I'm building a large HO layout in my basement..much to my wife's dismay I've pretty much taken over the whole basement with it. It contains plenty of gentle curves and realistic grades of up to 2%.
On the new layout I've been running longer trains...up to 50 cars in length...and have noticed that they take alot more skill to operate than the little five or ten car trains on my earlier layouts did.
One thing I've discovered is that "taking a run" at a grade almost always leads to derailment. On the other hand, a steady speed approaching the grade always works...the trick is to maintain that steady clip on the approach and on the ascent/descent. To me that seemed counter intuitive because as a (car/truck) driver I always take a run at the hill to avoid coming to a crawl at the top. But then I realized that cars and trucks don't have slack, and I figured it would be best to run my trains to minimize changes in slack as they go around the layout...and sure enough a steady speed regardless of grade leads to fewer derailments. The speed itself also seem to matter...too slow and I have problems on the downhill as cars take in slack and are held back by the locomotives... and on curves that pushing force has a lateral component that seems to encourage derailment. Too fast and I've got the opposite problem..the train basically pulls itself apart.
Is that bascially how it works in "real life" or do trains take a run at grades? Also, on curves is it important to accelerate through curves?
Ulrich wrote: I'm building a large HO layout in my basement..much to my wife's dismay I've pretty much taken over the whole basement with it. It contains plenty of gentle curves and realistic grades of up to 2%.On the new layout I've been running longer trains...up to 50 cars in length...and have noticed that they take alot more skill to operate than the little five or ten car trains on my earlier layouts did.One thing I've discovered is that "taking a run" at a grade almost always leads to derailment. On the other hand, a steady speed approaching the grade always works...the trick is to maintain that steady clip on the approach and on the ascent/descent. To me that seemed counter intuitive because as a (car/truck) driver I always take a run at the hill to avoid coming to a crawl at the top. But then I realized that cars and trucks don't have slack, and I figured it would be best to run my trains to minimize changes in slack as they go around the layout...and sure enough a steady speed regardless of grade leads to fewer derailments. The speed itself also seem to matter...too slow and I have problems on the downhill as cars take in slack and are held back by the locomotives... and on curves that pushing force has a lateral component that seems to encourage derailment. Too fast and I've got the opposite problem..the train basically pulls itself apart.Is that bascially how it works in "real life" or do trains take a run at grades? Also, on curves is it important to accelerate through curves?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Nothing like being slammed into a locomotive windshield by slack run-in on a downgrade. Most anyone with a modicum of training can run a locomotive but proper train handling, of which slack management is a big part, comes only with experience.
Will the new ECP brake system help manage slack action, too?
http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/534202
Our trains are short - typically three cars, but as many as 6 during peak season, but our "cargo" is a little pickier than the usual - we're hauling people, and over a profile that is anything but flat.
I don't spend any time in the seat although I do get some cab time, but as I learn the line I gain a greater appreciation for the engineer's ability to handle the train smoothly. Judicious use of throttle and brakes are critical. Even a small grade can be a challenge when starting and stopping.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jclass wrote: Will the new ECP brake system help manage slack action, too?http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/534202
NO!!!!! brakes are for stopping not controlling slack, slack is controlled by the terain and the speed of the engine which is controlled by the engineer. you controll slack by knowing the teritory, knowing what the rear is doing and running from the rear ... and feeling it in your seat.if it looks simple then the engineer got his act together.making your ride safe and smooth.
baberuth73 wrote: Nothing like being slammed into a locomotive windshield by slack run-in on a downgrade. Most anyone with a modicum of training can run a locomotive but proper train handling, of which slack management is a big part, comes only with experience.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
wabash1 wrote: jclass wrote: Will the new ECP brake system help manage slack action, too?http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/534202NO!!!!! brakes are for stopping not controlling slack, slack is controlled by the terain and the speed of the engine which is controlled by the engineer. you controll slack by knowing the teritory, knowing what the rear is doing and running from the rear ... and feeling it in your seat.if it looks simple then the engineer got his act together.making your ride safe and smooth.
