Well, it seems to me that ever since Abraham Lincoln represented the Illinois Central in the 1850s, the principle almost always holds that the railroads got there first, so people crossing the track and building nearby had better heed to their own safety and comfort and not expect the RR to pick its way around the villagers / suburbanites.
I think you're right that the merger will eventually clear. Postponed for a time by red tape? Maybe, the STB can be slow but probably not nearly so much as the late unlamented ICC. People who want to take their EJ&E heritage pictures might not want to wait for spring 2008.
An "expensive model collector"
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=27100
Barrington, other suburbs oppose railroad's plan
(Crain's) - Far northwest suburban towns are lining up to oppose Canadian National Railway Co.'s purchase of a lightly used rail line to relieve train traffic congestion in Chicago and close-in suburbs. The suburban route is key to the railroad's plan to abandon tracks along the city's lakefront and in the South Loop, where freight trains have long been seen by Mayor Richard M. Daley and developers as an impediment to further gentrification. Barrington and neighboring municipalities predict Canadian National's plans to significantly increase freight train volumes through their towns would lead to nightmarish traffic conditions. And residents worry that noise from lumbering locomotives will shatter the area's bucolic character, undermining property values and small businesses. "Traffic is difficult now," says Carol Nelson, a Lake Barrington resident. "I can't even imagine what's going to happen if we have 20 trains a day coming through. The serenity, peacefulness and quality of life will change quite drastically if that happens." CN expects about 15 more freight trains passing through Barrington on top of the three to five trains a day already using the track on the 198-mile route from Waukegan to Gary, Ind. Train volumes are likely to increase even more next year as CN hauls more freight into Chicago from a new container port in British Columbia. Within two years, the port will be able to handle at least a million shipping containers a year. Barrington and at least six neighboring towns intend to lodge objections with the U.S. Surface Transportation Board in hopes of blocking or restricting CN's acquisition of U.S. Steel Corp.'s Elgin Joliet & Eastern Railway for $300 million. Barrington and neighboring suburbs announced Monday that they have formed a coalition to oppose CN's plan. The rail issue is expected to be the primary topic at Barrington's village board meeting tonight. Montreal-based Canadian National says the route would allow it to move trains through the Chicago area faster and peel some of freight trains off routes where they now idle for hours or creep past street crossings because tracks ahead are jammed with other trains. "This needs to be viewed as providing relief to the entire surface transportation system," a railroad spokesman says. Completion of the sale is contingent on the transportation board's approval. A representative of the board declined to comment on Canadian National's application. Rail industry observers say the board has wide-ranging authority to require CN to install sound walls, underpasses or other remedies to address environmental issues. Observers say a motivated and well-financed opposition could delay a decision on the sale for months and that approval of the sale could be challenged in federal court. But the likelihood of Barrington and other towns killing the deal is, at best, a long shot. "For them to meddle in interstate commerce like that, it's just not going to happen," Chicago railroad attorney Michael Blaszak says.
The Barrington coalition will get the most publicity, but there are some south-suburban communities playing NIMBY, also. This is from UTU's website:
Traffic on Frankfort area EJ&E tracks would increase from about six trains a day to 28, said Mayor Jim Holland. That could affect motorists' safety, tie up traffic at railroad crossings and produce more noise in residential areas.
"I can see no benefit to my constituents," said Holland, who attended a committee of the whole meeting Wednesday to discuss the topic.
Canadian National Railway Co. announced in September that it wanted to buy the EJ&E -- which runs through Plainfield, Crest Hill, Joliet, New Lenox, Frankfort and Mokena in Will County -- for $300 million.
The company said it needs the tracks to detour around bottlenecks in Chicago. Traffic will increase on the U.S. Steel-owned EJ&E tracks if the deal is approved by the U.S. Surface Transportation Board.
Frankfort isn't the only community concerned about increased train traffic. The city of Barrington and several surrounding communities have formed a coalition to fight the sale.
"Given that freight trains can take up to 6 minutes to pass through a single railroad crossing -- even when things are running smoothly -- we are looking at the potential for a traffic flow nightmare of immense proportions in our near future," Barrington officials posted on their Web site, www.barrington-il.gov.
Holland said he has talked to the mayor of Barrington about the issue. He also has reached out to officials in the communities of New Lenox, Mokena, Matteson, Richton Park and Park Forest.
Plainfield, too, is concerned about the proposed sale's impact to the region, said Jim Testin, Plainfield's community development director. Village officials are reviewing CN's application before they decide on a course of action.
"It's just really coming to a head now," he said.
