Gigantic Freight Car classification turntable?

[Anonymous]

...If the air brakes connections were already in the knuckle coupler like they are on in some light rail applications that would speed things up a lot

I rember when DPM used to lament this shortcoming of the otherwise automatic coupler.  Quite some time ago, I put a ton of thought into solving this problem.  I built a couple prototypes and subsequently did a patent search.  One patent turned out to be very similar to what I had prototyped.  I have not studied the current LRT applications that you mention.  My general conclusion was that the invention could be made practical, but overcoming the financial inertia to convert the entire North American car fleet would be nearly impossible.  Furthermore, the invention would have to be compatible with non-converted cars during the conversion.

A feature of my invention was to include a second train line and a corresponding second set of ports in the air coupling device.  This second train line would be connected to small a pneumatic cylinder on each car that would operate the bleeder valve.  So a cut of cars would not need to be walked and manually bled prior to switching.  You would just cut in air to the bleeder line and all the cars would bleed automatically.  

[Anonymous]

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-america/united-states-pennsylvania/937756-1.html

paving railroad yards could speed up transfer because--

1. Reduce the time that carknockers have to walk

2. Trucks can pull up anywhere in the yard to load and unload bulk cars...

[CopCarSS]

The following consultants involved with this project are Modjeski & Masters, Gannett Fleming Traction Power Department, Macton Turntables, Star Track Railroad Crossings, Ansaldo Signal Company, Tracks Unlimited, Trackmobile and Genset Locomotive Manufacturers.

Mr. Wertz,

I've noticed no railroads in your consultant list. Have you had any feedback at all from any of the Class 1's (I'm guessing something as capital intensive as this could only be undertaken by a larger company)?

[Anonymous]

  The problem is not the sorting but the time it takes for the Car knockers to reconnect all those brake hoses and change workout break shoes...If the air brakes connections were already in the knuckle coupler like they are on in some light rail applications that would speed things up a lot

[Anonymous]

Dear Sir:

Thank you for your response.  The reliability factor for the railcars sequencing turntables system is 100% less any extreme act of God or extreme act of war. 

The railcars sequencing turntables should, upon performance, replace the existing freight classification system.  It's application will be where there is a heavy concentration of multi-modal freight exchange activity.

The following consultants involved with this project are Modjeski & Masters, Gannett Fleming Traction Power Department, Macton Turntables, Star Track Railroad Crossings, Ansaldo Signal Company, Tracks Unlimited, Trackmobile and Genset Locomotive Manufacturers.

 Sincerely,

 Fred H. Wertz

[Semper Vaporo]

What is the energy requirement to move just the 1,018-ft diameter DISK turntables, WITHOUT any rail cars on them?

The animation also fails to demonstrate the stop, secure the cars, uncouple, pull forward, stop, secure the cars, uncouple, pull forward sequence and the time that consumes.  The animation just show the couplers magically separating sideways when the turntables start to move.

 

[TH&B]

I agree with the last post. Dogs could also be used in a hump yard though.

 

To compare , do an animation of a normal hump yard and cars would smoothly separate and Run into the varius tracks and look very efficient. Ordinary switching is slow because it's regulated to death almost. The turn table idea would only work well if you relaxed some working rules, PLUS the mechanical complexity.

[Anonymous]

I looked at the animation again.  It is mesmerizing, but I think it needs to slow down and become clearer and more convincing as to how it is superior to conventional yard switching.  They say it uses less space than a conventional yard.  Show me an animation that first clearly sets forth a complex switching objective.  Then move through it with both systems showing the individual moves and their elapsed time consumed.  And show the total area required as the operations of the two systems are compared.

I am not convinced about the role of the trackmobiles.  When they make a diverging move through that center point, I assume they are picking themselves up onto their tires and resetting themselves back onto their flanged wheels.  With all this turntable functionality, I would think the trackmobiles could simply be turned by turning the central hub like a mini turntable for the trackmobiles only. 

However, in the bigger picture, it seems to me that with all the automation that this system implies, the trackmobile motive power is archaic.  The table tracks could be equipped with traveling tractive dogs equipped with couplers that would engage a car's coupler and move the car.  The coupler on the dog could be automatically operated.  With a little more robotics, the dog could run down and pull the pin to make a cut, and then run back to grab the coupler of the lead car.  Being able to pull the pin would also enable the dog to reliably couple to a car with a closed knuckle.  These dogs could also serve to secure the cars during rotation of the turntables. 

Like others have suggested, I would like to see the details of the turntables and the drive system.  Surely these details have been worked out and developed to a practical concept if this is being seriously proposed to the railroad industry. 

[trainboyH16-44]

A 9000' long train????? 

I think they're marketing to CN  

[exPalaceDog]

R.S.T., LLC has developed a methodology for reducing idle railcar time and other inefficiencies inherent to the railroad industry.  Specifically, the Railcar Sequencing Turntable which provides a superior alternative for handling railcars than the technology that currently exists in the Railroad Industry.  This approach (in patent pending status with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) should reduce railcar dwell time and overall shipping time by upwards of 28%. 