Murphy Siding wrote: baberuth73 wrote: Nothing like being slammed into a locomotive windshield by slack run-in on a downgrade. Most anyone with a modicum of training can run a locomotive but proper train handling, of which slack management is a big part, comes only with experience.? Wouldn't slack run-in on a down grade slam you backwards, not forward? Like being rear-ended in a car?
Keep in mind there are usually three (Or was it four?) collisions that happen in a motor vehicle. The vehicle against something that acts upon it.. like a wall. The person inside the vehicle against the interior or restraint system, the cargo against the vehicle and probably the person as well. The 4th possibility applies to 18 wheelers, trailer against cab with it's own load. The 5th collision will sometimes be the driver thrown out to impact the ground, pole or whatever.
Rollovers are the worst. The driver gets to impact the cab interior in a multipule cartwheel breaking a bone or three on each hit until the entire object stops.
It will slam you back until it runs out of coupler slack and then the resulting JERK slams you forward. Slack works both ways when it runs into something that needs moving. I recall hearing stories of caboose crews being tossed out.
Ive had loose 5th wheels that slammed but never experienced bad slack on a train. Most of the touring railroads under steam Ive ridden were careful to ease into the inertia and not make slack run in or out. Maybe a little bit when stopping, cannot really avoid that.
Grades on model trains, I overpower my consist by weighted motive power and just march uphill at a low speed without wheelslip. Going down? Well, I just gather it in against the tender and hopefully the speed I selected will not cause the engine to be run off the track.
6 to 10 pounds of train on those Kadee couplers are good enough. They just dont fail like the plastic ones do. The plastics always fail on the first bad slack run.
What goes up at a speed comes down at the same speed or slower.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Murphy Siding wrote: baberuth73 wrote: Nothing like being slammed into a locomotive windshield by slack run-in on a downgrade. Most anyone with a modicum of training can run a locomotive but proper train handling, of which slack management is a big part, comes only with experience.? Wouldn't slack run-in on a down grade slam you backwards, not forward? Like being rear-ended in a car?Keep in mind there are usually three (Or was it four?) collisions that happen in a motor vehicle. The vehicle against something that acts upon it.. like a wall. The person inside the vehicle against the interior or restraint system, the cargo against the vehicle and probably the person as well. The 4th possibility applies to 18 wheelers, trailer against cab with it's own load. The 5th collision will sometimes be the driver thrown out to impact the ground, pole or whatever.Rollovers are the worst. The driver gets to impact the cab interior in a multipule cartwheel breaking a bone or three on each hit until the entire object stops.It will slam you back until it runs out of coupler slack and then the resulting JERK slams you forward. Slack works both ways when it runs into something that needs moving. I recall hearing stories of caboose crews being tossed out.Ive had loose 5th wheels that slammed but never experienced bad slack on a train. Most of the touring railroads under steam Ive ridden were careful to ease into the inertia and not make slack run in or out. Maybe a little bit when stopping, cannot really avoid that.Grades on model trains, I overpower my consist by weighted motive power and just march uphill at a low speed without wheelslip. Going down? Well, I just gather it in against the tender and hopefully the speed I selected will not cause the engine to be run off the track.6 to 10 pounds of train on those Kadee couplers are good enough. They just dont fail like the plastic ones do. The plastics always fail on the first bad slack run.What goes up at a speed comes down at the same speed or slower.
Hi everyone I am a locomotive engineer and Wabash is right, I have to know the route I operate on like the back of my hand. It is nothing for me on a 130 car coal train to have the head 1/3 of the train going downhill, the next 1/3 comeing uphill and the rear 1/3 going downhill it is a matter of using the throttle to controll slack, durring the trip if I can keep the conductor on the engine it is a good trip. I only use the trains air brakes along with the dynamic brakes to control train speed on a long downhill grade, as soon as the head of the train nears the bottom of the hill I realese the brakes ease back on the dynamic and start adding power to the engines to streach the train out. I do not like to have my train comeing appart (i.e.) the conductor has to handle a 85pound knuckle.