Joliet is less concerned with increased train traffic, however, said Jim Haller, the city's director of community and economic development. The EJ&E tracks, which run 198 miles from Waukegan in the north to Gary, Ind., and South Chicago in the east, have been in the area for more than 100 years, he said. And in past decades train traffic was much higher than it is now.
"Trains were coming in and out at all times," he said. "My guess is it (the increase in trains) would not be as many as back then."
Haller likened it to the fight by residents who live around O'Hare International Airport, which was there before the homes were built. He also said delays from trains chugging through Joliet wouldn't be that big of a deal.
"It really only takes a couple of minutes," he said. "I'm not as parochial as some of these folks who say, 'I don't want to be inconvenienced going to the Starbucks.'"
Also, Haller noted that a lot of goods area consumers want to purchase come in to the area by rail.
"So be careful what you wish for," he said. "Nobody likes trucks either, but everyone likes to shop at Wal-Mart and pay pennies for items. ... In an urban society, there are certain things you're going to have to contend with."
CN officials say rerouting its trains to the "outskirts" of Chicago will help alleviate the environmental impact on the city.
"CN is now engaged in preliminary discussions with communities on the EJ&E that would see increased rail traffic as a result of the transaction, and will work with these communities to jointly find ways of addressing any specific concerns," according to a press release issued in October.
Frankfort's Holland said the transportation board has 30 days after CN filed its application on Oct. 30 to decide if this is a minor railroad sale or a significant sale.
If it's deemed a minor case, communities along the route would have only 45 days to mount arguments against the sale or for concessions in how train traffic increases will be handled, Holland said.
"We have to worry about this today, tomorrow and next week," he said. "We have to have a plan of action and do what we can."
(This item appeared Nov. 15, 2007, in the Suburban Chicago News.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
What do people want, really?
To have a functioning transportation system that is going to be reliable, and bring their goods to market in a timely manner, smooth moving railroads have to be a part of it. The other option for these towns is increased truck traffic.... now wouldn't that be fun?
The problem is, that for the longest time in this country, the philosophy has been "me first" on both an individual as well as community level. Some places just don't care what the consequences are for other towns, just so long as their interests are protected. Daley wants the trains out of the lakefront, and sections of downtown. Now these suburbs don't want the trains by them. What are they to do? Well, unless they can get some powerful political support (i.e. senator, or congressman) in those towns, they will have to get used to the trains. As I have (probably) said before, most NIMBY's or community activists are a shortsighted bunch that can't see beyond defeating those they have chosen to make their enemy. Regardless of the greater good of any given project. And, as painful as it is, sometimes we don't have a choice, because there is this thing called "progress". Of course, you can't speak rationally to some of them because all they see is their little world being interrupted, or changed, and they don't want to deal with it, so they figure to stop what is going on, regardless of the larger picture, and the larger picture has little to do with them. Yes, change is difficult, and what not, but really, 20 trains a day averages out to less than a train an hour.
Sorry to finish on a cynical note, but this will become another Mayo vs DM&E type of saga, because you can bet, up in Barrington are some well connected people, who are, most likely, as of now, calling in as many political favors as they can muster. CN/EJ&E acquistion? It will happen, but not after a long drawn out fight. If the STB approves it, five minutes after that, someone or some group will be filing suit in court to stop something, or get some last minute concession. That's always how it goes. If it goes through and these towns get short shrift from the STB, and the courts, I will be very surprised.
Seems to me that these people would be better advised to spend the money they are wasting on lawyers and publicists on sound walls and grade separation in advance of the traffic increase.
What's to prevent the new traffic coming through even if the EJ&E remains a separate entity. Haven't these folks ever heard of run-through and trackage rights agreements?
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Chuck
The EJE ROW is a very valuable property, as we have discussed previously. It fits in quite nicely with the CN system.
However, I do believe residents of those communities have a concern. If traffic swells to the point that local automobile traffic is affected, then it can certainly affect the local quality of living. Hmmm does that sound like a traitor to you? Let me ask you this...what happens when CN decides to swap crews in downtown ___________(fill in the blank with a community) and blocks every crossing on all the way thru town for 20 minutes?
I have personally been delayed 20 minutes by such an event. Big deal you say, get over it...well, what if that is either you or one of yours in the ambulance or the fire truck is attempting to get to a local fire, or perhaps ....I can go on .
These communities have a point. Let me add the disclaimer right now that not only am I a railfan, but a CN shareholder, so you know where I am not only in my hobby, but also financially.
