-lithium crystals"
"Aye, Captain!"
As a railroad surveyor, I want to see a yard in this country that would have the operating footprint to accomodate that thing.....huge waste of land resources, especially in an urban area. (on top of the fact that there are too many failure scenarios to render the thing useless, including the inevitable blind shove into the pit with the train biting the turntable.)
Just thought of an improvement, folks:
they could eliminate some of those locomotives/trackmobiles/whatevers by spinning the 750-foot turntable fast enough to utilize centrifugal force to propel these 140-ton cars into the proper (and properly-aligned) track.
15 cars is about 4 million lbs that the turntable is going to be rotating. Just think of stopping a 15 car train with 1/2 inch precision. Yah!
All right--I counted as many as 15 cars on that turntable. That's 750 feet minimum diameter, or about 35 tracks wide.
Now, where are you going to find railroad trackage that you can steer from various compass points to a common center? Right--you'd have to acquire the land!
Just how many locomotives are going to have to give up their prime movers to power this thing?
And then there's the matter of all of the other problems previously mentioned.
(too bad they don't have a razzberry smiley to go with this!)
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