Rodney
wabash1 wrote: NO!!!!! brakes are for stopping not controlling slack, slack is controlled by the terain and the speed of the engine which is controlled by the engineer.
NO!!!!! brakes are for stopping not controlling slack, slack is controlled by the terain and the speed of the engine which is controlled by the engineer.
Unless, of course, you are using stretch braking.
Murphy Siding wrote: Can you elaborate on this please? I've seen a local ethanol / grain train at a rural crossing that was really revving up on the lead end, approaching another hill, while the back end was still coming down a hill, and running in the slack. It looked to me, like a lot of work, to control the slack action on a hilly line.
Most likely the engineer was trying to "run away" from his train's rear end (keeping the slack stretched) as it came down the hill (in addition to running at the hill). Or else he was coming off of dynamic braking and going to power.
Falls Valley RR wrote: It will slam you back until it runs out of coupler slack and then the resulting JERK slams you forward. Slack works both ways when it runs into something that needs moving. I recall hearing stories of caboose crews being tossed out.
I never heard of someone being tossed out, but I have heard of guys in the caboose getting broken ribs and limbs from slack action. I've had a slack run-in give me an instant 15mph boost in speed, as well as a slack run-out almost bringing me to a stop.
Running freight train became so much easier (at least as far as slack management goes) when the cabeese were removed. One still must control the slack in order to protect the lading, but mostly slack control is used to keep the train intact.
Thank you for the memory jog on the speed decel or boost. I recall the milk tanker had no baffles and when one finished the stop at the traffic light all that liquid is gathered up at the front. Guess what? It now slams to the back of the tank some 30 feet away literally trying to drag the truck brakes and all backwards a few feet. That is probably as close as I want to deal with such forces.
Thank you for the clarification of the caboose crew. I wonder if the Engineer is made responsible for crew injuries due to slack? Did such a thing exist in the steam days? Certainly the boom falls on that engineer if he burns the rails too much with wheelslip for example.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Thank you for the clarification of the caboose crew. I wonder if the Engineer is made responsible for crew injuries due to slack?
Thank you for the clarification of the caboose crew. I wonder if the Engineer is made responsible for crew injuries due to slack?
Yes, absolutely, unless the slack action was from a source other than train-handling, such as air hose separation or a broken knuckle or drawbar (causing air loss), although a broken knuckle and/or drawbar brings along their own set of questions....
Can't say from experience regarding steam locomotives, but I would guess the situation would be similar.
Thank you for all the info. I still am not clear about the electronic braking. Can it be used kinda like the stability control on car wheels? Part of a train would be braking where another part is not, all in varying degrees, to reduce the potentially destructive forces in play; making it easier for the engineer to control the train?
Can it be used kinda like the stability control on car wheels? Part of a train would be braking where another part is not, all in varying degrees, to reduce the potentially destructive forces in play;
Nope! Either all of the brakes are applying, are on, or releasing. What the electronic air brakes have over regular air brakes is that they 1) apply uniformly at the same time throughout the train and 2) if too much air is applied, some can be released without releasing the brakes on the entire train. You can't apply the air brake to a certain portion of the train.
.
Air Brakes are big dumb brutes who get nothing passed on to the shoes, a little bit of reduction passed on OR ALL OF IT BIG HOLE.
The Airbrake system on a train cannot "Pick" one axle to put a brake on. If it could, it is not agile enough to keep up. Even if it could, the engine will be exhausted trying to feed all of those little demanding air brakes working individually. No. Airbrakes are a all for one and one for all within the limits of the piping.
Electronic braking on cars can be put onto trains, trucks or anything else but I consider them rather a bit of a ...**searches for word... blashemy. Sometimes you just gotta jog a wheel or a pair loose to get your vehicle where you want it to. You can load down a car with all the fancy frankenbraking driven by the very best in nanny controls but it cannot ever make up for very bad drivers.
Now, ABS (Anti Locking Braking) will have potential for saving flat spots on steel wheels if you could build one stout and big enough to withstand railroad duty with zero maintaince. Ive used this on big trucks over the years and let's just say there are at least a dozen lives including my own saved time after time by this wonderful system.