Perhaps a few questions should be asked...What shape is the EJE track in? Is this 25mph or 60mph track? That will affect the time it takes for train passage. Where are the sidings? If the line is single track, there will be a considerable number of meets daily. Do those sidings block the roads/streets? It isnt much of an issue when 3 trains a day run on a line, but for 25 per day, the dynamics of operation change drastically.
Is the ROW grade separated from streets? If not, does each community have at least one overpass? If not, who pays for it? The city or CN, or both?
This is definately going to change the landscape of Chicago railroading. Soon you will have Mayor Daley vs Cities of Barrington, West Chicago, Joliet, Frankfort, Griffith, et al.
Ah, politics.
BTW, the local US Representative for Indiana, Peter Viscloskey (one of the recently crowned Kings of Pork for "earmarks") has already thrown his hat in the ring, demanding CN provide ROW or tracks for the South Shore expansion to Valparaiso in the deal, since it appears "CN is not going to be a good citizen".
These are all pretty legitimate points. Think about this...how would you react if Waste Management announced they were establishing a new trash dump a couple of blocks from your house? Or even a transfer station for sorting trash/recycling? Or the State of Illinois Department of Corrections decides to build a prison near you? Or a local agency puts a homeless shelter, or a temporary housing for battered and abused women/children? (BTW, such as shelter exists two blocks from my house and there has never been an issue for me).
CN had to have expected this and no doubt some of the anticipated costs for the merger have been built in. The states and Feds will kick in some more (hang onto your wallets, as tax increases are coming in gangbusters) and compromise will be reached.
ed
Let's see now...I move to the Florida coastline area and complain about hurricanes and the summer heat...I then move to Nebraska and complain about tornadoes....then I move to a home next to O'Hare airport and complain about the airplane noise...then to the Pacific coast near L.A. and complain about the noise of the waves crashing onto the shore....then finally to Barrington and complain about the EJ&E moving more trains than they did sixty years ago...HMMMMM, seems to me the Barrington snobs better get their big rich noses out of the stratosphere or they might get frost bite on their nose tips due to the altitude (oh yes, then they would complain about planes from O'Hare hitting their noses!).
I can understand why Barrington is concerned. Even without additional trains on the J they have screwed themselves into a pretty awful traffic situation. I am saying that it is now so bad that if one wants to get through Barrington during the morning and evening rush hour, with the Metra trains blocking the crossings, one would best go around. Alternate routes via Toledo or St Louis come to mind.
The only streets crossing the J are the east-west Lake Cook Road, the North South Route 59-Barrington Road and Route 14-Northwest Hwy and a little to the Northeast of the downtown area, Lake Zurich Road, kind of an dditional route feeding traffic into the downtown area. All of these streets cross the UP-Metra and the J at grade
These street not only bring traffic into the downtown area (mainly commuters riding Metra Northwest Union Pacific-ex C&NW), but are major through routes for the area.
In addition, the J crosses the UP at grade just a little northwest of the downtown area. This suggest that J-CN freight trains will to stop for the higher priority Metra trains, but if they happen to be crossing and block Metra trains, it is gridlock city. Fortunately, the CN would have one factor in their favor. There are about mile long stretches of J track both to the (compass) northeast and southwest of the towntown Barrington area without any street crossings. One could assume that the home signals governing the J crossing of the UP would be set up to hold CN trains at these points.
Like many of the suburban towns around Chicago, Barrington owes its existance to commuter train service. The C&NW was a early provider of such service. As was common for the day, the downtown area of Barrington was built up close to the ROW, so elevation or trenching of the ROW or the building of underpasses for the highways would be enormously expensive. You can bet the entire amount of your next tax refund that such work will not be done without major public expenditures.
If you consider that many of the other communities along the J may have a similar situations and start to add up the total cost of infrastructure changes that could relieve the conditions, one might find that CREATE, the multi billion dollar Chicago plan to streamline train movement through the area might look like comparitive chump change.
Of course, there is always the do nothing but whine option. That flies because there are no tax issues. And, as long the general public believes that there are no personal expenditure consequences resulting from traffic congestion-such as lost time and higher fuel consumption we can just about be sure nothing will change.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Is it possible that down here in along the BNSF Chicago to Aurora corridor, that the people are used to it? Between LaGrange and Western Springs, there are 4 streets, Wolf, Gilbert, Brainard and Wolf Rd that cross the BNSF at grade, traffic on all of these streets is no treat in morning, or evening rush hours. But, I don't hear too much in the way of complaining from fellow residents. There is a "by-pass" of sorts for downtown LaGrange, but it involves crossing the IHB tracks, so it's not really an option.