The Old Dog would suggest that looking at the various sorting algorithms from a basic computer science course might give better results. Running a RR yard is a good deal like doing a "tape" sort.

Have fun

 

[TomDiehl]

I didn't see it on the "simulation," is the date on the animation April 1st?

[ndbprr]

A 9000' long train????? 

[trainboyH16-44]

Ed, I hate to say this, but I don't think he's coming back....

For more information, please visit our website at http://www.freightturntables.com/.  There is an animated presentation under the FAQ section on the site.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at 973-729-2904 or by email at [e-mail]. 

 

[MP173]

Mr. Wertz:

Thanks for coming on to explain your concept.  How close are you to implementing your first system?

I think your system has some merit, but am curious about the practical applications of it.  For instance, often dwell time is based on outbound schedules of the trains, often once per day for major terminals.  Wouldnt the dwell time basically remain the same, or would this require multiple daily movements (such as intermodal schedules) to be effective?

Time is money.  The "just in time" or Kanban method of inventory control implemented back in the 80's in the US was radical at the time, but drastically improved ROI by increasing asset turnover. 

Also, what reliability factor do you foresee for this system?  How would you address the issues raised by some on this forum that it is not a practical application?

Finally, do see this radically replacing the existing freight classification system, or application only in certain geographic markets?

ed

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your interest in Railcars Sequencing Turntables, LLC.  I am the Co-Chairman of the company, Fred H. Wertz.  Below is some more detailed information on the functionality of the turntables to address your concerns.

Railroad Industry Landscape

According to Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway Company managers, a train's railcar is actually moving only 18% of the time and sitting in a yard or other facility for the remaining 82% of the time.  When sitting, the railcar is controlled by the railroad 55% of the time and customer 27% of the time.  Each 9,000-foot-long mainline train moves goods valuing $5 million to $10 million, unfinished to finished.  In such a lucrative industry, modernizing operations will have an exponential affect on total revenue. 

The Railroad Industry faces problems that prevent it from running as efficiently as possible.  At this time, there is not enough capacity with mainline trackage.  Additionally, the handling of railcars at interchanges, flat yards, and hump yards is inefficient.  These problems prevent the handling of a number of railcars in a timely manner, decreasing the amount of revenue created by these operations.

The R.S.T. Solution

The mainline 9,000 foot long consist (train) follows the mainline track lead half way across the turntables.  Then, the head of consist and end of consist is simultaneously pushed onto the turntables and cut in blocks of railcars according to the predirected AEI (Automatic Equipment Indicator) or IRBO (Innovative Railroad Blocking Optimizer) manifest.

Railcars Sequencing Turntables can accommodate 60 foot railcars, 90 foot railcars, three (3) articulated container flatcars, five (5) articulated container flatcars, switching locomotives, mainline haul locomotives, track mobiles simultaneously, inbound and outbound.

The three (3) turntables total 1,018 feet in diameter and operate in unison or separately clockwise and counter clockwise.  All of this blocking and spotting can be accomplished in two hours or less on 18 acres of land, having a solar-paneled structural steel dome roof.

R.S.T., LLC has developed a methodology for reducing idle railcar time and other inefficiencies inherent to the railroad industry.  Specifically, the Railcar Sequencing Turntable which provides a superior alternative for handling railcars than the technology that currently exists in the Railroad Industry.  This approach (in patent pending status with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) should reduce railcar dwell time and overall shipping time by upwards of 28%.  The 24 index tracks on the turntables serve, at all tangents of the 360 degree circumference, the following functions:

• Industrial park tenants
• Intermodal top pick container transfer
• Staging trackage for short line access and consist rebuilding for continuous main line haulage
• Locomotive service and repair shop
• Railcar repair and wheel truing shop
• Railcar barge float service
• Specialty product facilities
• Electrical power substation

For more information, please visit our website at http://www.freightturntables.com/.  There is an animated presentation under the FAQ section on the site.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at 973-729-2904 or by email at [e-mail].

 

[SactoGuy188]

The idea may sound crazy, but I think there's one place they should try this idea: the upcoming replacement for the Union Pacific yard in El Paso, TX that's supposed to be built just across the border in New Mexico. There's plenty of space there to put in such an installation.

[Murphy Siding]

 In order to make this contraption even more complex and expensive how about using an hydraulic or electromagnetic retarder system (like they use in humpyards) to stop the cars on the turntable rings? Can these be modified to hold cars in place on a section of track in lieu of setting the brakes? And why not use  under-track mounted car pushers to replace the trackmobiles? We can get the cost up well over half a billion, right?

 "half a billion"??????  ONLY HALF???? That won't even cover the lobbying to get the Federal funds to start the engineering study.

 The one thing that I will say in defense of this company is that they are proposing a privately funded project on private land. The Feds may blow a lot of money but they do not spend very much on freight rail, which is, after all, a private sector undertaking (and makes money) in the US. Its up to investors to bankroll this(or not).

The information on the link mentions using money from *grants*.  Wouldn't those be grants from the government?