Having thought on this slack issue, I wonder if the UK has snuck one over on us enjoying thier buffers in addition to thier couplers.
Murphy Siding wrote: wabash1 wrote: jclass wrote: Will the new ECP brake system help manage slack action, too?http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/534202NO!!!!! brakes are for stopping not controlling slack, slack is controlled by the terain and the speed of the engine which is controlled by the engineer. you controll slack by knowing the teritory, knowing what the rear is doing and running from the rear ... and feeling it in your seat.if it looks simple then the engineer got his act together.making your ride safe and smooth.wabash 1: Can you elaborate on this please? I've seen a local ethanol / grain train at a rural crossing that was really revving up on the lead end, approaching another hill, while the back end was still coming down a hill, and running in the slack. It looked to me, like a lot of work, to control the slack action on a hilly line.
I would be happy to ... I will atempt to exsplain using trailer towing hints, In the case you quoted I would say yes the engineer was out running his slack while keeping speed up to climb the hill. If we was running a train ( people here like coal trains) lets say 78 car manifest train train is 6750 long and 5400 tons.the 1st 1/3 of train is auto racks and a few box cars. 2nd 1/3 is mostly empty gons and a few lumber racks rear 1/3 is loaded tank cars and weighing 3600 tons. ( yes these trains are built like this and are a pain to run) we are running at 50 mph, we are approching a hill from the bottom up to the top is 3100ft cresting would take about 250 ft before starting down. the down hill is 2100 .then leavel for 1200 ft then climb another hill this one being 1620 ft then a small crest again then down hill 940 ft then up hill again then a drop of 3100ft and then leval ground again/ here is how i would approach this ( 2 dash 9 ge junk) just as i was about 500 ft from the start of hill i would be throttling up and get to notch 8 as i toped the hill and started down i would hold notch 8 til both engines and a car or to crested then drop a notch as things strech out drop another and yes speed is dropping to. ( if you were towing a trailer the trailer would push making you pick up speed so you brake why work your self to death let the hill drag your speed down, i usually drop 5-8 mph) as more of your train comes over the hill stress equalize on drawbars and knuckles. meaning i could get notches but not yet. now with this train part of it is hanging over the hill holding me back Im pulling on the front keeping it streached, result no slack no chance of breaking anything just keep the speed down .as i reach the start of next hill start getting notches pull the train to the top, after cresting i would still pull hard over the hill for alittle bit ( at this point the rear is down hill pushing ) your not going to out run the slack but the head end and rear are both down hill. now the head end is only down hill for a short time before going back up. at the time i start up i will go back to notch 8 and beg for more power( i never get it) and keep it til ive crested again . now im on my last down hill. ( remeber i said you haft to know where the rear is) The rear is close to the first bottom and is starting to streach out now with the rear streached the middle in a hole the rear is keeping it taught until it starts cresting. ( remember the head end is down hill and trying to gain speed) and yes now your running the train from both ends ( it gets better,) now its 940 ft down before the rear goes up hill. ( remember all the weight is in those tank cars on the rear that are now sloshing?) my speed is 48 mph the rear is in the hole head end is bottom the grade i cant out run it or ill speed and worse if i try and pull hard the conductor will haft to wake up and go walking. ( they hate that) and did i mention it was snowing ( they hate that) the only way ive ever made this work is keep pulling in notch 5 and maybe drop to notch 4 after rear streaches ( and it will let you know) then slowly work my way to idle and then if speed gets to much go to dynamic. you might feel a lite tap or slight push as the train lays into the engines that was holding it back. the other way was go to dynamic and hold about 500 amps til the rear crested the last hill.