I can understand the aggravation from traffic, and things like that, but, what is supposed to be done? The railroads, the government, and the tax payers cannot keep everyone happy. Look I know about fighting and losing. Back in the early 80's after the Hillside Quarry closed down, and had remained idle for a couple of years, a company bought it with the intent of making it a landfilld. The long and short of it was, the residents lost, and the landfill went in. As far as vermin, smell, and noise problems went, they were, from what I understand, less than anticipated. So, sometimes change is inevitable, and one just simply has to get used to it. Not everyone is going to be happy with the increase in rail traffic, but they will get used to it, just like every other change.
Think about how much change has take place in your community since it's founding. Now imagine what each place would be like, if the citizens fought every change, and nothing ever progressed. Change and progress are inevitable, they aren't always welcome, but they are inevitable. And that is the reality of the situation.
So, while the changes are going to very real, I think some compromises can and will be made, I can't see, in this case, where anyone has a choice.
These people are stupid, they move into an area that already has track's expecting that some day whoever owns them will just go out of business and the annoying trains will be gone from there lives with the tracks removed with a bike trail put in its place
I hope it goes to court and the Judge tells them all "If you dont like it, move"
granted that the plainfield crossing can really get backed up when the trains come through, thats not the RR's fault though thats poor planning on the towns part counting on the railroad going out of business some day and pulling up there tracks.
Also in the last year or so they closed and have ripped up sections of old Normantown road that ran along the tracks and there putting in all sorts of new subdivisions, condos's and schools right in there along the tracks
This whole thing is just another classic example of people expecting the rest of the world to adhere to there own stupidity
jeaton wrote: In addition, the J crosses the UP at grade just a little northwest of the downtown area. This suggest that J-CN freight trains will to stop for the higher priority Metra trains, but if they happen to be crossing and block Metra trains, it is gridlock city. Fortunately, the CN would have one factor in their favor. There are about mile long stretches of J track both to the (compass) northeast and southwest of the towntown Barrington area without any street crossings. One could assume that the home signals governing the J crossing of the UP would be set up to hold CN trains at these points.
If Canadian National would double track the J's mainline from a point about 7500-ft. north of Cuba Road to a point about 7500-ft. south of Main St. (Lake Cook Rd.), that alone would ensure the quick passage of trains through the most street traffic sensitive parts of Barrington. The right of way certainly is wide enough to support a 2nd main track.
In Barrington the controlled signal governing the J's southbound movements over the C.& N.W.'s Harvard Subdivison was moved quite a distance northwards a few years ago. Today that signal is just a short distance south of the Lake Zurich Rd. crossing. Just about any train stopped for that signal will clear the Cuba Rd., Lake Zurich Rd., Northwest Highway, and Hough Street crossings.
My first reaction is a deep sigh. Second one is to wonder if any of these NIMBY twits have ever, ever stopped to think about anyone except 'me first'. Then the third thought which crosses my mind is... the dear ol' USA is now set up in such a way as to heavily favour the NIMBY; although in this case (and the CP/DM&E case) (oh yeah, and Abo Canyon on the Transcon and rail/highway crossings on the Sunset) it seems unlikely that they will be able to actually block the merger, they can create enough of a court hassle to delay it long enough to, perhaps, make it less economically attractive. All they have to do is provide the legal talent, and since that is in plentiful supply in the towns which are b____ching, it will probably come free for them -- and most lawyers (Gabe excepted!!!) seem to have no morals at all, which doesn't help.
Bottom line? Decreased productivity and economic activity in the whole region; decreased competitiveness across much of the eastern US. Does anyone really wonder why the dollar is dropping like a lead balloon in comparison to the loonie, the euro, the pound, the yen? Why all the manufacturing is going overseas? Just look around you and count the NIMBYs.
Go back to reaction one... sigh...
EJE818 wrote:The only reason Plainfield ripped up Normantown Road was to make sure their stupid whistle bad could go into effect. They didn't want to modify the crossing, so they just ripped it up.
I miss that road, back in the day they used to not even have a speed limit posted on it
Nice place to watch the freights on the siding there too
tomikawaTT wrote: Seems to me that these people would be better advised to spend the money they are wasting on lawyers and publicists on sound walls and grade separation in advance of the traffic increase.
Yes. YES! Well put. Seems like people wait until the school is closing from demographic reasons, the church is being closed by church authorities, the rail line is about to change hands and THEN they rush to make it 1970 again.