[carnej1]

 In order to make this contraption even more complex and expensive how about using an hydraulic or electromagnetic retarder system (like they use in humpyards) to stop the cars on the turntable rings? Can these be modified to hold cars in place on a section of track in lieu of setting the brakes? And why not use  under-track mounted car pushers to replace the trackmobiles? We can get the cost up well over half a billion, right?

 "half a billion"??????  ONLY HALF???? That won't even cover the lobbying to get the Federal funds to start the engineering study.

 The one thing that I will say in defense of this company is that they are proposing a privately funded project on private land. The Feds may blow a lot of money but they do not spend very much on freight rail, which is, after all, a private sector undertaking (and makes money) in the US. Its up to investors to bankroll this(or not).

[Semper Vaporo]

 In order to make this contraption even more complex and expensive how about using an hydraulic or electromagnetic retarder system (like they use in humpyards) to stop the cars on the turntable rings? Can these be modified to hold cars in place on a section of track in lieu of setting the brakes? And why not use  under-track mounted car pushers to replace the trackmobiles? We can get the cost up well over half a billion, right?

 "half a billion"??????  ONLY HALF???? That won't even cover the lobbying to get the Federal funds to start the engineering study.

[carnej1]

 In order to make this contraption even more complex and expensive how about using an hydraulic or electromagnetic retarder system (like they use in humpyards) to stop the cars on the turntable rings? Can these be modified to hold cars in place on a section of track in lieu of setting the brakes? And why not use  under-track mounted car pushers to replace the trackmobiles? We can get the cost up well over half a billion, right?

[tree68]

I'll wait until someone builds one on their train layout. THAT might work.Maybe.

Chico

It'll have to have so many uncoupling magnets that it will affect compasses for miles...

[TomDiehl]

Where to stop and make a cut would already be calculated by the computer prior to the trains arrival, no doubt.  And if it takes another cut due to cars lengths it's not that big a deal.  I think the idea behind this is to eliminate the wait for the conductor to walk back and throw all the switches needed to get the cut to the right track.  And that's after getting permission to pull out on the lead, which is  probably the longest wait of all.

The computer may make calculations, but it won't be going between the cars to close the brake line valves, then pulling the pin for the first breakpoint, then walking (running is a safety violation) to the next breakpoint in the train to repeat the operation. The computer animation shows the train magically breaking (I guess they're using Kadee uncoupler magnets) and recoupling itself, and notice how fast the brake lines are reconnected and the test is made after recoupling the train.

[KCSfan]

Chico: Does the full scale version come with "the helpful hand" reaching down out of the clouds to fix all the little malfunctions?

No, but I bet they'll have a 1-800 number to call a customer support center in India or Pakistan.

Mark

[mudchicken]

Chico: Does the full scale version come with "the helpful hand" reaching down out of the clouds to fix all the little malfunctions?

[Steam Is King]

I'll wait until someone builds one on their train layout. THAT might work.Maybe.

Chico

[Anonymous]

Thinking outside of the box is fine, but the lucrative railroad market has always attracted more than its share of ideas that were too far outside of the box.  Here is one:

http://www.scripophily.net/hollocspeedt1.html

(Sorry Charles.  I did not see that you had already posted the Holman Absurdity.)

 

[CShaveRR]

OK--now look at the speed of this operation.  The animation shows a train pulling (or shoving) onto the table.  Immediately when it stops, the table starts rotating to its next destination. 

Now, reality.  The cars are pulled (or shoved) onto the table.  Brakes have to be set, and the rest of the cars cut away.  Doing this with air would be quicker at this point, but you'd lose time either bleeding the cars off or pumping them up for their next move.  My centrifugal-force line may have been flippant, but you can bet that would be a factor if the cars weren't properly secured for this ride that they take.

There's also a human factor--somebody's got to couple and uncouple these cars, apply and release the brakes, and all of the other simple little things that these folks seem to have forgotten.  I fail to see how crewmen riding on these moving surfaces all the time (with no control over their movement) can be a safe undertaking, much less moving from one table to the other, with no predictability of how far or in which direction they'll be going next (as someone said, this would have to be computerized for it to be more efficient than a conventional yard).  Too much back-and-forth with two surfaces moving in opposite directions, and even the best railroader is going to have to take some time to orient himself.

So I think we've now debunked both the time and space advantages for this system.  Cost wouldn't even come close to being effective.  So what, pray tell, is left as an excuse for wasting time with it?

[Murphy Siding]

All right--I counted as many as 15 cars on that turntable.  That's 750 feet minimum diameter, or about 35 tracks wide. 

Now, where are you going to find railroad trackage that you can steer from various compass points to a common center?  Right--you'd have to acquire the land!

Just how many locomotives are going to have to give up their prime movers to power this thing?

And then there's the matter of all of the other problems previously mentioned.

(too bad they don't have a razzberry smiley to go with this!)

Obviously, you need to think outside the box:  Any contraption that is this big and complicated to start with could, with just a little more work, and a couple hundred million $ more, be built with many layers of track.  For example, it could be 6 *stories* tall.  No big deal.  -Signed Rube Goldberg

[Semper Vaporo]

Here are a couple of examples of where the railroads failed to see the advantages of a new idea:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/fontaine/fontaine.htm

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/holman/holman.htm