Now in this example it is rip rap territory ( undulating) keeping a train tight streach is key to not getting a knuckle,. A draw bar or knuckle is only broken by to much forces in the oposite directions, in a down hill move if you start dropping throttle the train comes over the hill and bunches on the engines and you never feel anything then when close to bottom streach them out . with the little hill in the middle its just enough to make slack in train. so this was about using air to controll slack when train is totally streched on first hill yes some air is fine to slow down, but if you hold it thru the area you will get real slow and or stop, if you get air on the second down hill there is slack in train and the train stays in the shape it was when air is applyed. when it finally streaches snap. conductor walking again someone pulles the tapes your 2 hours longer getting home, not a good day, ( conductors hate sweating or getting thier hair messed up ask ed) , Now jeff said dynamic and air, correct if you bunch your train then use air for speed controll you get rid of air and make sure rear is releasing before you apply power, ( you notice engineers make referance to rear ends alot) we dont say this because we have a fetish about rear ends,( well i do but thats another day) you run a train streached and that is done from the rear. and in the fog its fun,
Also i mentioned auto racks on the head end for a reason a train of auto racks (75 cars) will give you 2 1/2 auto racks of slack these should be streached stopped, they will roll out and could cause a problem, and they do magnify the forces either slack in ( the slam that send yo to the windshield) or slack out ( ouch my hemmoroids) and it is something that cant be exsplained only felt to understand I hope I answered some of the questions Yes I was long winded but i hope it helped
I hate trains like that.
In rolling terrain I'll do a lot of stretch braking. The problem with that is we can no longer "power" brake, nothing above run 4 with the air set, so it makes for a bit more of a challenge.
Also, you can't always run track speed while controlling the slack correctly. Like said above, oftentimes you must notch back before cresting a hill to let speed drop a bit so you don't get going too fast down the other side. It all depends on the train length, train makeup, and the terrain. Every trip is a bit different, and most every train has to be handled differently.
wabash1: That was an excellent explanation. Thanks!
In your example, you note the different type of cars, and how they affect train handling. Is the engineer given a list of cars and loads in his train, so he can study(?) it, before taking off?
It's obvious, from your example, that the engineer has to know his train and the territory. How do railroads familiarize their engineers with the territory? Are there training runs, riding with engineers familiar with the territory?
Ulrich wrote:Yes, excellent responses....sounds like running a train involves alot of skill. That's probably why engineers start out as brakemen for a few years prior to becoming engineers. It's not the kind of job you can bring someone in from the outside and train them in three weeks.
You might be able to teach them to run the locomotive in three weeks. Getting it over the road, as has been so vividly illustrated, is the challenge.
Personally I would love the drive a train. Once. That's it. Trucking I can show you lots.
I feel a monkey can be trained to DO anything with equiptment but it is the experience, understanding of dangers and availible options combined with the flipping of the right switches makes it all happen safely.
I am somewhat consider myself A+ in mountain driving as I prefer this driving over all others. But I cannot stand to think of many cars attached together in a train hanging over one hill while running off another or worse trying to roll backwards off a third. Yeesh.
One post in this thread refered to a Junker locomotive. Tell me, why would a engineer consider a choo choo junk? Im ignorant about these things you see...
Falls Valley RR wrote: One post in this thread refered to a Junker locomotive. Tell me, why would a engineer consider a choo choo junk? Im ignorant about these things you see...
Poor performance. Some models have a history of same.
I'm sure those in the trucking industry have similar opinions about certain makes and models of semi-tractors (or trailers, for that matter). Of course, opinions vary, so what one engineer thinks is is junk, another might well have as his first choice.
Does it count as a "Junker" locomotive if it stays in the eastern part of Germany and is used to transport minor royalty and large landowners who support Kaiser Wilhelm? - al
al-in-chgo wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: One post in this thread refered to a Junker locomotive. Tell me, why would a engineer consider a choo choo junk? Im ignorant about these things you see...Does it count as a "Junker" locomotive if it stays in the eastern part of Germany and is used to transport minor royalty and large landowners who support Kaiser Wilhelm? - al
Murphy Siding wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: One post in this thread refered to a Junker locomotive. Tell me, why would a engineer consider a choo choo junk? Im ignorant about these things you see...Does it count as a "Junker" locomotive if it stays in the eastern part of Germany and is used to transport minor royalty and large landowners who support Kaiser Wilhelm? - al While not everyone will get your joke, some of us do!
I thought Junkers fly. Ya know the planes. =)
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