It is foolish and wasteful. Improvements like walls, berms and grade separation(s) would keep up the quality of life for the supposedly afflicted, as well as protect property values. - al
EJE818 wrote:It would be pretty hard to double track the EJ&E in some towns. A good example would be West Chicago where some of the homes are very close to the single track.
CN will take over the EJ&E.
If the houses are close to the Tracks then CN officials will have to upgrade the signals and controls for that stretch of single track. Some places on the IC and GTW were single tracked, and the CN has not upgraded them back to double track, yet.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
MP173 wrote:The EJE ROW is a very valuable property, as we have discussed previously. It fits in quite nicely with the CN system.However, I do believe residents of those communities have a concern. If traffic swells to the point that local automobile traffic is affected, then it can certainly affect the local quality of living. Hmmm does that sound like a traitor to you? Let me ask you this...what happens when CN decides to swap crews in downtown ___________(fill in the blank with a community) and blocks every crossing on all the way thru town for 20 minutes? I have personally been delayed 20 minutes by such an event. Big deal you say, get over it...well, what if that is either you or one of yours in the ambulance or the fire truck is attempting to get to a local fire, or perhaps ....I can go on .These communities have a point. Let me add the disclaimer right now that not only am I a railfan, but a CN shareholder, so you know where I am not only in my hobby, but also financially. Perhaps a few questions should be asked...What shape is the EJE track in? Is this 25mph or 60mph track? That will affect the time it takes for train passage. Where are the sidings? If the line is single track, there will be a considerable number of meets daily. Do those sidings block the roads/streets? It isnt much of an issue when 3 trains a day run on a line, but for 25 per day, the dynamics of operation change drastically.Is the ROW grade separated from streets? If not, does each community have at least one overpass? If not, who pays for it? The city or CN, or both?This is definately going to change the landscape of Chicago railroading. Soon you will have Mayor Daley vs Cities of Barrington, West Chicago, Joliet, Frankfort, Griffith, et al. Ah, politics.BTW, the local US Representative for Indiana, Peter Viscloskey (one of the recently crowned Kings of Pork for "earmarks") has already thrown his hat in the ring, demanding CN provide ROW or tracks for the South Shore expansion to Valparaiso in the deal, since it appears "CN is not going to be a good citizen".These are all pretty legitimate points. Think about this...how would you react if Waste Management announced they were establishing a new trash dump a couple of blocks from your house? Or even a transfer station for sorting trash/recycling? Or the State of Illinois Department of Corrections decides to build a prison near you? Or a local agency puts a homeless shelter, or a temporary housing for battered and abused women/children? (BTW, such as shelter exists two blocks from my house and there has never been an issue for me).CN had to have expected this and no doubt some of the anticipated costs for the merger have been built in. The states and Feds will kick in some more (hang onto your wallets, as tax increases are coming in gangbusters) and compromise will be reached. ed
not for plainfield, Route 30 & 59 runs right through town and Rt30 across RR tracks, plus they have the truck stop there on I55
They should just make Rt30 go under the RR, they did that to one crossing by my work on Orchard road in Aurora about 4 years ago
Just like the Mayo Clinic messing with the DM&E, these Chicagoland suburbanites will make some trouble, cause some delay, and make some lawyers wealthier, but they're unlikely to change the end result. By the way, I'm still trying to figure out what is REALLY motivating the Mayo Clinic to get its hands so dirty in the DM&E case. That one's way over the top.
My favorites out here in California are the ones who moved into new tract homes under the flight path for MCAS El Toro, and then started complaining about the noise from jet fighters. It's been years now, but (in my book anyway) they're still the champs!
Yep, true enough, and form some strange reason I don't recall hearing the folks in West Chicago who live near those same tracks crying the blues like the hoi paloi in Barrington!
EJE818 wrote:Haha, yes that is true, but I have heard West Chicago may also oppose this merger as well. Could you imagine how backed up the junction at JB tower would be? Think if the Metra STAR line does happen on top of the increased CN traffic how bad West Chicago would be. That would probably need to be grade separated.
Is that spelled P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S?
Mr_Ash wrote: not for plainfield, Route 30 & 59 runs right through town and Rt30 across RR tracks, plus they have the truck stop there on I55 They should just make Rt30 go under the RR, they did that to one crossing by my work on Orchard road in Aurora about 4 years ago
The only place Route 30 crosses the J is in East Joliet, and there's an overpass there.
Route 59 does duck under the J in Plainfield. Only Route 126 crosses the J at grade in downtown Plainfield. Twice, but one is the river route, maybe two trains a day.
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